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Offline 72DutchWagon

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72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« on: March 07, 2015, 01:44:49 PM »
Finally I parked the Pinto in the garage and Iím starting to get the old engine out.
I added some pictures; note the somewhat sloppy auto box conversion, the trans cooler is dangling in front of the radiator attached by old pieces of wire.
On the other hand, the starter motor and alternator look brand new.
A question for all you early Pinto drivers, since I acquired this car I had the notion that the front is to high up. I measured 9,5 cm = 3,74 inch between the top of the tire (175/70 13) and the edge of the wheel well. If this is to high, could it be possible that someone put in later Pinto/MustangII springs without shortening them to the correct height for the earlier ones?

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2015, 11:29:52 AM »
Today the engine came out, see pic's. Second pic shows old engine and the 85 Euro Scorpio 2.0 EFI that should replace it.


Offline Pintocrazed

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2015, 11:33:50 AM »
I'd love to put a fuel injected 2.0 from there in my 73

Offline dianne

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2015, 01:43:36 PM »
I'd love to put a fuel injected 2.0 from there in my 73

You can do a 2.3 from a Fox Body. Mine is delayed waiting on the machine shop to get the crank back :( It's still at the place for paint too. Can't complain too much honestly. But you can go to a 2.3 Mustang EFI engine.
Vehicles:

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Offline Pintocrazed

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2015, 01:48:53 PM »
I thought bout that but fuel injected 2.0 be cooler cause everybody is doing the 2.3 or 2.3 turbo

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2015, 04:22:41 PM »
Sticking to the 2.0 gives you a 121 lbs weight advantage over a 2.3, and I'm not a racer, but I think that extra weight is also in the wrong place for going around bends.

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2015, 09:50:30 AM »
Now it was time for the auto box to come out. The auto and the T9 next to each other made it possible to compare some measurements; the auto box seems to be 0.7 inch longer then the T9, shouldn't be to much of a problem in the swap I think?
Gear lever position seems to be allright.
The rear crossmember location is a little off, needs some fabricating.
The outgoing shaft on the auto box is beefier though, so that means looking for a different slip yoke (and new u-joint) for the T9 (25 spline, 1.38 inch outer diameter).
If any of you have been here before and know of (a) part number(s), please let me know.

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2015, 01:22:52 PM »
first hurdle easy pass; the oil pump pickup tubes from rear sump 85 Euro Scorpio Pinto to front sump 72 Pinto Wagon are a bolt in swap, no mean feat considering there's 13 years and the atlantic ocean between these two blocks.

Next hurdle to tackle is relocating the dipstick, just saw that Dianne's project is facing the same job in a 2.3!


Offline Pintosopher

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2015, 02:46:45 PM »
first hurdle easy pass; the oil pump pickup tubes from rear sump 85 Euro Scorpio Pinto to front sump 72 Pinto Wagon are a bolt in swap, no mean feat considering there's 13 years and the atlantic ocean between these two blocks.

Next hurdle to tackle is relocating the dipstick, just saw that Dianne's project is facing the same job in a 2.3!
Wow, another dipstick location challenge! Let's call the UN and demand equal design for each one ::). Too bad it's not a Cossie your dropping in!
 Watching with great interest...
Yes, it is possible to study and become a master of Pintosophy.. Not a religion , nothing less than a life quest for non conformity and rational thought. What Horse did you ride in on?

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Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2015, 03:36:16 PM »
Hereís a comparison of the 85 scorpio rear bowl sump and the 72 Pinto front bowl sump.
To my knowledge all European Pinto OHC engines have a rear bowl sump. In the past a lot of conversions of Pinto engines in older European cars meant a good deal of sump cutting and rewelding, this link http://www.premiermotorsportdevelopments.co.uk/ford-pinto-front-bowl-sump-with-pick-up-pipe-907-p.asp  brings you to a firm that still does this work.
The American Pinto 2.0 sump pan remains to this day a seldom seen object of myth in Europe,
so here are some pictures.

