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Author Topic: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!  (Read 35361 times)

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Offline mikerich1972

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1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« on: March 24, 2008, 07:47:13 PM »
 Yep, I drive my wagon every day. We've had the car since 1988, when I got T-boned in my other Pinto wagon. I bought the first one in about January, 1988. It had some serious piston slap going on in the tired 2.3. I used to wait at least 2 minutes for warm-up to let the pistons quit swapping holes before pulling out of the driveway!

 This second Pinto now has 308.000 confirmed miles. I'm not sure it's the original engine, though. The odometer read 97k when I got it, and drove it about 36 miles round trip to work daily. We live in Washington state, and routinely drive it into Montana and Idaho for vacations. You should've seen some of the stares we got on I-90 headed East into Montana across Lolo Pass last October! Then there's the comments we get from folks around town who can't believe thier eyes; all worth it!

 I retired in 2003, and took the first opportunity to build a spare 2.3 L. I still have the spare waiting for the day the original breathes its last... that was 30,000 miles ago, and no end in sight! It still runs at 30-32 MPG highway, so who's complaining?

 I contacted Ford Motor Company about a year ago, concerning this high-mileage Pinto. I didn't hear anything back, so e-mailed three different departments within Ford! I received two "thanks but no thanks" responses to my offer of commercial exposure. You would think they would be interested in their little "disposable" car being so reliable!! I guess they're too busy figuring out how to send more jobs overseas and save a buck...
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Dodge Durango

Pintony

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2008, 08:34:13 PM »
 :welcome: mikerich1972,
 Does your Pinto happen to be one made in Canada that the odometer rolls on Kilometers instead of miles?
Just a question... Not trying to be a wise guy...
30-32 would be phenomenal mpg for a 2.3.
 Most Pinto owners do not even know there is a difference between the two odometers.
 From Pintony

Offline mikerich1972

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2008, 09:17:54 PM »
No, it's definitely a US made, mile-measuring Pinto! I have, many times, verified the MPG, gear ratios, and tire calculations for this car. In fact, I have done modifications to the engine that have netted me up to 37.502 MPG!! (And this was last February, with about 300K miles!).

I have been working on several ideas that I think may have merit in reducing gasoline consumption. The latest is hard to quantify right now, but I'm still working on it. The poor car should feel like a lab rat by now!

By the way, if any of you Pinto guys want to know a secret to easily boost HP and MPG that was inspired by some old-school racing guys, just e-amil me. This will work on almost ny engine, although Chevy's are more sensitive. Please write "PCV MODS" in the subject line. I'll e-mail you my instructions for increasing MPG by up to 17% !!! This is not a joke. I have been doing this for a long time, with no adverse affects on the high-mileage engine. I also have a magazine article highlighting this same basic idea that proves up to 14.5 HP increase with a Pontiac 455 CI. My experience can only prove the MPG increase of up to 17% on the 2.3L.

Send your requests to:  GDSNCNTRL@VERIZON.NET ( be sure to put "PCV MODS"

Mike Richardson

 
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Dodge Durango

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2008, 06:13:39 AM »
By the way, if any of you Pinto guys want to know a secret to easily boost HP and MPG that was inspired by some old-school racing guys, just e-amil me. This will work on almost ny engine, although Chevy's are more sensitive. Please write "PCV MODS" in the subject line. I'll e-mail you my instructions for increasing MPG by up to 17% !!! This is not a joke. I have been doing this for a long time, with no adverse affects on the high-mileage engine. I also have a magazine article highlighting this same basic idea that proves up to 14.5 HP increase with a Pontiac 455 CI. My experience can only prove the MPG increase of up to 17% on the 2.3L.

Are you taking about disconnecting the PCV system and just venting it? I know racers do that to lower the intake air temps.


Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

Offline Farmboy

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2008, 06:25:14 AM »
 :welcome:, great, another pinto-freak in the great state of Washington
  I do what the voices in my Pinto tell me to do




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Offline beegle55

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2008, 12:49:49 PM »
Good story you have there. In regard to your attempts to contact Ford about the Pinto, I was not surprised that the comments didn't receive the highest regards. The Pinto is probably one of the most if not the most infamous car in Ford history. Even if a Pinto had 1,000,000 miles, I doubt Ford would do anything except congratulate the owner on the achievement. It was/is a great car and us Pinto fans know it, but it cost Ford a lot of money and hurt its reputation. And really, the Pinto wasn't a very popular idea in some of Ford's CEO's eyes back when it was introduced, but Lee Ioccoca got his way despite Henry Ford II trying to shut the project down. But a good story nonetheless, keep her maintained and it should last you many many more miles if you're lucky.

    -beegle55
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Offline mikerich1972

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2008, 04:03:49 PM »
Actually, the idea is to reduce the pressure in the crankcase, thus reducing the rotational drag caused by having to push air in an enclosed space. In other words, I'm pulling a vacuum on the crankcase...

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Dodge Durango

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2008, 04:45:41 PM »
Actually, the idea is to reduce the pressure in the crankcase, thus reducing the rotational drag caused by having to push air in an enclosed space. In other words, I'm pulling a vacuum on the crankcase...

Mike

Isn't that what the PCV system does?

Bill
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Offline mikerich1972

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2008, 06:49:42 PM »
 The PCV system on any automotive engine only has ONE purpose; to keep the unburned hydrocarbons (and other junk) out of the atmosphere. It does that quite effectively by purging air through the crankcase and into the intake manifold. From there, the junk is burned in the combustion process.

 So, no, the PCV system does not apply ANY vacuum on the crankcase. It merely pulls air (and, by the way, a lot of water vapor) through it.

 You may be misunderstandi ng the word vacuum. In this and many other cases, it is used to refer to the absence of air, or deprivation to some extent. This results in a reduction of pressure to some point below atmospheric pressure.

 E-mail me with "PCV MODS" in the subject line, and I'll forward my idea to you. It is a two-page explanation of this whole concept.

GDSNCNTRL@VERIZON.NET
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
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2003 Dodge Durango

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2008, 07:37:56 PM »
The PCV system on any automotive engine only has ONE purpose; to keep the unburned hydrocarbons (and other junk) out of the atmosphere. It does that quite effectively by purging air through the crankcase and into the intake manifold. From there, the junk is burned in the combustion process.

 So, no, the PCV system does not apply ANY vacuum on the crankcase. It merely pulls air (and, by the way, a lot of water vapor) through it.

 You may be misunderstandi ng the word vacuum. In this and many other cases, it is used to refer to the absence of air, or deprivation to some extent. This results in a reduction of pressure to some point below atmospheric pressure.

 E-mail me with "PCV MODS" in the subject line, and I'll forward my idea to you. It is a two-page explanation of this whole concept.


I fully understand the word "vacuum".

The PCV system does put a vacuum to the crankcase, but with the crankcase that is vented, outside air is pulled into the crankcase: 'a vacuum leak'. If it were not putting a vacuum to the crankcase, air would not be pulled in through the vent.

By sealing the vent ('leak') you will limit the amount of hot gas that will be pulled out of the crankcase and into the engine, and in turn your intake air temp will go down. That will go along with any benefit that a negative pressure in the crankcase might give you.

A N/A (regular) car will draw more vacuum at idle or 'decel' than with an open throttle (like highway driving).

Of course ANY modification to the intake air might have other effects too, and those must be considered before-hand (tune, choke, federal laws...).

BTW: What I don't understand is why you don't want to just post all of your information here, or post a link, and make it "public."

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

Offline mikerich1972

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2008, 05:54:59 PM »
 It appears that I can't attach an MS Office file here.

 Maybe there's something I'm missing.

