Author Topic: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2 (Read 13814 times)

Pintocrazed · « **Reply #30 on:** May 06, 2015, 05:24:28 PM »

This is the best pics I could take

amc49 · « **Reply #31 on:** May 06, 2015, 07:45:11 PM »

The angles of the motor mount flats on both ends and both sides are clearly arguing with each other, the mount steel brackets are mixed up there. Not saying that swapped back they will be 100% right but should be better as far as those angles. Look at pics directly above and mentally remove the rubber, the two flats are parallel.

L on a part as with all others means the left side as driver is sitting in the car.

Motors sitting correctly in the cars generally have the motor slightly higher in the front and why there is a correction angle generally built into the intake manifold to make the carb bowl pretty much dead level. Injectors do not need that though. Looks there like may need a bit more room on the back of intake to hood for the higher part of plenum there so that works out there as well.

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #32 on:** May 07, 2015, 01:01:43 AM »

Thanks again for all the response, good comments and clear pictures, I'll see if I have time this weekend to turn it all around again!

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #33 on:** May 11, 2015, 03:11:35 PM »

So here it is, correction of the confusion going south situation; pinto 2.0 motor mounts in stock position. The “L” on the left bracket is now facing the driver.
People with an eye for detail will notice that the wires through the insulators are absent.
Reason is that the holes in the engine brackets for them aren’t in the right position, they should be closer to the bolt. So cut the wire (Brian at Anchor says it usually doesn’t affect the function of the mount) , or drill extra hole in bracket. Next time around I might drill the extra hole.
Shifter location looks OK, but still a little to the passenger side. Looking at the offset on the stock tranny mount, I get the impression that it is meant to be like that.
In the next post I hope to make an impression (everybody rolling on the floor with laughter) with my home fabricated mock up tranny mount.

dick1172762 · « **Reply #34 on:** May 11, 2015, 05:32:33 PM »

We all need a good laugh.

pinto_one · « **Reply #35 on:** May 11, 2015, 08:36:20 PM »

Glad you got it the right way , but your carpet does bring a tear to my eye , 😱

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #36 on:** May 30, 2015, 12:10:19 PM »

He, lost momentum there for a moment. Been busy with domestic chores, and had a good motorbike Pentecost weekend with one of my brothers and family in the Belgian Ardennes.
To answer pinto_one, yes, this is one rough little Pinto, I’d say it even deserves a subcategory, call it a Ford Donkey. And I love my old donkey.
It has little dings and dents all around, and patches have been repainted at different times with whatever was around and the biggest brush (broom? Great runs) available. Interior is mixed red and black. It doesn’t bother me that much because I have no intention of bringing it back to showroom state.
Back to business, I first made a real simple mock up trans mount based on using the original Anchor rubber mount. The wood in the image would be replaced by U-iron. But the original style isn’t a masterpiece of rigid design to begin with.
Then I decided to hack up the Scorpio mount and weld 2 pieces of pipe on it to mount it just like the C4 mount, no changes to the body. My sincere apologies for the crap welding job, hope it stays together.
The Scorpio rubber mount has its own problems, because leaking oil can puddle on top of it and slowly eat it away. Luckily new ones are still available.
As I said before, I want the cheapest, fastest route to getting this car running again after an engine conversion. There are many options for up rating and renewing these parts, but they cost more money and time.
First a runner, then if satisfied uprates.

pinto_one · « **Reply #37 on:** May 31, 2015, 04:14:30 PM »

hope you did not cut up your mount , you have to use the type of mount that came with the car or you are going to later have engine mount problems , the angle you have in the front makes the engine want to slide to the rear, the org transmission mount makes it move to the front , so every thing is centered , this set up is used to dampen engine vibrations at low and high speeds , same is used on some aircraft, you need a org pinto standard transmission mount , for a type "E" , it will bolt to your type 9 , got a few extra if you want one, have to check on the shipping , this should make things much better in the long run, later Blaine in the deep south state of Mississippi ,

