PINTO CAR CLUB of AMERICA
Welcome to FordPinto.com, The home of the PCCA => Pinto FAQ => Topic started by: Jessi on January 24, 2012, 02:15:06 PM
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Just thought I would pass on the following information that I discovered today.
The Pinto uses a 4 on 4.25" lug pattern for its wheels. The stock wheels as we all know are 13", which are going to be a problem in the future, as 13" car tires are being phased out. For those of us like me that are doing a restomod on your Pinto, then you don't mind having other than stock wheels.
You can also have bigger wheels without doing a 5 lug conversion (if wheels are truly the reason for your conversion). Another great thing is that you can have new to you wheels, without paying a grand a set.
So here we go, follow along.
As we already established a Pinto uses the 4 on 4.25" pattern, but this can also be converted into millimeters to read 4 on 108mm. That alone opens some new doors for you as many wheel guys never think to do that numerical conversion.
Another important fact about the Ford Pinto is that it has a 63.4 mm hub opening in the wheels. This means that any wheel you get at the pick and pull needs to not only have a 4 on 4.25" (or 4 on 108mm) bolt pattern, but it also needs to have a center hub hole that is at least 63.4 mm. Bigger is fine, but smaller is not, that is of course unless you own a machine shop.
All this information is great, but what does it all mean??
It means that junk yard wheels will fit your Pinto, but what do you look for?
16x7
Ford Mustang 5.0 GT 1991-93
Saab 9000 1998
16x 6.5
Saab 9000 1990-93
16x6
1999 and up Mercury Cougar
15x7
Ford Mustang 5.0 GT 1985-91
Ford T-Bird 1981-88
Mercury Cougar 1985-88
Porsche 924 1977-86
15x6.5
Volvo 850 1992-93
15x6
Alfa Romeo Spider (optional)
Ford Focus 2000 and up
Saab 900 1990-93
Saab 9000 1986-1997
Mercury Mystique 1995-96
14x6
Alfa Romeo Spider (standard)
Ford Contour 1995 and up
Ford Mustang 1979-93
Porsche 924 1977-86 (standard)
Mercury Mystique 1995-96
14x5.5
Ford Fairmont/ and T-birds 1979 and up
Ford Granada/ LTD 1978-88
Mercury Cougar 1980-85
Mercury Capri 1974-86
I know that some of these had regular wheels stock, but the Mustangs, Focus, Contour, T-birds all not only came with nice looking wheels stock, but are also hugely popular to have aftermarket wheels installed on. Remember that these measurements come from a sample of cars, not all of them. So it is possible to find 5 lug stangs, and LTDs, it is also possible that a stock steelie on a Granada may measure out at 15x8. The point is that this guide is for reference to help you in your search, it is not necessarily all inclusive, or the gospel for all models of mustang. So measure before you buy.
Hope this helps.
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A great write up! We should archive or sticky this to make sure it stays around!
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I agree with you Dave. Good info!
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Thank you for the info,this will be a big help.Going to print this one out for sure.
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Nice write-up with an abundance of good ideas! Something cool to think on when you are out searching a local yard or see something in a local trader paper. Two thumbs up!
-beegle55
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i knew the ford mustang and t-bird would fit never thought about a saab or any other car makes!! thanks for the info.
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Thanks everyone, I am glad this is helpful. There are more vehicles than these, but most of the ones I left off were 13"ers also. I am huge into using the cheapest and best resources possible, and I hope to share some more Junk yard info in the future.
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THIS IS IMPORTANT!!! The hub size of the wheel should be correct.
Sure wheels with larger hub holes will fit, but you are risking your safety.
If the wheel hub hole did not matter every wheel maker would make huge holes and not include hub rings with their wheels. Think about it.
The purpose of the wheel hub hole is to center the wheel and take strong impacts. During a strong impact the threaded studs flex slightly while the hub takes the impact. If not, the threaded studs could bend or break.
