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Offline Drexx

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Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« on: January 13, 2017, 01:11:06 PM »
I have a 80 pinto trunk model with 2.3 in it, T 5 trans, Ranger 3:73 rear axle. I'm about to do head work on it and was wondering about something. I have a roller Ranger cam I plan on installing in it but I thought I might as well go with bigger valves and double springs while I'm in there. chambers will be polished, un-shrouded and CC done to the head. Runners in the intake side of the head will be cleaned up and exhaust will be polished and top of port raised for flow. My question is will I gain any from the bigger valves with that cam or am I wasting my time doing this with a RR cam?  The head is a D port head that is port matched to a t-bird lower intake with a Holley 350 on it. On the exhaust I have a Ranger header going to 2.5 inch exhaust to a glass pack dumping under car. No real rules apply here as its just a fun car I drive and enjoy. I am attempting to keep it mildly street able and not kill my wallet. The lower end is stock for now. distributor will get an Electronic update soon.

Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.  ;D
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2017, 02:20:50 PM »
With the ranger roller cam double springs would not gain you anything as the cam is a low rpm torque cam. Double springs are needed for an all out race 2300. On the street they would be useless and only add to the cam's wear. Same thing with the larger valves. With that cam you already have more flow than the cam can stand. Biggest go fast help for a street Pinto is a 10 pound flywheel. With a stock cam or the Ranger cam you have too big an exhaust system on your car. 2 1/2" dia tubing is way to big when the Ranger header only has a 2" dia outlet. 2" dia exhaust is plenty on the street. After all stock is only 1 3/4" dia. All the mod you asked about are great on a full race 2300 where you can turn it 8000 RPM lap after lap. For what you want they would be a waste of money. Get a real cam and go from there as the Ranger cam is great on a 100% street Pinto. Got one in my Pinto and it's very smooth with lots of low down torque. Hope this helps you.
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 10:53:19 AM »
For exhaust pipe size look at the chart from flowmaster at  http://www.roadkillcustoms.com/hot-rods-rat-rods/recommended-exhaust-tubing-sizes.asp#axzz4vgpnoiwy  Big is not always better. 200 HP from a street driven, un-blown 2300 is asking a lot. Could be done but would not be very streetable.
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Offline Drexx

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2017, 11:15:48 AM »
Thanks for the advice guys. Ill look into just using the RR cam and doing a good valve job. Ill change exhaust from the glass pack back with a 2inch and turn out in front of back tire.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2017, 12:17:15 PM »
From what I've read the "net" result of the Ranger Roller cam (also available in certain Mustangs too) is similar to the stock slider 2.3 cam even though the specs. are different.  The lift is less, but I believe the cam ramps up faster being a roller and the total flow remain about the same. There are two roller cams/rockers.  Make sure the set you state having is compatible with the valve stem diameter of the head.  There is also a LOT of chatter on the internet about mixing the two roller cams/rockers for a performance gain but from what I read that seems to be debunked.

 I mention this in case you come across the articles. I tried to post a link to the 4M site where this is discussed, but got a lot of scantly clad girls in the side bar and warnings I needed to "update" much of my software, thus I made a hasty retreat.  I believe Dick uses the (legit) 4M site and might be able to provide the proper link.

You asked,"Is it worth it?"  On Ebay they go for about $100+ as a set, used.  I've gotten everything needed at a Pick Your Part 50% off sale for $25. So, my "worth it" may not be yours.  The value is not in performance, but reliability.  Modern oils and and old slider cams are a potential problem waiting to happen.  Lastly I mention this in case you go to try and pull a RR set. The cam removal is often inhibited by the upper radiator cradle. The convenience of a Pick Your Part car is I simply cut the cradle and bent the portion out of the way. There are also two screws holding a metal plate that rides in a groove on the back of the cam.  It is held with Phillips screws. The area between the firewall and the screws is rather limited even with a stubby screwdriver (and they are tight too).  I wound up using a Phillips bit for a power driver and a pair of vise grips to (barely) get the screws removed. The bit is not ideal (a little small) and you need a lot of pressure to keep it seated properly.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2017, 01:12:13 PM »
The early rockers / late rockers is a bucket of Vega worms (the worst kind). Several different people on 4m have as many different ideas about this as Trump has about the CIA. Matters little because the rockers are difference size's at the valve stem slot. Early rockers will work on both early and late cams. There are two ways to use late rockers on an early cam. The slot in the late rocker can be made bigger or the valve stem made smaller. Both are very hard material's and would require HIGH tech workmanship as in $$$$. Some so call experts say the rockers have a different ratio and the use of a late rocker would be a HP gain. Not so as I have seen a couple of factory Ford book that say both rockers have the same ratio. Try 4m.net/ or look at the min stock archive I posted on the tech tips.It works for me.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2017, 04:27:48 PM »
OK, the link came in clean this time. Not sure what happened earlier. Here is the "Great Early/Late Roller Rocker Debate."  I know we discussed this before I'll search (again) to see if I can find the link here at the PCCA.