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #38 on:** June 01, 2015, 03:44:12 PM »

pinto_one, yes the missing link! Since my car had it's 4-speed replaced at some time by a C4, the bracket between the trans tail and rubber mount is gone. I've only seen a simple drawing of it in a parts catalog. I would like the original part, will send you a PM to talk shipping.
Your explanation of the working of the mounts makes sense, I haven't checked the angle of the original Scorpio engine mounts yet, if they are also at an angle I see no problem in using the Scorpio trans mount, if they are flat it's time to rethink.
But I'm not confident that it's a simple bolt on, I don't think the mount on the T9 tail is exactly in the same location as on the type E, think it's a tad further back and deeper, which would still mean some adaption like in image "trans mount idea 1"? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

pinto_one · « **Reply #39 on:** June 01, 2015, 05:27:54 PM »

Yes I got your pm, this setup takes the same rubber mount for both transmissions, just the bracket is different , this one is the newer style one, very early ones only had the one bolt at the bottom (which most of the time got lose over time) later ones had the extra tab with a cross bolt to pinch the tabs one each side tight , will pull it off tomorrow and ck on shipping , and send more photos, later Blaine

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #40 on:** June 04, 2015, 03:11:12 PM »

Small but tedious job at the front, removing the viscous fan.
Trial fitting the original radiator made clear that the fan is too close to the radiator. This is caused by the Scorpio Pinto 2.0 having double pulleys and a wider viscous fan. So I had to make up two improvised tools; grind up an old 27 mm wrench to a width of 32 mm, and take a 51 mm chunk of square metal out of piece of U-iron. The U-iron is wide enough to fit over the pulley, and the “fork” holds the four pulley bolts to keep it from turning, on the other side the U-iron rests on the driver side frame bar.
The 32 mm wrench goes on the fan nut, and lengthened with a piece of pipe you pull it to the driver side (a little WD40 on the fan nut a day before may help), because this is a left hand thread.
Think I already know where it’s heading with the fan/radiator solution, more in next post.

pinto_one · « **Reply #41 on:** June 04, 2015, 05:23:07 PM »

Easy cure for the radiator/fan to close syndrome, one I see that that is the radiator is not what cam with the car , but it can be used by bringing it to a radiator shop and have the side brackets swapped left to right moving the radiator forward a inch or so , I have done this to some V8 pintos in the past and trim the top just a tad , simple fix, Next I took a tape measure of the stock trans from the pinto , type "E" It's 11 1/2 " inches from the face of the trans (where it bolts to the bell housing to the bottom mount bolt , what is the type " 9 " 5 speed trans measurement of yours , know where one is here and thinking of putting one in my other pinto, cheaper than a T-5 , later Blaine ,

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #42 on:** June 05, 2015, 02:32:32 PM »

Blaine, my measurement on the T9 from face of trans to bottom mount bolt hole is 14,57 inch (37cm).
This explains the extra adaptation that will be needed to get the original style mount in the right place.
I don’t know if the front shaft and clutch are going to give you problems though.
As for the T9 transmission, it had a lot of bad press; not being strong enough and all that. But it has the exact right dimensions for our early Pinto’s, and it has a huge aftermarket availability of parts and upgrades. If money is no problem you can go all the way to a Quaife QBE60G-H1 6-speed in-line sequential gearbox that can handle up to 375bhp (about $ 9200.- excl. taxes…) and it is a direct replacement upgrade for the T9!
More realistically, you can choose all kinds of upgrades to suit your wallet from countless companies because the T9 has a huge market in rallying, racing and kit cars.

pinto_one · « **Reply #43 on:** June 05, 2015, 05:27:27 PM »

