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Offline jim72

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v-8 cooling issues
« on: July 10, 2013, 05:24:50 PM »
I am having no luck cooling my '71 v8 summer ride project. I am running the same 3core radiator that I had in my big block v8 (460 c.i.) maverick with no problems. The only thing I can think of is this 302 I have in the pinto has a roots type blower which generates a bit of heat. Is it possible the blower is the problem? Your thoughts, ideas or experiences are invited.

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2013, 06:54:17 PM »
The Pinto has a much smaller engine compartment & not a lot of areas to let the hot air escape. My '79 V8 Pinto ran cooler with the hood off but still needed a bigger radiator
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Offline Reeves1

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2013, 09:47:50 PM »
You using a product like water wetter ?

There is another one. Not sure/forgot the name. You cannot run it with antifreeze. Speed shops should have it.

Offline Norman Bagi

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2013, 10:02:02 PM »
The other option, just bite the bullet and get an aluminum radiator and an electric fan.  I don't have heat issues with that set up.

Offline 71HANTO

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2013, 11:22:42 PM »
Just to bring up a couple of nasties, was the engine rebuilt 60 over? The 302 "thin wall" block does not do well if the overbore is too close to the water jackets (the castings can really vary run to run year to year). 30 over should not be an issue. The next possibility is a blown head gasket. Does it blow bubbles with the radiator cap off when you rev it a little?
 
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Offline jim72

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 08:33:48 AM »
I am running a "water wetter" like product which is anti freeze compatable. It is however more effective in a plain water solution.  The engine is a stock bore 1993 rollercam. I am running a 2200 cfm electric fan which puts out quite a breeze. The radiator is a 3core copper which handeled a 460c.i. (385 series) big block in a shoe horn fit 72 maverick both on the street and at the drags with full nitrous passes. I have pulled the thermostat altogether. The only thing I can think of is that as the blower builds heat it transfers to the block and causes this problem. The reason I say this is because ther seems to be a coralation between blower heat buildup and engine heat buildup. If anyone can talk me down, please do.

Offline jim72

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2013, 08:40:38 AM »
Meant to mention in my last post that this car has no inner fender sheet metal as some rocket scientist was trying the cheap way out to make it a lightweight Therefore heat escape from the engine compartment shouldn't be an issue.

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2013, 09:53:39 AM »
For the street you want a thermostat. Without one there is no way to keep the temps under control around town. Try a 195 in it & see if your fan can keep up. The lack of inner fenders is a plus in this case but V8 Pintos are notorious for running hot without massive radiators & huge fans.
 
Are you running a serpentine belt with the reverse rotation water pump or did you go V-belt & change to a standard rotation pump?
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Offline jim72

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 11:27:31 AM »
I'm running a serpentine reverse direction pump. I had a 160* thermostat in it and it seems to behave better without.

Offline 289Wagon

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 12:29:09 PM »
 With no stat or one as low as 160* the coolant will just pass through the rad & not have time to cool down. You may want to try like a 195* stat so the coolant will have time in the rad & airflow. Consider most idiot lights don't come on until 260* or so.
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Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2013, 01:42:41 PM »
Yeah, 160 or 175 won't cut it. Most older EFI engines ran 195 & modern engines are running over 200 nowadays
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Offline jim72

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2013, 07:57:47 AM »
I pulled the blower last night and it helped immensely, however I got after it a couple of times and it went from a fairly stable 210*-215* to 260 and puking coolant. I will try a higher temp thermostat and see I that helps. If not there is going to be a 1971 small window hatch for sale (whole or pieces). My summer fun car is turning into anything but.

Offline oldkayaker

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2013, 12:51:40 PM »
Some random possibilities and/or contributing causes when operating at limits:
 
  • water pump impeller rusted or eroded away
  • water pump rotation direction does not match installation, it will pump in reverse direction but not as efficiently (the 289/302 water pumps are available for either direction of rotation)
  • water pump spinning too fast (cavitation) or too slow with one of those large pulley's
  • radiator has cruded up inside since previous installation, this can happen in engine also
  • radiator fins no longer attached to water tubes, this happened to me, press on fins front and back to see if they slide in and out, check all sections of radiator face
  • radiator fins rotting/corroding away, this has also happened to me
  • radiator cap not functioning at a high pressure to increase the boiling point
  • radiator over flow tank not working, allowing air in to circulating system which does not cool as well all water
  • without a thermostat, the pump does not build up as much back pressure in the block to increase the boiling point there, run a orifice plate if no thermostat
  • high numerical rear gear with no overdrive causing elevated rpm operation
  • timing or fuel mixture out of calibration
  • high exhaust back pressure
  • new engine that is not broken in yet
There probably are a hundred more gotchas.  Good luck.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Offline tbucketjack

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2013, 03:02:40 PM »
Make sure that all the fresh air coming in thru the grill goes thru the radiator, and not around it or over it. With a 195 thermostat and a coolant recovery tank you should be cruising in the safe range. Plus all mentioned in the above posts. Good Luck

Offline jim72

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2013, 06:51:41 PM »
changed the waterpump yesterday to a clockwise rotation pump (from a reverse direction pump) with no benefit. I pulled the radiator today and sent it to my radiator guru to add a fourth row to it. hopefully that will have some affect.