This is the much disputed argument FOR the ratio increase with an early roller cam/later roller rocker.
http://www.route66hotrodhigh.com/2300Cams.html

This is the much touted argument AGAINST it being feasible.
http://www.4m.net/showthread.php?318610-2-3-roller-sliders-rocker-question

And here is our own PCCA "in house" debate.
http://www.fordpinto.com/it's-all-about-the-turbo/ranger-cam-for-a-87-turbo-coupe-engine-for-my-'74-pangra/

I guess we never did get to a consensus.  I thought for sure there was a site somewhere where the guy showed the two different rockers and the end results - as in he tested the scenario not just talked about it. I'll keep looking. At any rate it would require an older roller cam in a newer, small stemmed head, or grinding the side clearance on newer rollers (with an older roller cam) a point people dispute can be done at all (hardened metal) much less the strength of the rocker when done.

... It just dawned on me:  I believe the point was with the larger ratio rocker the wheel is back farther from being directly over the vertical center of the cam.  Think of one cam as having the highest lift at the 6 O'clock position.  Now, think of the roller being offset towards the lifter (higher ratio) this would cause the high spot of the cam to line directly with the roller high spot at the 7 O'clock position. In theory the distance between the high spot of the cam and the roller increases. This is because the roller is moving in a tangent to the circular rotation of the cam high spot. I believe this is what causes the higher ratio to show NO increase in lift.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2017, 06:06:00 PM »
We need one of those experts on 4m.net to try the early/late rocker arm on a stock 2300 on a dyno. Who knows? We maybe looking at a 50 HP gain.
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Offline Pinturbo75

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2017, 08:43:27 PM »
the biggest gains on port work to the head would not be the roof.... the short side radius of the runners and bowl work behind the valve head along with unshrouding the chambers...not upgrading springs is bull too/  valves can float on a stock head at below stock redline of 6250..if you plan on going bigger later as in cam.... over 500 lift id have the valve guide bosses milled down .... spring retainers can contact vavle seals and damage them..
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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2017, 08:17:09 PM »
Something the turbo crowd does to get more zip out of a Ranger roller is retard the cam timing. It might get you something useful up to 6000-6500, but it's still not a rev-happy cam.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2017, 09:04:41 PM »
I'd be curious to know the ramp difference of the RR cam to the slider cam.  It might be like a NHRA "Stocker" cam that legally has factory lift and duration but a very fast ramp. This gets the valve to a higher lift compared with a stock cam at a similar point of duration. The roller would allow for that type of grind. If they had a similar LSA but the RR cam had a greater overlap it might be an indicator.

OK, whose got a degree wheel, a dial indicator and a lot of time on their hands..., anybody..., anybody,... anybody?

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2017, 11:19:39 AM »
This has been talked about many times at  http://www.4m.net  archives and yes its still a bucket of worms.
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Offline The Whistler

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 03:28:33 PM »
I can tell you for sure the gains you will get from that combination are not worth the expense! Now add a custom cam and the right springs you have something! I would not waste mine or anyone else time with such a bad combination! Spending all that hard earned time and cash and Handicap it with stock cam REALLY! What are you thinking!
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 04:39:29 PM »
Well, I'm not looking for ultimate HP.  At 60 years old a stock T/C engine is enough for me. Being I have the small IHI '88 turbo high RPM breathing is not going to be a benefit.  I just know a few years ago when I got my RR cam (and all 8 roller rockers) they were only $25 total at a Pick Your Part 50% off sale. So, I did not considered it a big expense.


Dick, I know the 4M site has a lot of info. I just don't recall if they ever mapped the lift at every 5 or 10 degrees and compared it to the slide cam.  That is where my curiosity is. Does the ramp profile (for lack of a better term) "bulge" when compared to the slide cam??? Hopefully the drawing (yes, I have limited skills) will illustrate what I mean. Solid is the (assumed) slide cam profile and dashed is the (assumed) roller profile.  The duration and the lift are equal but the speed (some may say abruptness) that the cam moves the valve to a higher lift occurs sooner though ultimately total lift is equal.  Thus the potential to get more air/fuel in the cylinder but still retaining the characteristic s of a common lift and duration. This is what I'm wondering about the RR cam profile.