Thanks for measureing that for me , saves me from crawling in the mud to look and see, the yard wants a hundred bucks for it , and the few reasons I want it is its cheep , it's a five speed, and it lines up with the shifter hole better than the T5 , this is not going to be put on a high powered engine anyway, planning on a diesel conversion, adapt it to the engine , on the trans mount you can easy make it work, it only three inches back than stock, plain "A" would be shorten the trans bracket a inch and a half , and move the slots in the cross member a inch and a half, plan "B" would turn the trans cross member back wards and put a plate to pick up the studs in the mount and weld it on, hope this helps , post photos when you get the stuff , like to see it , later Blaine

dianne · « **Reply #44 on:** June 06, 2015, 07:29:26 AM »

Quote from: pinto_one on June 05, 2015, 05:27:27 PM

Thanks for measureing that for me , saves me from crawling in the mud to look and see, the yard wants a hundred bucks for it , and the few reasons I want it is its cheep , it's a five speed, and it lines up with the shifter hole better than the T5 , this is not going to be put on a high powered engine anyway, planning on a diesel conversion, adapt it to the engine , on the trans mount you can easy make it work, it only three inches back than stock, plain "A" would be shorten the trans bracket a inch and a half , and move the slots in the cross member a inch and a half, plan "B" would turn the trans cross member back wards and put a plate to pick up the studs in the mount and weld it on, hope this helps , post photos when you get the stuff , like to see it , later Blaine

You're still doing the conversion? WOW. Can't wait to see. That EFI is too high BTW...

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #45 on:** June 10, 2015, 07:53:46 AM »

Thanks Blaine! Trans mount arrived yesterday, I’ll have a good look at how to fit this piece, first thing I noticed is that it is slightly angled towards the drivers side of the car (not bend or anything it looks like), is this part of how the three mounts are supposed to work together? If bolted up it would try to tilt the trans somewhat to the left? Or is the type E bottom mount at an angle?
Regarding the radiator issue, certainIy after Blaine commented that it wasn’t the original piece, I decided to splash out on this one, I went to QSP products in Waalwijk (just an hour’s drive from where I live) and bought me a new aluminum radiator that is made specifically for MK1 and MK2 Ford Escort RS 2000’s (also Pinto engined). Trial fitting went smoothly, no cutting required to the sides of the radiator frame, just a little bit at the bottom. Will show more pic’s later after the SPAL electric fan I ordered arrives from QSP. I first had to figure out if there was room for a suction or blowing fan, luckily the suction fan fits.

74 PintoWagon · « **Reply #46 on:** June 10, 2015, 08:07:36 AM »

Nice radiator, height not going to be an issue??..

pinto_one · « **Reply #47 on:** June 10, 2015, 08:14:55 AM »

Hey glad the got the mount I sent, and do not worry about shipping or paying for the mount, just happy to help out a fellow pinto owner with a great project, as for the mount being at an angle is odd , it is supposed to be flat , did you bolt the bottom up first then the side pinch bolt, you have to make sure the bottem is seated before you tighten the side one, the rubber mount has an alignment pin on it so make sure it is fully in when you tighen the nut , the two studs on top is for a bracket that supports the exhaust pipe , you can use flat bar on it, I removed it to save weight and shipping cost, can take a photo for you so you can copy it , and post more photos as you go, later. Blaine

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #48 on:** June 10, 2015, 08:54:02 AM »

74 PintoWagon, with positioning tests it worked out all right, it doesn't hit the front valance. Hight is 19,29 inches. Don't be confused by the radiator on the right that was in there, because if it's not the one the car came with, like Blaine said, it's not a good benchmark.
Pinto_one, I haven't test fitted the mount yet, made a new pic, hope you see what I mean by the angle.
Haven't got time before next week to sneak of to the garage.

Pintocrazed · « **Reply #49 on:** June 10, 2015, 08:57:37 AM »

let me know how the radiator fits.been seeing these on ebay but wasn't sure if they would fit

74 PintoWagon · « **Reply #50 on:** June 10, 2015, 09:56:51 AM »

Quote from: 72DutchWagon on June 10, 2015, 08:54:02 AM

74 PintoWagon, with positioning tests it worked out all right, it doesn't hit the front valance. Hight is 19,29 inches. Don't be confused by the radiator on the right that was in there, because if it's not the one the car came with, like Blaine said, it's not a good benchmark.