Offline Pinto5.0

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2013, 08:46:18 PM »
If you're running serpentine you need the reverse rotation pump
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Offline jim72

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2013, 07:53:33 AM »
Why?

Offline 289Wagon

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2013, 09:01:32 AM »
 Why?  Because a serpentine belt type system turns the impeller opposite of the V-belt type. Also the water passages in the timing chain cover are different between the two. The pump & t/c cover have to be a matched set.
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Offline oldkayaker

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2013, 01:34:38 PM »
Sorry jim72, I just reread my post above and realized it could be interpreted different from what I intended.  I should have written:
  • water pump rotation direction does not match installation, it will pump when spun in the wrong direction but not as efficiently (the 289/302 water pumps are available for either direction of rotation)
As stated in the above posts, pump "normal rotation" is same as engine, clockwise when viewed from the front (typically V-belt drive).  Pump "reverse rotation" is reverse of the engine rotation, counterclock wise when viewed from the front (typically serpentine belt drive).  Just to reiterate, the pump being used should be the one designed for the rotation direction it is being driven in.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Offline 289Wagon

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2013, 04:38:49 AM »
T/C covers
Still living the dream...In a points & condenser world.

Offline pintoman1972

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2013, 10:49:12 PM »
I run a 195 deg thermostat with a recovery tank.  The lower 160 deg thermostat does not allow the radiator enough time to cool the liquid. 

Dick

Offline jim72

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2013, 08:47:27 AM »
hey Dick; with a 195* thermostat at what temp does the coolant stabilize? Is this with your blower motor? thanks Jim

Offline jim72

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2013, 08:09:30 PM »
Just a quick update on the cooling issue. I took the radiator to my guy and he put a 4 row core in it Cost me $65.00 cheap enough. I then put a new reverse rotation pump on it and a 160* thermostat. It runs at 175-180 degrees. This is a temp I can live with.  Thanks everyone for your imput on this issue    Jim

Offline pintoman1972

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2013, 10:08:56 PM »
OK Jim,

Looks like you have things well in hand with the 4 core.

With the blower, my car runs at 200 deg.  I don't have room for a 4 core.  Some day I will change over to an aluminum rad but for now I'll stay with what I have.

Dick

Offline amc49

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2013, 05:02:08 PM »
Just a FYI and some thoughts.

I grew up in the days when you used lots of 180 degree thermostats and I rebelled hard at 195 ones for many years. To begin with, actual engine temperature usually runs some ten degrees over the stat opening temp, or 190 for 180 stat, and around 205 for 195 stat. Of course it can vary.

After running modern PCMed cars for many years I've changed my view on that. Why? Look at how long the cars last now, they go forever. While a lot of that can be attributed to the PCM now controlling A/F better to lower fuel in oil to wear engine less, a lot can be to the modern engines using higher engine temps too. Many use 195 stats now and engine normal temps of 212+. My Contour and Focus cars don't even think of turning the radiator fans on until 225 degrees now. The actual controlled range of engine temp is about 200-205 to 220-225 or so by laptop OBD reading program. Water boils at 212 and engine temp needs to get to that and stay slightly over to remove water. The PCV system does it and most engines now have more PCV sweep volume than older ones did. Water vapor left in motor is a requirement of the acid production process that makes sludge, with no water, sludge buildup drops dramatically. Look under the valve covers of any modern engine that has had oil changed in any kind of a regular way and you see almost dead clean still silver surfaces almost like the car is 6 months old. Even at 200,000 miles. You NEVER saw that low an amount of deposit on older engines.

Now, once the engine temp gets run routinely higher, then a need to regulate it closer since any slight overheat can quickly blossom into a full meltdown. On the cars now, the low fan comes on at 225, and then if nothing cools down the high fan goes on at 235, or a backup system if something starts to go wrong.

Engines actually make more power slightly hotter, proven many times, the oil actually has less friction at higher temp as well. And now it's turning out they last longer running at higher temps too.

I myself would be looking for getting that same slightly higher temp range on an old school motor too, they should last longer doing it. No more 180 stats for me ever again.

Offline amc49

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Re: v-8 cooling issues
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2013, 05:10:55 PM »
'.........was the engine rebuilt 60 over? The 302 "thin wall" block does not do well if the overbore is too close to the water jackets (the castings can really vary run to run year to year). 30 over should not be an issue.'

We had this same trouble years back putting in rebuilt 289-302 engines. A couple of .060" did it, on cars that otherwise had not overheated before. Going back to .030" shortblocks fixed them both.......... ........the only difference we could see was the boresize, the overheating shortblocks seemed to have no unusual buildup in the water jackets. After that we accepted no more rebuilds over .030" in anything.