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
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2003 Dodge Durango

Offline apintonut

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2008, 03:47:53 AM »
ive know about this one for a wail it woks so good my father in-law who had huge doubts after seeing it work on to of my cars he took his 2007 toyota pu in and he couldn't believe that it even made his new truck get 4 mpg more!

page wasn't working for me but may be my fire wall
http://www.condensator.com/

another
http://www.dogpile.com/dogpile_rss/ws/results/Images/Gas%20Mileage%20Devices/1/408/TopNavigation/Relevance/zoom=off/_iceUrlFlag=7?_IceUrl=true
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wtb 75 yellow w/ black int. (rally?) like profile pic.

Offline Cookieboystoys

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2008, 08:56:23 AM »
It appears that I can't attach an MS Office file here.

 Maybe there's something I'm missing.

Mike

try to "copy and the paste" the text.... but if it's 2 pages I'm not sure it would fit.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2008, 11:42:03 PM »
This is an interesting topic. The possible adverse effects should be considered by anyone thinking of doing this. Thank you for posting some of the issues you did have, and some of your concerns too.

I wonder what the gains would be if the crankcase were vented outside of the vacuum like I mentioned before (all else equal).

......The nasty vapors are still drawn off and burned in the engine, so the emissions have not increased, and the EPA will be happy......


The PCV system is considered to be an emission control and the EPA might not be that happy, at least not for street use.

........I want to point out that the on-board computer in newer vehicles doesn’t care about this modification! (The computer does not control or monitor the PCV in any way.).......

I can tell you that the EFI 2.3T has a "Metered Air" system that is designed to work with a PCV and 'vented' crankcase. The vent is after the VAM so all the air in the engine is metered, so IF this were to be done it would not have an effect on the METERING of the air (mixture). One more thing to think about with this set-up: the location of the "vent", its between the VAM and the turbo; in a vacuum area. Other possible effects, good or bad, are still a '?'.

I would think that it would change the mixture for a carb.ed engine (fixed mixture). Yes, some, if not all Pintos have the vented oil cap have a tube to the air can, but it is located before the air fliter (restriction).

Cars with "Speed Density" or "MAP" sensors might not deal well with the change (I don't know).


Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

Offline Srt

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2008, 02:55:21 AM »
Might I ask why, if this is so cost & fuel efficient; not to mention (your implication, not mine) that it is common sense;  do not all auto manufacturers utilize it?
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Offline earthquake

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2008, 09:41:16 AM »
Might I ask why, if this is so cost & fuel efficient; not to mention (your implication, not mine) that it is common sense;  do not all auto manufacturers utilize it?
3 letters (EPA) :(
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Offline Srt

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2008, 11:36:36 AM »
3 letters (EPA) :(


you maybe partially corect but i think that if 'big business' could do something so simple & inexpensive & effective why wouldn't they do it?  in my opinion, because it has been researched and set aside as not being feasible.

there have been throught the years, no lack of 'devices' along the same lines as this idea. an xample is the '300' or '100' MPG carburetor. 

the epa & the auto manufacturers are not ignorant of ideas & 'out of the box' thinking when it comes to designing vehicles & the power plants that allow them to move.  yes, they do have a vested interest in selling cars/trucks and the parts to service them.  so does 'big oil' have a vested interest in perpetuating the aut industry as a huge consumer of oil. but in the political climate that is prevalent in this day & age a simple procedure or device such as this would have been implemented already.


100+mpg+carburetor
cut & paste this into google:

there are listed page after page of 'ideas' that will change the future of the automotive world for the better.

all that being said;  i have never tried any of this and i'm not saying that any of these ideas don't or do work. i am saying that with the united states full of the best engineers & researcher as well as a few govt. aencies devoted to the science and application of such ideas, i would think that an idea such as this would be a bit more 'mainstream' than showing up on a forum in an enthusiasts web site
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Offline dave1987

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2008, 04:22:14 PM »
Back on topic to the original post...