Gotcha thanks, makes sense now..

pinto_one · « **Reply #51 on:** June 10, 2015, 09:58:24 AM »

Ok , I see what you mean, if it's that way with the alinement pin/tab one the rubber mount it could be they made the mount wrong , pin placement due to year of the car , the rubber mount I brought new over ten years ago for my 76 wagon, but bit the dust (or salt water ) when hurricane Katrina passed over my butt and it went under water at the airport I was working at the time, but you can drill a new hole in the mount to relocate the pin or just grind the pin off, ck it against your old rubber mount , good info for anyone else ( without a parts book ) to know if they are swapping around parts from different years , (But we know your going to sneek into the garage tonite when the wife's asleep and take a look) I often do when I'm doing the same thing 😀

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #52 on:** June 19, 2015, 02:25:13 PM »

Fitting the radiator required a little cutting at the bottom of the support, the top horizontal flat part of this u-iron (sort of) had to be shortened to the same width as the bottom one. Second image still shows a little triangle at the right that also had to be pinched out.
1.38 inch square tubing was used for keeping correct distance from original mounts, radiator doesn’t touch anywhere else, original Pinto hoses fit, and I’ve got 1.18 inch between block and SPAL electric suction fan, I’m well pleased with this.
Total cost of this radiator including cap and temp switch was $ 299.80 (excl. freight, I picked it up). To get it working I still need some wire, relay and fuse.
One piece of advice, I bought this from a company that I can go back to if it is faulty, go direct on Ebay and you might get yourself a box from China with a similar but not quite item that didn’t pass B2B export quality checks.
Next fun hurdle is going to be the alternator brackets, the Scorpio brackets put the alternator half way into the frame rails, and the Pinto brackets don’t fit the Scorpio alternator. To be continued!

pinto_one · « **Reply #53 on:** June 19, 2015, 06:37:40 PM »

Wow , you have plenty of room now , I would have used the clutch fan to keep everything simple, looking good

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #54 on:** June 26, 2015, 10:13:14 AM »

With the alternator I decided to take the easiest route for now, fit the 72 brackets to the Scorpio 2.0 and mount the alternator that was in the Pinto originally, which was a newer piece than the one in the Scorpio anyway. Top bracket didn’t fit the ’85 thermostat housing, so the housing was switched.
I’ll have to find a shorter V-belt though (Pinto’s water pump pulley was bigger in diameter), and I’m stuck with the external voltage controller. If this functions I can try to change to the double pulley from the Scorpio, have an extra belt, if it doesn’t I’ll have to make up mounts for the Scorpio alternator.
Then I started work on the electric fuel pump bracket, made it from 1.18x1.18 inch angle iron and parts left from the Scorpio bracket. It positions the pump between the tank and the rear axle on the driver’s side. Square notch out of iron at the right clears the tank strap mounting hole.
Fuel system think through and execution takes up a lot of time, and parts from several suppliers!

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #55 on:** July 07, 2015, 10:08:59 AM »

Time for an update! I must admit that I was quite humbled by 79prostreet’s images, what a beautiful car. I almost didn’t dare post anymore. But, seeing 76hotrodpinto soldiering on regardless, I’ll just carry on with my Ford Donkey.
Fuel system; I decided to use the original fuel pickup pipe and line as the return line, so I removed the old filter around the pickup.
Then it took some thinking about where to make a hole for the new pickup, several times remounting the tank to check for space, and also very important, you have to be able to get to the back of the hole to tighten a nut.
I finally decided on a hole just to the right of the original sending unit. For pickup it’s bolt on AN D10 parts, which is a bit over the top (especially as half of it is unseen in the tank), I’m sure there are arguments against this, and it could be done in a more simple way, but at this point I don’t want to spend time familiarizing myself with fuel line pipe, bending and flaring tools and soldering and what have you. Of course, I still had to make up tools to get the AN parts fastened.
The vapor emission exit on the tank will just get a piece of a hose and a tiny air filter at the end, and the return fuel line will be used as fuel delivery line.
I used D10 parts because the original set up in the Scorpio was done this way, big diameter small distance input to pump, and after that small diameter to filter and engine.