If you use a wheel with a larger hub hole, look to buy a hub ring or have one machined.
Get your measuring calipers out! :o
You can search "hub ring" on ebay and get a large selection of sizes. It is just a ring of concentric aluminim to take up the space. If one can't be found, you can make a sketch drawing and have a machine shop make them. Use metal hub rings, not polycarbon or other plastic material.
Another tip...If the wheel hole fits snug to the hub or to the hub ring, make sure to apply "never seize" so the two do not rust together. These will be dis-similar materials and corrosion can occur. I am sure we all had a car or friend with a car where it was very difficult to get the wheel off.
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Ok, I should have been a little clearer here, but didn't think to explain it further. I said it didn't really matter because it doesn't to me, but please read the following information and make up your mind for yourself.
" Wheel Hub Centric Rings are designed to fill in the gap between the hub of the car and the center bore of the wheel. Most wheel manufacturers design their wheels with a centerbore large enough to fit on most cars. Therefore, since wheel manufactures make their center bore large enough to fit most cars, most wheel fitments have a gap between the hub and the centerbore. This gap usually doesn't allow for the wheel to fit hubcentric but rather lugcentric which may cause vibration. Therefore, to fill the gap and ensure the fitment is hubcentric, hub rings are used."
- as quoted by JustForWheels. com (who's business it is to sell hub rings)
So lets discuss hub rings, and hub sizes. Here I think Starliner and I are going to disagree a little and we will agree a little. Not all companies send rings in with their wheels. In fact in the 5 sets I have bought in the past, only one set came with these rings. These were specialty aluminum rims that used flat lug nuts (see explanation below). The rest of these rim sets I bought were steel (for racing or offroading), I think this is important because material the rim is made and lug type will make a difference for vibration. Another fact to point out is that the hub rings that came with the aforementioned aluminum rims, were plastic, which really doesn't do much when it comes to strong impacts.
I think it is also important to point out the types of lug nuts that can be used.
When I discuss lug types I of course refer to the shoulder types.
1. Conical/ Tapered- typical of a lug centric wheel
2. Ball/ radius- typical of a lug centric wheel
3. Flat- which does lend itself to being hubcentric only. Hub rings are a must here, but merely to center the wheel on the hub
The tapered, and ball type self center the wheel on the hub with only the use of the wheel bolts. This is why we tighten in a specific sequence, and torque in steps. If your rims use flats (this is where Starliner and I agree) you must use a hub ring, both to center the rim, and dampen vibration. Vibration can and will cause a flat lug to loosen itself. Which as we all know is bad.
So all of that being said the reader will need to make up their mind for themselves.
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We can agree to not agree.
That said, with a Pinto being very light in weight the hub fitting is not as critical as a heavy vehicle like as truck or SUV.
Cheers
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Regardless of how the lugs locate the wheel, in a Ford you should always have the correct size hub. Fords are pretty much always hub-centric and studs can break if you try to run it as lug-centric. It doesn't matter if you have the conical lug seat - the design took the wheel sitting on the hub into account. A set of 14" wheels I took off of another Pinto don't have a round center hole - it's flared in 4 spots to hold a cap. Since it doesn't sit completely on the hub, it appears to have gotten stress cracks around the hub over time. The hub-centric rings are also pretty much junk - some metal ones may be ok but even then I've heard varying reports. If you're going to go that route, go for quality and not price.
Also, chances are the Saab, 99+ Cougar, and Ford Contour/Mercury Mystique wheels will not fit a Pinto. Front wheel drive cars have a lot more positive offset. Basically, for choices, you have Fox body Mustangs and 4 lug Cougars/T-Birds. Wasn't the Granada 5x4.5? I recall those rotors being what you need to convert a Pinto front end to 5 lug.
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John at least do your homework before commenting on a thread.
Negative offset wheels - what you see when you see a deep dish wheel
Positive offset wheels- Generally found on front wheel drive cars.