After spending a day clearing out the garage (it became an unworkable little place, the old engine and C4 transmission and lots of other stuff that was in the way went to another lock up), I just had time for one little job this afternoon; threading the old dipstick tube hole for an M12 bolt, so that hole is securely closed off.

Some people will find this project not exciting and slow, but Iím trying to build a detailed record of what it takes to do a reasonably simple first engine swap. Newcomers to the hobby donít learn a lot from forum posts like ďme and my mate dropped  a V12 in a Yugo before breakfastĒ.
I also believe in ďstagesĒ in the project, first see if I can build up a functioning car with a modern version of the original engine, and then look at ways to improve on that.

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2015, 02:18:25 PM »
Another few jobs done;
new dipstick tube in correct position, welded a bracket to pipe (scavenged from Scorpio) to fix to fuel pump delete plate upper bolt, and worked up the bottom with Devcon A plastic metal putty (yes, looks rather sloppy).  I donít think it will come lose. Ever.

I ordered a DANA SPICER 2-3-8431X 25 spline transmission slip yoke from Dennyís Driveshafts, is advertised for Ford C3, also fits T9.

Last pic is cleaning Oregon dirt from the gas tank with curious Pinto looking on with one eye.

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2015, 02:05:05 PM »
I pulled out the coil springs which were way to long, Iím feeling sorry for the person who put them there and didnít know what was going wrong, must have been a hell of a job and with risks!
On the first image you can see the problem, left is already fixed, the right one is bending outwards in a frightening way, even against the shock, you canít see it but the wheel isnít touching the ground, so there is no tension on the suspension at all.
Next image is original height 11 2/8 inches, cut to 9 3/8 inches, the figure Oldkayaker mentioned for 71-73 Pintoís.
To avoid confusion, measuring device is in cmís.
After that I started removing old gasket from 2.0 injection intake, have to wait with reinstall because the wrong gasket (for carburetor intake) was in my engine gasket kit, so Iíll have to order a new one.

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2015, 08:40:11 AM »
Engine mount brackets were transferred to the 85 Euro Scorpio 2.0 block, just a bolt on, new engine mounts were used,  Anchor 2363, I got these from Rockauto.
Then I put the engine back in the bay, no real problems here. When it is angled right, after fitting the T9 and making up a transmission bracket, it might just be that the injection manifold clears the hood, by a quarter of an inch or so, and the fan, which sticks out a little further (double belt pulleys), might clear the radiator.  Weíll see how that works out.

Offline Pintocrazed

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2015, 08:45:23 AM »
Dutch  you can do mine next!!!

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2015, 09:01:22 AM »
Not to fast Pintocrazed, I might be reasonably good at mixing puzzles, but this thing ain't running yet!

Offline pinto_one

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2015, 02:29:58 PM »
Looking good, but I would put some modlers clay on top of the manifold when you first run though the gears to make sure you do not ding the hood from the inside from the toque of the engine , 1/4 inch is very close to the hood, if it's in the very front you may be able to angle mill it and blend in the inside to match the flow, it should have more low end toque with that long runner manifold, are you using the stock vam or going mass air computer, and also that have a new vintage turbo kit on e bay for the engine , has the exhaust manifold and turbo , and the photos I see you do not have air conditioning, so you could mount the turbo and pipe it into a inter cooler and cross over straight into the intake manifold, nice work , Blaine in Missisippi😺
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Offline oldkayaker

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2015, 05:48:56 PM »
Very nice 2.0 upgrade and T-9 installation.  The front suspension spring free length measurements in that old link were from used springs I had.  Just concerned that your ride height came out okay.