pinto_one · « **Reply #56 on:** July 07, 2015, 01:00:30 PM »

Looks like you got some aircraft fittings , wish I knew you were going to use that I could have sent you some I have , (I work on aircraft ) one to go though the tank is a bulk head fitting. AN 832 and the nut that goes on it AN 924 , but remember that these are not the 45 degree standard fittings , these are 37 degrees, or JIC spec , hope this helps , it's the little things that will get you , you would be surprised of the things aircraft owners has done in trying to work and fix the small things that end up costing more money than they ever thought of , even ther lives ,

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #57 on:** July 08, 2015, 01:18:31 PM »

Thanks for the offer pinto_one, but shipping cost would be too high for these few items. They are available here so no problem.
Getting it all fumbled into the tank required some elastic fingers, patience and the tools from the last post. The pickup doesn’t block the original fuel sending unit as this goes up and sideways when inserted.
Speaking about the sending unit, my fuel gauge wasn’t working properly before so I took it apart following this video called “How to repair a 68 Mustang Fuel Sending Unit. A lot of dust came out (dried out in a few months), the pickup wire windings were treated with contact spray and rubbed with a clean cloth to remove excess, and the swivel contact was bent outward just a touch. After that I had the just about the same multimeter readings as the man in the video, so in the tank with this unit, and install the tank back under the car.

pinto_one · « **Reply #58 on:** July 08, 2015, 05:46:54 PM »

Great , I,see,you got the lines almost done , try to get the pick up tube in the middle of the tank if you can, or almost to the back, on mine when I have less that a 1/4 of a tank and take off kind of quick before I hit second gear it just falls on its face , the reason is the gas (the few gallons left ) goes to the back of the tank and uncovers the pick up and sucks air , then the big stumble afterwards, so I always fill up when I get a 1/4 tank, also I found on really hot days it happens before I get that low , one I believe the fuel is getting hotter because the fuel is circulating from tank to hot engine and back, as the fuel heats up it has a chance to vapor lock the car starts to stumble a lot, more when I have a the A/C on high in traffic, I insulated both fuel lines under the hood and helped big time , now knowing this and if it happens to you car your u will not have to pull your hair out, later Blaine

72DutchWagon · « **Reply #59 on:** July 15, 2015, 02:59:39 PM »

Some progress the past couple of days, I fabbed a fuel filter clamp from 0,04 inch (1mm) thick sheet metal, and put an old bicycle tire in it as rubber insulation. I mounted the clamp and big canister style original filter in the left rear wheel well under the trunk floor, just behind the fuel filler pipe. This brings it nicely in the vicinity of the old fuel return line, which now is the delivery line. The vapor exit on the tank now has a tiny air filter as a vent.
Next I installed a new piece of brake vent hose (on top of the rear axle) and pushed it through the tank strap hole like it was before, the old one just broke off when I looked at it.
I installed the driveshaft, taking care not to over tighten the U-bolts at the rear. The fuel pump wires from the Scorpio harness were run in rubber grommets through an existing hole in the trunk floor, ready to be coupled up later to new wire running to the front of the car.
This leaves only the exhaust pipe to be rejoined, somebody in the past cooked up an exhaust that is completely welded together from old pipe, I had to cut it to get some decent access to remove the engine and box.
For the moment I reinstalled the 72 Pinto exhaust manifold because this means the least hassle with exhaust fabrication. A decent system can always be built at a later stage.
When that’s done I’m finished with work under the car (for this phase that is)!

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Author Topic: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2 (Read 13814 times)