By the way John yes the 78 Granada/ Fairmont was a fox body car, you know like the Mustangs that you comment about.
No wonder this site has nothing but old outdated information, you guys are not open to new ideas. I mean Starliner starts throwing out the Safety cones, and saying safety violation, yet he hasn't given any real facts that he has backed up. John starts spouting off something about non round holes, and stress cracks yet doesn't even know what the different types of offset are, or what they mean.
Do you guys even know how extremely rare it is to even see a broken lug bolt that wasn't due to installer error, like cross threading and impacting it down? I wouldn't have a problem with it if it were a real issue, and you backed it up with evidence. (like i did)
I am not only a 20+ year ASE certified mechanic, but an avid offroader of a Jeep running 35" tires. My wheels are lug centric, like 98% of all steel rims are, and I have taco-ed rims before breaking lugs. In fact I have never broken a lug, though I have broken D44 axles.
Do what you want with the thread, cause I am done with it and this site in general.
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You are correct about offset, I did mix them up and will edit the post. It was late at night and I should have known the difference. Regardless of mixing them up, those Saabs and later Fords are front wheel drive and the offset is most likely wrong for a Pinto.
And what does mixing up postive/negative offset have to do with knowledge about hub-centric vs. lug centric wheels? You're using one point I messed up on to invalidate a completely different one (which was just an observation that I wasn't saying is correct) without actually addressing it. Also, just because a vehicle uses conical or ball seat lugs doesn't mean that it is not hub-centric. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Also, Granadas are Fox Bodies, but they do in fact have a 5x4.5 bolt pattern - while the Mustangs and Fairmonts of the time were 4x4.25. Go look it up, using Granada rotors is how many people convert Pintos, Fox Body Mustangs, and Mustang II IFS kits in other cars to 5 lug. You shouldn't accuse me of not doing my research when you didn't either.
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To quote you John they are "most likely wrong" which would mean you do not know. My problem with your other post is you did not state it as opinion, but rather fact. If you do not know for sure then you need to research it. Also just to give you a heads up, I always research before making a post. ALWAYS. So as to whether a Granada has a 4 or 5 lug. Well we are both right. So there.
The Granada was made from 78-88 as was the LTD2, and the fairmont (which is the one I left off) all of these were made during these model years, and ALL of them at some point came with a four lug. For the Granada it was 1981-82 its last model year. It wasn't meant to read that they all came with 4 lugs (thats not the point of the original post anyway is it). What it means is between the years of 78-88 these are some cars to look at for 4 lug wheels. So I did look it up then, just as I did now to be sure (I wouldn't want to give mis-information). In fact the alloy wheel option on the 1981 ford Granada is not only a perfect fit, but a perfect look for the Pinto also.
Then we come to the point of lug-centric vs hub-centric (since we're beating a dead horse anyway) the original post doesn't sound like opinion, it sounds like you are stating what you believe to be fact, which would have made it unfounded fact.
Either way just like I said at the bottom of the write up.......
"I know that some of these had regular wheels stock, but the Mustangs, Focus, Contour, T-birds all not only came with nice looking wheels stock, but are also hugely popular to have aftermarket wheels installed on. Remember that these measurements come from a sample of cars, not all of them. So it is possible to find 5 lug stangs, and LTDs, it is also possible that a stock steelie on a Granada may measure out at 15x8. The point is that this guide is for reference to help you in your search, it is not necessarily all inclusive, or the gospel for all models of mustang. So measure before you buy."
So getting past all of that there is also another thing I would like to say John, both to you and Starliner.
I am sorry, I took your arguments as personal when all I wanted was to help people. It doesn't mean that I think either of you are right in your opinion, it means I got personal by taking it personal, when I should just let the write up stand alone, and let people make up their own minds.
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Like!
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I wasn't trying to attack you, I just don't want to see people take advice that may cause a problem. You wouldn't be too happy if someone told you that you could put a set of wheels on your car, only to find out they wouldn't clear after you paid the money and got home from the junkyard.
