Author Topic: Project Europa Killer (Read 19404 times)

Snow Wolf · « **on:** June 14, 2012, 12:56:21 AM »

ok i always like the 1980 pinto cruising wagon. i would love to do something like a old school tuner build. you know lowered with Enkei 92's Black with Machined Lip the old school tuner look.

BUT that's not the Europa killer.

The Europa killer is going to be pretty much a road-race car. i would like to keep away from tube chassis. if i can. but going to be gutted, mini tubbed, caged and so on and so on.... looking to put a 350 to 400+ hp Small block ford in it. would like to put a 6 speed richmond trans behind that. but at least the 5 speed. but really would like the 6 speed. then cut down a 9" rear.... well anyway you get the point. i'm thinking about putting all of this in a hatchback. looking at about 5 lbs per horsepower.

but right now the build is only in the planning stage.

you may say "Why build a car like that..." why not. but here the story behind this crazy build. i already posted this in the "FordPinto.com Welcomes YOU!" page... but i'll repeat it here for you all... about 2 months ago i got really interested in the Lotus Europa. i always did like that car. when i was 16, there was one running around Westminster. i thought it was mean looking in an elegant way, but i always thought it would be an expensive car. but not too long ago i found one on Ebay. it only went for $9000. i seen this so i went to look up the value of the Europa. i found out you can pick a good one up for $8000 to $15000. not bad, the first gen mustangs go for more. well anyway, i joined one of the biggest Europa club to find out more info. i got this grate idea to make a budget build V8 Europa. but it was doomed form the start. as soon as i put the words V8 and Europa in the same sentence they started to hound on me. saying i was stupid and didn't know what i was talking about. and that just p!ssed me off. so i am going to build a car that will whoop up on the Europa. I was thinking about using a Ford Fairmant. since it uses almost everything from the Foxbody mustang. and mustang has a sh!t ton of roadracing parts. and the Fairmant was a bit lighter then the mustang. but it is still too heavy. weighing in at 2800 lbs. yes that's too heavy. but the pinto hatchback weighs in at around 2000 to 2100 lbs. and i know you can put a V8 in one relatively easily. and i know there are some road racing parts out there, and ppl who use to race then. so now i'm thinking the pinto is the best car for this build.

so i'm here to learn everything i can about the pinto and what can and can't be done....

Reeves1 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 14, 2012, 05:53:27 AM »

V8 will make it nose heavy....not a corner carver.

Pinturbo75 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 14, 2012, 08:18:31 AM »

id consider (and i am) a turboed duratech,,,,,,, 2.0 or 2.3-2.5 any of them are capable of 400 horse and 9000 rpm......and its aluminum......

82expghost · « **Reply #3 on:** June 14, 2012, 12:20:22 PM »

the duracrap 3.0 with the svt parts on it, its v6 24v dohc over 200hp, lighter than the 2.3 by almost 100 pounds, and hits 8000 rpms no problem, im working on the stuff to make that possible right now in a pinto, had a taurtus with performance parts on it, guy hit me hard enough to total it, silly insurance, your not getting the whole car

Snow Wolf · « **Reply #4 on:** June 14, 2012, 01:01:46 PM »

trust me i've looked into fixing up a 2.3 lima. but it seem to become high dollar after you get above 250 hp. Jon Huber is one of my heroes. runs 8.7's @ 150 with a turbo-ed lima 4-cyl Mustang.

but as for a v8 making it noes heavy.... not really the stock 2.0 is HEAVY.
all cast iron to all cast iron. the lima comes in at about 418 lbs and the Windsor (221, 255, 260, 289, 302, stroker's 331 & 347) comes in at about 460 lbs.

aluminum heads and intake should make up most of the extra 42 lbs, if not more.

oh and i want to KEEP IT OLD SCHOOL. no EFI... carbs only

Bigtimmay · « **Reply #5 on:** June 14, 2012, 01:20:04 PM »

Quote from: Snow Wolf on June 14, 2012, 01:01:46 PM

but as for a v8 making it noes heavy.... not really the stock 2.0 is HEAVY.
all cast iron to all cast iron. the lima comes in at about 418 lbs and the Windsor (221, 255, 260, 289, 302, stroker's 331 & 347) comes in at about 460 lbs.

I dont know where those qoutes come from cause I have 4-5 2.3s and I can carry them around the garage fully dressed and I have a 351w and a 302 and I can move them around my shop but I can tell you this they are alot heavier then 42 pounts more then the 2.3 oh and the small blocks arent fully dressed like the 2.3.
Oh and as for them saying the V8 will make a pinto nose heavy It will no matter what you do cause they just dont sit back in the engine bay like a 4 banger does only way to get around that is push your firewall back and if your in a certain racing class some rules wont allow it.
V8s are great but I wouldnt touch anything with an Iron block thats a V8 anymore LS1 are super cheap and will flat out spank any mild older smallblock. Oh and yah can run them carb but why would yah want to when a swap harness is only like 7 wires and your done.