Are we talking about capping off the crankcase vent valve and the oil filling cap, thus making the engine a closed "circuit" with no external ventilation?
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

Offline mikerich1972

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2008, 07:28:47 PM »
I fully understand the word "vacuum".

The PCV system does put a vacuum to the crankcase, but with the crankcase that is vented, outside air is pulled into the crankcase: 'a vacuum leak'. If it were not putting a vacuum to the crankcase, air would not be pulled in through the vent.

By sealing the vent ('leak') you will limit the amount of hot gas that will be pulled out of the crankcase and into the engine, and in turn your intake air temp will go down. That will go along with any benefit that a negative pressure in the crankcase might give you.

A N/A (regular) car will draw more vacuum at idle or 'decel' than with an open throttle (like highway driving).

Of course ANY modification to the intake air might have other effects too, and those must be considered before-hand (tune, choke, federal laws...).

BTW: What I don't understand is why you don't want to just post all of your information here, or post a link, and make it "public."

Bill

Sorry bill, no direspect intended. I never know what level of knowledge is out there. You obviously DO understand what's going on!!

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Dodge Durango

Offline mikerich1972

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2008, 07:37:28 PM »
This is an interesting topic. The possible adverse effects should be considered by anyone thinking of doing this. Thank you for posting some of the issues you did have, and some of your concerns too.

I wonder what the gains would be if the crankcase were vented outside of the vacuum like I mentioned before (all else equal).

The PCV system is considered to be an emission control and the EPA might not be that happy, at least not for street use.

I can tell you that the EFI 2.3T has a "Metered Air" system that is designed to work with a PCV and 'vented' crankcase. The vent is after the VAM so all the air in the engine is metered, so IF this were to be done it would not have an effect on the METERING of the air (mixture). One more thing to think about with this set-up: the location of the "vent", its between the VAM and the turbo; in a vacuum area. Other possible effects, good or bad, are still a '?'.

I would think that it would change the mixture for a carb.ed engine (fixed mixture). Yes, some, if not all Pintos have the vented oil cap have a tube to the air can, but it is located before the air fliter (restriction).

Cars with "Speed Density" or "MAP" sensors might not deal well with the change (I don't know).


Bill

Great points!! 

I have modified a 2006 Chrysler minivan, and a 2005 Ford F-150. Both operated just fine with this done. The only complaint from the owner was about the "whistle". This was only noticable upon shutdown, but they wanted them both reversed anyway. These, and the vehicles mentioned in the article are the only experience I have with fully "comptuered" cars.

By the way, both of these vehicles saw a solid 1.5 miles per gallon increase for the short time I had the mods on them.

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Dodge Durango

Offline 77turbopinto

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2008, 07:46:15 PM »
Sorry bill, no direspect intended....

None taken.

It's so hard to "read" emotions or intent in forums like this.

Bill
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Offline mikerich1972

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2008, 07:47:51 PM »
Back on topic to the original post...

Are we talking about capping off the crankcase vent valve and the oil filling cap, thus making the engine a closed "circuit" with no external ventilation?

Well, just cap, or change out, the oil fill cap. What you want to do is create a vacuum-tight crankcase. Be careful to watch your oil seals, though!

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Dodge Durango

Offline mikerich1972

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2008, 08:01:31 PM »
For a lot of you folks who are wondering why I would be willing to share this idea on a small website forum, I'll be happy to answer that.

I presented this idea to many car-guy friends, most of whom looked at me like I was crazy! I also contacted the local city maintenance department about trying this on some of their vehicles. I got the same reaction!! What's the problem here? Unbelief...  Most of us believe that if something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

This idea is NOT new! Drag racers have been doing this for years to sneak out a few more HP's.This is also why I can't patent and market the idea. But, what I CAN do is get the word out! All I'm asking is that you try it. If you don't like the outcome, or if it flat doesn't increase your gas mileage, then reverse the mods and we'll all move on. Nothing really lost!