It also is a fact that Fords are hub-centric. You may be able to run lug-centric wheels, but the car was not intended to use them.
What I can find on the Saab wheels is that the offset seems to be at least +41, up to +49 on some cars. I'll bet you that won't work correctly on a Pinto or any RWD car with the bolt pattern. I can't find the numbers for the Pinto, Mustang II, Fox Body, etc but I know it's less than that. Not only will there be more positive offset, but it will be a wider wheel too.
You worded it like it was fact. "It means that junk yard wheels will fit your Pinto, but what do you look for?" and then a list - someone could easily see that and go out and buy a set of wheels that won't fit based on your post. It happens all of the time on the internet.
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In all honesy, he did put his disclaimer at the end. Anyone who reads fine print or an entire article before making a decision would catch it. Even if they didn't read the whole thing and took the majority of the article as fact, they still couldn't hold him accountable since he included his disclaimer.
Its all very common in liscense agreements and contracts. In the possible negative outcome for someone taking the entire thing as fact, the real only person that can be held responsible for purchasing wheels in error is the consumer/reader.
This is one of the great things about message boards like this one. People can post replies with more in depth information, comments and questions, and the original post can always be revised with new information or facts. If he wanted to make this idea public and state it as fact he could post it as an article elsewhere or in a magazine, which he did not.
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Thanks Dave.
I read an entire article before I make decisions. If your read the entire article it says that junkyard rims "will fit". Every vehicle listed has the same wheel lug pattern as the Pinto, which is the point of the article. It doesn't say that those wheels will be right for the vehicle. In fact at the bottom of the article, quoted for a third time.......
"The point is that this guide is for reference to help you in your search","So measure before you buy."
So I don't know how many different ways to say it. It just seems that when you can't prove a point (like the Granada)you just evolve your argument until you are on a tangent that is nit picking.
You are still saying that all Fords are hub centric, and it is a fact, yadda, yadda, yadda, yet still even after calling you out to prove this "known fact" you still have not. So where is the proof, beyond just your say so. I mean you talk about misleading people, but you have still not proven the point.
Either way I am not going to argue it anymore, you have succeeded in hijacking the thread. However if someone has questions about the information provided in this thread, I will be more than happy to help you out, so just message me.
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You are still saying that all Fords are hub centric, and it is a fact, yadda, yadda, yadda, yet still even after calling you out to prove this "known fact" you still have not. So where is the proof, beyond just your say so. I mean you talk about misleading people, but you have still not proven the point.
Where am I going to find an article to link to explicitly stating this? Reading through Explorer/Ranger forums It seems to be the consensus, and companies mention it when they sell wheels to fit Fords. Really you just need to look at how a factory Ford wheel fits - they're all nice and tight around the hub.
Where's the proof to your 'fact' that 98% of steel wheels are lug-centric?
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I am starting to get the vibe that this is becoming more of a competitive argument and less of a discussion. May I recomend further arguments be limited to personal messages?
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Hello Jessi,
I think it is very good to get as many opinions as possible while keeping it in a positive manner.
This is a discussion forum. We get more value by having a volley of opinions and information.
I think it was valid for me to point out the safety and concentricity concerns as part of this discussion.
I owned a foreign car repair facility for eight years from 1973-1981 (serviced VW, Opels, & Capri). I also did a lot of drag racing and street racing.
Today I work for a corporation and I am now in charge of our China manufacturing facility and I am also director of engineering. I have been involved heavily with hybrid cars in China and have full knowledge of all aspects of vehicle dynamics.
I thank you very much for the extra effort you put forth to give everyone various wheel options. It is very good information.
This is a great Pinto community and a good resource. I don't want to alienate anyone.
So please accept my apology if I came on too strong with my comments.
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Hmm,I believe 75-80 Granadas were not on a Fox platform
as they have leaf springs.They were 5 lug.