Snow Wolf · « **Reply #6 on:** June 14, 2012, 02:00:16 PM »

got the weight off of http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/engineweights2.html

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if your in a certain racing class some rules wont allow it.

now see you all are real ppl. i didn't know that, thank you. but is there a class where it's run what you brung? i know in dragracing IHRA & NHRA has them classes but does any of the road racing sanctioning bodies have a class like that?

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V8s are great but I wouldnt touch anything with an Iron block thats a V8 anymore LS1 are super cheap and will flat out spank any mild older smallblock.

no no i can't.... chevy goes with chevy and ford goes with ford .

and hooking up EFI is no biggie. it's tuning it that is the pain in the @ss. i don't know how to remap an ECM. but give me a carb, flathead screwdriver, 3/8 socket, and i can tune that carb for 10 different motor and 10 different set ups. and each time it will only that 5 minutes.

to me EFI is only good for 2 things. daily drive, or your highest most outer reaches of performance. (more then 2 horsepower per cubic inch without going forced induction)

anyway i like the sound of a high winding 289 over a ls1... <--- a joke but true....

82expghost · « **Reply #7 on:** June 14, 2012, 09:24:28 PM »

holy crap bigtimmay, remind me not to mess with you, i dont even bother trying to mess with my dressed 2.3 cause i cant move it, while its out thoe i will weigh it so every one knows, i mentioned the 3.0 24v duracrap because of the all alumanim cunstruction and its mabe alittle lighter than 200 not dressed but with intake and exhaust, winds high and puts out quite a bit of power, ls1 is a good choice too thoe, we are guna be putting one in my friends bimmer, those are cheap and so easy and light, just make sure you get the right one, the trucks have diferent cranks and are usualy the cast iron blocks, so get one out tof the 1998 or newer cars, and some of the trucks came supercharged and that will bolt on too, and if you have money to blow, here where i live the company my friend works for made the first 500 ci ls motor and they build them any way you want them.

pinto21 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 14, 2012, 10:00:53 PM »

How is your 77 project going, get the turbo put in yet? We had a great time at all the tracks we were able to visit, but I really enjoyed the road course track at Summit Point,W.Va. could really get into that type of racing. Check out the stampede on U-tube. Take care.

thecustommuffler · « **Reply #9 on:** June 15, 2012, 09:51:21 AM »

Quote from: Reeves1 on June 14, 2012, 05:53:27 AM

V8 will make it nose heavy....not a corner carver.

I`ll second that. My v8 (350 dynoed at 437 on 92) `80 Monza coupe would damn near wanna come around just from straight line braking. The car became dangerous with a posi. I had a 400 trani in it then switched to a TH350 and that helped.

I`m going the route of big block in my Pinto, but cruising the streets to be "the man" and a front wheel pull at the red light is all I`m looking for.

racer99 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 15, 2012, 11:23:59 AM »

There are catch-all classes in SCCA.

They are regional classes though.

SPU production based under 2.0l
SPO production based over 2.0l

I have ran both as well as A/S ,GT3 and Spec Miata.

Snow Wolf · « **Reply #11 on:** June 15, 2012, 12:40:50 PM »

Well first, the Windsor is a light motor. Lighter than Chevy or Dodge small blocks. (except the LS's, but that's aluminum)...

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Oh and as for them saying the V8 will make a pinto nose heavy It will no matter what you do cause they just dont sit back in the engine bay like a 4 banger

But that is true. If I can't punch the firewall back a bit, this build is no good... So i'm looking at different classes that will allow that. If any of you know of one let me know about it...

Well I'll say it again. This build is for one thing and one thing only. To blow the doors off of the Europa. Not everyone who owns a Europa is a dick, but there are about 7 of them that I really badly what to shove their words right back into their mouths. To show them i can build a car that has a horsepower to weight ratio of 1:5 (1 hp for every 5 lbs), in a car that handles, using an old school V8, and being on some kind of a budget.

The Lotus Europa only weighs 1600 lbs and they can be lightened to about 1200 lbs, but most of them build motors that only put out 200 hp, at most. So that's like 1:6 horsepower to weight ratio.

But this build may be pointless; if I can't find a road racing class/bracket/day/ whatever-you-want-to-call-it, like they have in drag racing. In drag racing they have what they call "grudge matches". You just need to come in there on a street night, race what you brung.

Quote from: racer99 on June 15, 2012, 11:23:59 AM

There are catch-all classes in SCCA.

They are regional classes though.

SPU production based under 2.0l
SPO production based over 2.0l

I have ran both as well as A/S ,GT3 and Spec Miata.

thank you for that info.