However, if it DOES work for you: pass on the information!!  (It's here on the site for free) All I'm asking is that you let me know how it's working for you. What increases have you seen?

I worked as a Mechanical Engineer at a nuclear fuels production plant for 14 years, responsible for the HVAC, Containment, and Air Sampling systems, among other equipment. I spent about 26 years working with all types of HVAC systems. Because of this experience I too, was very skeptical of the seemingly minuscule gains available with such a simple modification. That's why I had to prove it to myself before I could put this out to the public!

I'm not in it for profit. I just want to beat the imported oil thing as much as I can, any way I can.

Thanks for listening!

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Dodge Durango

Offline turbopinto72

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2008, 08:55:02 PM »
Well, just cap, or change out, the oil fill cap. What you want to do is create a vacuum-tight crankcase. Be careful to watch your oil seals, though!

Mike

Im sorry but I am having a hard time with this. The crank case needs to breath or there will be so much crank case pressure built up it will blow out the dip stick. By sealing it off you will not have an effective " air pump" I can see tons of HP loss with this not to mention damage to parts. ??????
Brad F
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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2008, 09:35:32 PM »
 The thing I'm wondering about is if a piston is moving up and another down, doesn't this offset each other in regards to occupied air space?

  So, when a vacuum is created (as with this modification) and a piston needs to occupy space (moving upward), doesn't that vacuum impede the upward movement of the piston in the same way atmospheric pressure impeded downward piston movement without the modification?

I'm not up on Physics, but maybe things move easier in a vacuum and the same trade-off of piston up/down movement mentioned above becomes more efficient?

 I have seen drag cars apply this negative pressure principle, but they siphon a vacuum off headers. I guess at full throttle the header siphon creates more vacuum than dual four barrels do on the intake side.
Tom

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2008, 09:42:52 PM »
If you think about it, every 4th rotation of a given piston there is a " vent" via the exhaust valve opening. But, in a closed crank case there is no " vent" so , where does the compressed air go to ?
Brad F
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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2008, 09:59:08 PM »
 Well, in an ideal world there would be no ring blow by. So, the crack pressure ideally shouldn't change. But within the crank case you have pistons offsetting the air, I would think in a push/pull fashion. The spinning crank would create "wind like" a fan. But even that possibly is simply replacing like air in occupied space. So, I would guess it is the difference in temperature (crank case to atmosphere) that causes the most air movement related to the venting the crank case.

 In years of old cars simply had a breather tube venting to the air I don't recall major pressure issues with good rings and valves.  The PCV was just a way of burning hydrocarbons given off by heated oil. It created a vacuum and force the vapors into the intake.
Tom

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2008, 10:12:16 PM »
Right. And the PVC valve/ crankcase vent system also keeps the certain % of blow-by i.e. gas from collecting in the oil system and contaminating it
Brad F
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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2008, 10:48:11 PM »
I'm sorry but I am having a hard time with this. The crank case needs to breath or there will be so much crank case pressure built up it will blow out the dip stick. By sealing it off you will not have an effective " air pump" I can see tons of HP loss with this not to mention damage to parts. ??????

I'm not going to pretend that I understand this but...
 Mike is trying to say that the crank case is sealed EXCEPT for the vacuum applied to it by the intake manifold. If an absolute vacuum is applied then there is no pressure.
 If you put a wind-up airplane in a vacuum tube and then let it go the propeller would spin really fast as there is no air to slow it down but no air to pull the plane forward either. So having a partial vacuum applied would produce HP.
 as there are 2 pistons moving down and 2 pistons moving up at the same time in a 2.0 or 2.3 engine. and the Vacuum is NOT "absolute" if the c.c. needed a little air back for some reason it could take it as there is NO checkvalve to stop air going in either direction.
 From Pintony
 

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Re: 1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2008, 11:31:15 PM »
Ummm, huh ??.
You still need to evacuate the crankcase. I hear Mike saying he wants to " seal it" is that not the case?
Brad F
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