81-82 Granadas were Foxes with 4 lug pattern,my 81 Granada
bracket wagon is all Fox.
The Fox wagons came with 10 in brakes and the axle centering ring
was larger than the 9 in. brake rears which meant the die grinder and
the 10 hole wheels became aquainted to fit correctly.
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Thanks for this info! Question: you list Focus, 2000 and later; will the 17" rims (7" width) fit? Looks like a 215/45R17 would match the stock size for height pretty well, just not sure about the other parameters.
Thanks!
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Hope you stay on the site! Your info was great. Sorry about the disagreement taking over. I'll take any info, advice, suggestions, check 'em out and see what works. To me, what fits, fits. It's your job to see to know if it's what you need, safe for your use, and what you need. Cars running around on space saver sparescome to mind. hey do any of them fit a Pinto? (Sarcasm)
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I know this is a two year old post, but it seems intended to provide necessary information and I feel I can add to it. Recently I was at the junkyard and did a test fit on a 78 Bobcat with a "16x6 1999 and up Mercury Cougar" wheel as listed in the initial post. This wheel did NOT fit.
Once I was aware of the lack of fitment I just moved on. However, to the best of my recollection it seemed the center hole was not large enough. This seems odd because this wheel is listed as a 63.4mm opening and that is what was stated as the Pinto hub size in the first post. So, perhaps the upper ball joint was hitting? Though, that seems odd for a car that came with 13" wheels.
I have also extensively read (but not tested) that many of the Mustang wheels (Turbine/Hurricane, 10 Hole) need a spacer on the front to clear suspension parts. While the list is encouraging for options it seems the real world "bolt on" prospects diminish through trial and error. Proceed with caution.
Tom
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Any FWD wheel will be too high of an offset. Like the Cougars. My 15x7 +12 Enkeis are a pretty low offset, and they still hit the ball joint and control arm without spacers. I rounded off the edge of the ball joint flange and they fit with sticky weights, but the lip hit the side of the control arm at full lock.
Be aware: The wheel may clear the ball joint barely, but then jam into the control arm at full lock. The ball joint actually sits outside of the stock tiny, low offset wheels. Any wheel that sits OVER the ball joint will have control arm clearance issues.
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Another addition to an old post, but I think this info belongs here, like Wittsend said in 2013.
I’m looking around for replacement wheels for my 72 wagon in The Netherlands, using 4x108mm bolt pattern and 63.4 mm hub center diameter as guideline.
Soon found out that although many Ford FWD (for example Focus) wheels fit these requirements, the offset is way too big, like ET 40 to ET 52!
Better to hunt here (Europe) for Peugeot and Citroën FWD wheels because these have the same bolt pattern, but the offset is more realistic for our purposes, between ET 23 and ET 28. Hub center diameter is 65.1 mm, so center rings required.
As it happens I came across four 25 mm wheel adapters, which were bought and test fitted.
They seemed to be to lose around the hub center. Measurement of the hub center resulted in 61.9 mm (axle is a 6.75 WGF – N)! This problem can be solved by cutting some 0.75 mm sheet metal and fitting this between the hub center and adapter.
I have nowhere found any information about this (different hub center diameter for earlier generation Pinto’s), and another mystery; according to fordification. com my axle is a 74-76 piece.
I also haven’t found any reliable data on stock ET (wheel offset) numbers for early Pinto’s, just a mention of 10 mm offset for stock Mustang II’s.
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Hey 72Dutch wagon, you can use wheels off a early capri over there , should be few there in you neck of the woods, or go to burtonpower.co m and look at the catalog they have under minilite wheels , they have them from 13X5 all the way up to 15X10, and 108 MM (4 1/4 ") spacers also ,
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Hey pinto_one,
yes, you're right, 13 inch capri, taunus escort and cortina wheels still around.