The stock 2.0 rubber motor mounts allow a lot of engine rotation.  So if you do end up with only 1/4" hood clearance, a engine torque restraint may help.  Today I have seen nylon straps/ropes used.  Back in the early 70's, IECO & Spearco sold a "engine anti-shake bar" torque arm with an additional motor mount to reduce this rocking and it did not noticeably increase harshness (see item PA614 in the linked catalog below, page 22 of 28).  It was made of angle steel so it is heavy.  If interested in the IECO item, I can measure and sketch up its dimensions for replication.
http://www.fordpinto.com/index.php?page=18
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2015, 03:02:06 PM »
Thanks for the info guys, help is always appreciated!
The ride height came out OK I think, may'be an inch below stock, as if knew what stock height is...
The car was standing much to high in front, and I haven't got a clue about what springs were used, so it was always going to be hit or miss. I had to use somebody's measurement!
The engine is in the bay but still a lot of work has to be done, T9, battery, radiator, drive shaft, and fuel tank have to be installed, all of these things will have an effect on the stance of the car.
I will post pictures of course when everthing is in there.

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2015, 02:33:47 PM »
Lost two days trying to fit the T9 gearbox with engine at maximum angle and lots of wobbly stacks of wood.  Stupid.
Did some reading; how about centering your clutch plate first, yes, and put the gearbox in gear, so you can line up the splinesÖ
My clutch center tool was a 10mm socket that just happened to have the right outer dimensions, I put a round headed bolt through it (filed a little less wide then the socket), and  a piece of wire behind the nut, to be able to get the socket out again after tightening the pressure plate bolts.
Using a socket extension didnít work, the socket would stay in there. 
Ordered a $ 60.00 motorcycle scissor lift, mounted that on a cart, put the gearbox on top, and tied it to the lift with wire (why arenít these boxes flat at the bottom?), to keep it from falling off.
Then I jacked the box up, and carted it more or less straight to the engine.
This time success, but still, this isnít easy when you want to work alone, and the car is jacked up
only 14 inches from the floor. Space and equipment have their limits.

Offline pinto_one

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2015, 06:02:09 PM »
Your getting there, has anyone here done one under the car with a dirt floor raise your hands,  ✋,  with that T-9,s extra gear will help alot, I still remember my 71 when I shifted into forth it always felt like I could shift one more time,
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2015, 06:40:12 PM »
While in college my only car was a 1950 Ford with an Olds V-8. Had to change the clutch without a jack or lift. I drove it onto the curb with two wheels in the street and two wheels on the curb. Worked ok removing the tranie but about the time I started to replace the tranie it started to rain cats and dogs. The water kept getting deeper and deeper but I had to finish the job or miss school. The water was running from front to rear of the car and I was under the car with  my feet toward the front of the car. The water started to flow up both pants legs and ended up coming out around my collar and onto my face. Look at the number 6 picture to see how it looked when I did the clutch. But I did finish the clutch job. Anything for school.
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Offline dga57

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2015, 07:00:13 PM »
While in college my only car was a 1950 Ford with an Olds V-8. Had to change the clutch without a jack or lift. I drove it onto the curb with two wheels in the street and two wheels on the curb. Worked ok removing the tranie but about the time I started to replace the tranie it started to rain cats and dogs. The water kept getting deeper and deeper but I had to finish the job or miss school. The water was running from front to rear of the car and I was under the car with  my feet toward the front of the car. The water started to flow up both pants legs and ended up coming out around my collar and onto my face. Look at the number 6 picture to see how it looked when I did the clutch. But I did finish the clutch job. Anything for school.

LOL  You painted quite the image there!  The things we do for our cars!!!

Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 08:11:35 AM »
After fitting the T9 box to the 2.0 Pinto a strange new problem arises; the shift stick is in perfect location length wise, so no transmission tunnel hacking, but it is out of the middle, to much to the passenger side. Forcing it to the middle means the engine isnít straight in the bay.
This canít be right. I checked the photoís made during dismantling, and yes, I put the engine bracketís on the 85 Scorpio lump the same way as they were on the engine that came out. However, that doesnít mean that somebody couldnít have made a mistake in the past.
I could only find one set of left and right pictures of engine brackets on a 2.0 Pinto on posts by ďOrange AlpineĒ on turborangerfor ums.com. If his were positioned right, then mine were wrong.
So, lift the engine and tranny again a few inches, and switch the engine brackets.
Now I have the bracket with letter ďLĒ facing me on the left when standing in front of the engine.
After bolting everything down again the shift stick is in the middle, but I must admit that Iím still not satisfied with what Iím looking at, there seems to be too much stress on the insulators, and the block is too close to the firewall for my peace of mind.
Page 16 of the Ford Pinto Tech Manual 71-72.pdf mentions a Support Bracket (D1FZ6028A D1FZ6029A), a Mounting Bracket (D1FZ6030A D1FZ6031A) and the Insulators (D1FZ6038A). The insulator part number does cross reference to Anchor 2363. What the other 2 should look like I donít know. The ones Iíve got could theoretically even be 74ís? 
I canít find any other info on the install of the engine brackets and the positioning of the insulator (is it upside down?), I need some help here.
Could someone with a 71-73 2.0 Pinto please post some pictures of the setup in their (hopefully) untouched car?
I canít start work on the transmission crossmember until I know that the engine is in the correct place.     

Offline Pintocrazed

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2015, 08:21:09 AM »
DUTCH,
I HAVE A 73 RUNABOUT WITH THE 2.O THATS NEVER BEEN OUT.SHOT ME A EMAIL ADDRESS AND ILL TAKE SOME TONIGHT.ILL ALSO POST THEM ON HERE SO ANYBODY CAN SEE FOR FUTURE REFERENCES

Offline pinto_one

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2015, 08:25:49 AM »
Looking at the last photo I do believe you have the rubber mounts upside down , the cup goes to the top, this is from memory , with the cup on top it will deflect any oil that might drip on it if you have a leak , with the cup the way you have it , will hold oil or anything that my drip onto it , it will destroy the mount , the oil will turn the rubber to a black goo over time, a. Few will see this post and send you photos, later Blaine
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Offline pinto_one

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2015, 08:49:28 AM »
There ya go that was quick ,😀
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2015, 08:55:44 AM »
Thanks guys for the quick response. Pinto_one, the oil deflecting function of the cup already came to mind (after installing them and looking at them the logic kicked in), glad to have an extra opinion on that. Pintocrazed, looking forward to some pictures, and as you said please post, to completent the picture library of this great site. There are tons of images of 71-73's converted to 74 up and more exotic mounts but no originals.   

Offline pinto_one

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2015, 10:13:21 AM »
Looked again at the photos and hate to say this but you got the engine brackets backwards also, the parts marked are L & R  the Left side goes on the left side , this is detrmined buy sitting in the divers seat looking forward , not standing in the front looking to the rear, it should fit well after,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

Offline 72DutchWagon

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2015, 01:56:42 PM »
OK, makes sense, now the only other unknown to establish is in which direction the open sides of the isolator cups should point, because that also has an effect on the whereabouts of the tranny tail.
I would really like to get this right the third time, although it's good exercise, no need for going to the gym!
 

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Re: 72 DutchWagon project phase 2
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2015, 02:21:21 PM »
I know about doing thing a few times before you get it right, I have had a few 2.0 over the years and the last one I pulled the engine out of was almost ten years ago, sitting here thinking about it I do remember that the open part was to the back, since the after market mounts you have may not have the alignment pins the org rubber mount had, that way you could not rotate then when you bolted them to the engine mount, they also were angled back alittle , the trans mount also had a pad like rubber mount that was angled to the front , (pushing forward) and keeping everything centered , like a big "V"  the more I think about it the more I remember , (good for the mind😜) but you almost got it, soon you will have the smell of old oil burning from the exhaust manifold from a smooth running efi 2.0 😷
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0