82expghost · « **Reply #12 on:** June 15, 2012, 03:56:53 PM »

the duracrap 3.0 can do it for you, its light and i can guarantee you can get 600+ out of it, the company noble sports cars did it and put it in their car, or you could build the cossie engine like cossiepinto, 1:5 ratio shouldnt be hard to hit

Snow Wolf · « **Reply #13 on:** June 15, 2012, 04:43:37 PM »

thanks for the idea. there's nothing wrong with it. BUT, BUT i'm sure it's EFI. i can build it. but if i do can you tune it for FREE....

the requirements for this build.

first: a light weight car: i'm thinking the pinto

2nd: a decent amount of power: with a car that weighs around what the pinto weighs, it would need to be around 350 to 400 hp

3rd: being true: a ford engine goes in a ford, a chevy engine goes into a chevy. sorry that's just me...

4th: it has to be cheap and reliable: and i know a v8 windsor can do that.

5th: i need to be able to work on it, get parts for it, and be able to tune it: so i think a carb-ed 347 or 331 windsor would be the best bet. since i don't know how to tune fuel injection. not a d@mn clue. i was so happy when i got that junk off my ranger and went to carbs. if i knew how to play with fuel injection i would just do a bad@ss 2.3 turbo. just look at my sig and that well tell you alot about how much i know about EFI. 0.00%...

sorry i'm so stupid when it comes to that. i can put them in and fix then all day long but i don't know how to tune them.

Bigtimmay · « **Reply #14 on:** June 15, 2012, 04:57:56 PM »

Quote from: Snow Wolf on June 15, 2012, 04:43:37 PM

if i knew how to play with fuel injection i would just do a bad@ss 2.3 turbo.

Im all for you spanking a lotus Europa with a pinto cause I think those europa are butt ugly personally. lol
That being said why not build a Carbed 2.3 turbo?

Snow Wolf · « **Reply #15 on:** June 15, 2012, 05:18:53 PM »

ok i don't know alot about turbos. a supercharger (an old school blower style) you can put the carb right on top. but the a turbo you need to do or have a blow through carb. i think that's what they call them. carbureted turbos i just know a little bit about them. but i think i can rap my head around that. just need to know how it works. being under boost and not vacuum.

and can i get enough hp out of it. i never seen a high power carbureted 2.3 turbo. all the fast 2.3 turbos i have ever seen was EFI...

but i do like your idea. but i will need more info to see if it can be done.

racer99 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 15, 2012, 05:46:57 PM »

CSU or C&S for a blow thru,I have one from each and both work well.
The turbo wagon is going draw thru but if I cant get it to run right
it will be blow thru in a week.
Go to the turboforums.co m and lurk in the carb section.

Snow Wolf · « **Reply #17 on:** June 15, 2012, 10:43:28 PM »

still looking but going through price shock... god d@mn!!! a little warring to this hillbilly would of been nice.... CSU 750BT. a 750cfm blow through carb... new from CSU is $925.00 just wow.

Srt · « **Reply #18 on:** June 16, 2012, 04:26:04 AM »

this what you're looking to 'kill'?

Bigtimmay · « **Reply #19 on:** June 16, 2012, 11:48:13 AM »

Quote from: Snow Wolf on June 15, 2012, 10:43:28 PM

still looking but going through price shock... god d@mn!!! a little warring to this hillbilly would of been nice.... CSU 750BT. a 750cfm blow through carb... new from CSU is $925.00 just wow.

Yah those carbs are expensive But they are nice there are write ups on the net on how to convert holleys to blow thru by yourself.http://web.archive.org/web/20031025025448/http://www.hangar18fabrication.com/blowthru.html
Another route other then blow thru Is a fully enclosed carb box then you just need "mechanical secondaries, .120 needle and seat plus nitrophyll float set". http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/drag-racing/146900d1326343350-will-my-turbo-plans-work-help-paxton.jpg thats a pic of a paxton carb box.
Oh and as for you havent seen a fast carbed 2.3 turbo yet I got one person for you to look up. Joe laramee his street car and drag pinto are both blow thru carbed 2.3s. Heres his drag car right before it got wrecked but this aint even turned up all the way yet.
Also his "Street car" has went 9s.

Snow Wolf · « **Reply #20 on:** June 16, 2012, 03:34:04 PM »

well... i'm still looking into it. i got to look a the price too. i can get a windsor small block that will put out my target HP (350-400) for about $7000. and that's carb to oil pan. all new, done, just need to put into car and break in.

but i got to look in and price out a carb-ed turbo 2.3 build. and see how much it will cost, and if it's worth it.

Quote from: Srt on June 16, 2012, 04:26:04 AM

this what you're looking to 'kill'?

yes... not that one, but yes that car. what i'm really aiming for are the few d!cks on the Europa forum (a yahoo group). how they treated me was uncalled for.

here was one of the last messages i got.