But I'm looking for 15 inch on a budget, even steel ones, there's plenty around in a radius of 50 miles, and I don't want (need) to spend more then $ 150, including reasonable tires...
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Good luck , the only 15" steel wheel with that bolt patern are rare 1985-86 fox body,Mustangs, fairmont police cars, they were 15X7 , AND the ford part number is E6ZZ-1007A , early cheep ones are 14" hope this helps
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Any 14 inch 4 bolt Foxbody Mustang wheel fits. The're everywhere cheap. If you find other 14 inch wheels that fit, and center hole is too small. Contact Racer Walsh in Jacksonville Florida for wheel spacers. I have been using the 14 inch Mustang wheels for racing, never had any issue.
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Woah! Some kinda wheel drama there!
I read through this thread(my head hurts now), and some others, but wasn't able to find if anyone has determined if 1985 mustang gt's factory ten hole "phone dial" ford 4 lug wheels will fit a 76. I'm switching over to the 5 lug eventually, but I need new tires now, as I drive mine daily. And they're about the same diameter I think I'll end up with after the 5 lug swap.
Ps. Wrapped in 225 60 15's.
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When i junked my 83 mustang convertible, (4lug) i put the wheels on my 79 pinto (4lug) with no lug troubles,, Only hang up i had was the tire profile on the front, (plastic fender liners rubbed). Dont see why they wouldnt bolt up.... :)
SR
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What nobody has talked about is after market "mag" wheels. If the fit of the center hole was so important, why do the majority of the company's sell their wheels with an oversize hub hole? I have raced ever kind of automobile on ever kind of track and the majority of the wheels were located only by the lug bolts. The wheel company's make their wheels to fit many cars with hubs in many sizes. If the clearance of the hub was so important why would they do this. I ran American Libra 13x7 wheels on all of my Pinto's and the center holes of those wheels was not only bigger than the hub it was as casted from American Wheels. The Libra wheel was the most used wheel in road racing in the 70/80 in SCCA and U-2 Trans am. There are many things to worry about on a car today but how your wheels are held on is not one of them. If you really need to worry about something, go worry about people using FWD wheels on their RWD cars with 1 to 2 inch spacers/adapters to make them fit. That is really BAD! Just remember that if it works on a race car it will be overkill on the street. And bad mouthing Jessi should be a no no on this forum. Keep up the good work Jessi and please keep on posting on here.
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I just bought 2 sets of Bassett Racing wheels part # 47SP4S from Summit for vintage racing this season . They should also make great road wheels.
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Dick makes an interesting point. The placement of the studs, the taper on the nut, the accuracy of the stamped steel wheel are all potentially ripe for some degree of inaccuracy. Then, what value is there in a hub-centric wheel? In a perfect world, yea, an aluminum wheel hub-centric to precision studs and bolts is all well and good. But, you better have the tire trued too. And, even there, regardless of balance on the rim a tire that has more weight to any area will elongate the faster it spins.
All this said, I think the hub issue most are encountering with current 4.25" wheels (Escort, Cougar etc.) is the center hole is too small for the hub on the Pinto - even putting the offset issue aside. I tried the Cougar wheel on a Bobcat and couldn't get it over the hub. I'd be careful to trust some of the wheel charts out there. Most only consider the bolt pattern and not hub hole size or offset. FWIW, I put the 16" factory '88 T/C wheels on my Pinto (for a while). I had to space them off the rear spring about 1/4" and they rubbed on the front fender somewhat with the 225-60-16" tires. Not ideal. And, I thought they looked out of place too. See...
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I'm not a fan the phone dials. The only reason I'm considering them is just the price and the fact that it would be temporary. My main concern is just the offset and any rubbing. Big holes, little holes... I can deal with holes of all sizes!
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Out of curiosity, has there been any updates to this list? Also, is this list for the 4 or 5 lugs roters/drums??
Drag
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Just for the record, the wheels in my profile pic are from a '91 TBird. 14" for sure.