Offline The Whistler

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 06:38:34 PM »
Ok I see! The only benefit of the RR cam is it is a roller and it can be had for next to nothing! It is a good replacement for a stock slider that is it! I see what you are looking for and I hate to see you searching for a light at the end of this tunnel when there is none! But good luck you will find what all others before you have! I wasted my time when I could have been doing something better! Good luck and best wishes on chasing Internet Folk Lore! All of this has been debunked before. Since one or more of us does not understand this cam I will make it simple. The cam is a downgrade which is why it works the way it does, it was intended for a truck and better emissions. It will last longer than a slider cam. Do research you will find ford had a problem with slider cam failure for the entire life of the Lima and the roller solved this! So please keep us informed good luck and best wishes!
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Offline dick1172762

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 09:50:25 AM »
I have talked to several Pinto gear heads with the Ranger cam in their Pinto and 100% of them liked the cam. I have one in my Pinto and think its one of the best mod I have done. Smooth idle / more low in power / all in all, a better running motor. Big deal, it will not rev to 7000 rpm. So what! Most Pinto never see any thing over 3000 rpm. Try it / you'll like it.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2017, 11:57:01 AM »
Ok I see! The only benefit of the RR cam is it is a roller and it can be had for next to nothing! It is a good replacement for a stock slider that is it! I see what you are looking for and I hate to see you searching for a light at the end of this tunnel when there is none! But good luck you will find what all others before you have! I wasted my time when I could have been doing something better! Good luck and best wishes on chasing Internet Folk Lore! All of this has been debunked before. Since one or more of us does not understand this cam I will make it simple. The cam is a downgrade which is why it works the way it does, it was intended for a truck and better emissions. It will last longer than a slider cam. Do research you will find ford had a problem with slider cam failure for the entire life of the Lima and the roller solved this! So please keep us informed good luck and best wishes!

I hope I'm not being mis-understood.  It is just a curiosity that if I had two sets of everything I'd take the time to compare.  Call it a frivolous hobby but it is my time to use as I choose.  I'm not out to prove the RR cam is some high performance item.  For sure the RR cam has less lift than a slider cam. So, I'm just wanting to know if the ramp speed is faster to compensate for less lift and thus giving a similar end result as a slider cam.  Of all the information I've seen the comparison is the end results and not a more detailed understanding of how these results came about (like the degree increment/lift rate I'd like to know).  The underlying implication that I'm wasting my time to try and do so is not warranted.  I'm not out to prove a point or find facts for argument.  I'm just trying to quell a personal curiosity.

Offline dick1172762

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2017, 12:11:53 PM »
To do what you want, it would take a set up like the " the cam doctor" that will show the cam profile in real time. Not cheap but necessary to get the know how your asking for.
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Offline Wittsend

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2017, 03:07:12 PM »
Seems to me a degree wheel (pointer) and a dial indicator would do the job.  I'm just looking to plot lift at specific degrees.  Bring the cam to the initial point of lift, record the lift, rotate another 5 degrees, record lift. Can't see where it would take more than 10-15 minutes a cam.  Higher lift numbers at a common degree would tell whether the ramp speed is faster - or not.

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2017, 03:32:34 PM »
I think it do what your asking for, you would need to start from the center of both cam in both X and Y. Only then would you be able to plot the cams to each other. I'm sure there is other ways, but this sounds like the way to get what your asking for.
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Offline The Whistler

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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2017, 05:17:03 PM »
I hope I'm not being mis-understood.  It is just a curiosity that if I had two sets of everything I'd take the time to compare.  Call it a frivolous hobby but it is my time to use as I choose.  I'm not out to prove the RR cam is some high performance item.  For sure the RR cam has less lift than a slider cam. So, I'm just wanting to know if the ramp speed is faster to compensate for less lift and thus giving a similar end result as a slider cam.  Of all the information I've seen the comparison is the end results and not a more detailed understanding of how these results came about (like the degree increment/lift rate I'd like to know).  The underlying implication that I'm wasting my time to try and do so is not warranted.  I'm not out to prove a point or find facts for argument.  I'm just trying to quell a personal curiosity.

I understand. It is nothing special about that cam. The answers you seek are simple and are staring you in the face! They do not require anything elaborate to find all you have to do is look at what Ford was trying to do at the time its just that simple! If you understand that then you will understand a lot more! People on other Forums have been on this witch hunt before and there is a lot of Bogus crap on the Net! None have proven any of this to be true! The answer is and always will be simple!
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Re: Ranger RR Cam and Big valves? Worth it or not?
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2017, 11:35:18 AM »
BTW I used anti pump up lifters with my Ranger cam, and it will rev in excess of 5000 rpm if necessary.
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