Quote

I wasn't addressing Kris, I was addressing Mike about a timeline pertinent tp the development of the AC/Cobra automobile , nothing more.

I have no interest in Kris' street racing/ dick wagging agenda, whether alone, or backed by a "team" of fellow dick-waggers.

Kris, please, stick a fork in this mess; it's done!

and i never talked about street racing and i did not brag or boast. all i did was try to see if i could do a budget/junkyard build. starting with a low hp 289. (210 - 250 hp). and all i got was defecated on, over and over. i have never been treated like that on any other forums. never.
so to get even with them, i'm going to build a pinto (maybe) to out do my original plans for the Europa.
but before i start to throw money around, i want to do research and find out as much info as i can for this build.

Bigtimmay
thank you... looking into it now...

Snow Wolf · « **Reply #21 on:** June 18, 2012, 01:43:49 PM »

ok... more i dive into this, more i have to ask "is it worth it"...
yes it would be nice to have a crazy fast car. but for this project it would end up being a strait up race car. and i'm not a fan of the hatchback (sorry). and you got the money that it will take, and the time it will take... all for a car that i could only use at a road race course.

think i should abandon this project before a wast a ton of money in something that i might not like.... and go ahead and build some that i would like. like an old school tuner but do it with a pinto cruiser wagon....

but i do like the idea of this kick@ss road racing monster. so what i might do is continue this build on paper only.

what do you all think.....

Pinturbo75 · « **Reply #22 on:** June 18, 2012, 03:00:14 PM »

ive got less than your initial investment in just the motor in a 2.3turbo pinto(car and all) and am over your target hp level and can drive it anywhere and all the while whooping up on v8s and getting near 30mpg... do that with your351.....

Snow Wolf · « **Reply #23 on:** June 18, 2012, 03:52:00 PM »

it's not the engine that would make it a track car.... but to race in a SCCA class that will fit this kind of build i would need a cage. plus the car would be gutted.... basically i was looking at something like this but with a v8 in it ...

i don't know a lot of road race tracks around where i live. and on top of that i'm sure the entry fees are more then your entry fees at a local nhra/ihra tracks.

i can race in ETK/Trophy class at 75-80 dragway at Monrovia MD for like 30-40 dollars. but i heard SCCA is a bit more or i should say a lot more money. <--- but i could be wrong. and if i am let me know.

Pintosopher · « **Reply #24 on:** June 18, 2012, 06:42:11 PM »

Not even doable.. Without real Bucks See attached Photo

Pinto5.0 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 18, 2012, 09:10:41 PM »

A Pinto suspension isn't the hot suspension for corner carving PERIOD! It's respectable but if I were putting a corner carver together under a Pinto body I'd fab a wider front suspension out of NASCAR take-offs & a wider axle out back with trailing arms & a watts link. A built 2.3 EFI turbo/5 speed set back 10 inches, 9 inch wide front & 10 inch rear wheels with custom wide body panels to cover the tires.

Basically I'd want to add a foot to the width, increase braking, stiffen it up with roll cage & put some fat sway bars under it.

Snow Wolf · « **Reply #26 on:** June 18, 2012, 11:29:18 PM »

Quote

with custom wide body panels to cover the tires.

something like this?

how would you go about doing that?

Srt · « **Reply #27 on:** June 19, 2012, 03:35:21 AM »

i don't mean any disrespect, but it means CUBIC MONEY. if you want a race car then build one. you will not get what you say you desire by cutting ANY corners

Pinto5.0 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 19, 2012, 07:04:44 AM »

Quote from: Snow Wolf on June 18, 2012, 11:29:18 PM

something like this?

how would you go about doing that?

Thats exactly what I'm referring to. I was planning to do just that to my '80 Runabout before I sank over 70K into my "07 Mustang to install an adjustable corner carving suspension & over 800 RWHP to push me close tp 200 MPH top speeds.

I was going to use 2 pairs of '79-'80 Pinto fenders to form my widebody panels from. It really isn't that difficult to visualize how to cut & form the fender skins to the perfect shape if you make cardboard templates & tape them to the body to get the shape right. My build was going to use the Jag IRS that I picked up for $200. It's 63" wide & comes with 10" disc brakes & parking brakes already. My front suspension was just going to be the crossmember & adjustabe A-arms out of a wrecked late model stock car that was 62" wide & had 11" disc brakes already on it. Stock Pinto is 57" width front & rear roughly. The rest of the width I wanted was coming via wheel offsets.

Snow Wolf · « **Reply #29 on:** June 19, 2012, 07:58:59 AM »

70 wow 70K that's alot...
the build i had in mind would of been way under 20k.

but i think i could do the fenders with fiberglass.

as for the suspension i was thinking of robbing a foxbody mustang of its.

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Author Topic: Project Europa Killer (Read 19404 times)

thecustommuffler