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Author Topic: Taking the turbo plunge!  (Read 72235 times)

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Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #150 on: May 16, 2015, 12:14:18 PM »
An F150/250/etc. frame-mounted pump like Wittsend has is the only one I know of, but surely there are others. Early 2.3T cars had two pumps, but I don't know that the external one is suitable for use without the accompanying low-pressure lift pump in the tank.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Online Wittsend

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #151 on: May 16, 2015, 06:10:24 PM »
Have you tried any pumps from other cars that have similar needs? As in something I could pull at the yard?

If you skipped over post 146 have a look.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #152 on: May 16, 2015, 10:48:27 PM »
If you skipped over post 146 have a look.


I must have! I think you posted a few seconds before I did, and I just missed that altogether. That will get me going until I can get something shiny.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #153 on: May 18, 2015, 12:17:40 AM »
And what is the advantage/disadvantage of running a blow off valve? I don't like the noise they make, but is it worth the annoyance? Or just a gold chain wearin', faux hawk sportin', coffee can tail pipe havin' toy for the dig-me-disco boys?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Offline oldkayaker

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #154 on: May 18, 2015, 07:11:16 AM »
Just from reading.  When under heavy load and the throttle is quickly shut, a large back pressure develops causing turbo problems (the blow off valve releases this back pressure).  This usually is only a concern with a large intercooler (big reservoir).  Ford did not feel the need for a blow off valve with their Lima turbo offerings (small or no intercoolers).  If you are going with a front mount intercooler, a blow off valve would probably be good.  To minimize the noise, use a blow off bypass valve that releases the pressure to the turbo inlet (after air the filter and air meter if used).  If using a pressure release valve, the blow off bypass version is needed if using a air flow meter so all air used by the engine is measured.   The standard blow off valve version just releases the air to the local atmosphere (unmetered), creating the unmuffled noise.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #155 on: May 18, 2015, 08:53:03 PM »
Blowoff valves also often leak when manifold vacuum is high which can let unfiltered, unmetered air into the intake stream. Loud blowoff valves developed into a market segment of their own simply from the riceboy factor. I guess if their factory turbo is too small to hear, they compensate in other ways...

Borg Warner's top-shelf EFR (Engineered For Racing) turbos have a bypass valve integrated right into the compressor housing. There's a reason  they and just about every OEM out there do it that way.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #156 on: May 18, 2015, 11:11:30 PM »
Yeah, I think I talked myself out of that idea. I'm trying to decide on which pulley system to go with now(v-belt or serpentine). I think the alt. pulleys will change over so I can run the serpentine with my pinto alt. bracket and original alt. Or I can switch all the v-pulleys to the turbo, but I'm not certain that the timing marks will match, not certain they won't either. I like the idea of the serpentine, and it seems less of hassle. And maybe trimming all the extra pulleys that won't have a belt on them.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #157 on: May 18, 2015, 11:29:57 PM »
I'm also looking at clutch options. I'm thinking a stage 2, don't think I need more, but am I wrong? Is a stage 3 to stiff for a daily driver? And what are the best brands to look at?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #158 on: May 18, 2015, 11:41:50 PM »
I'm running a stock Turbo Coupe replacement clutch in my car and it feels a lot like a typical stock clutch, but bites harder than the tires can. A Pinto is going to be a lot easier on it than the 3400-3600lb 'Bird, especially with some gear and short tires.

The clutch was branded as Luk, but the disc said Valeo who has been an OEM supplier to Ford for a long time.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #159 on: May 19, 2015, 03:31:57 AM »
The n/a motors have a different size clutch, right? I thought I picked up on that somewhere. Otherwise I would pull the stage 2 off that motor.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Online Wittsend

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #160 on: May 19, 2015, 12:30:46 PM »
I recall someone saying that are actually the same clutch.  When I was at the yard getting my bellcrank bellhousing (years ago) I noticed that the clutch disc was decent (A Valero). A few days later I got a disc at Autozone and frankly it was thinner that the used one at the yard. A few days after that I was passing the yard went in, and sure enough the disc and pressure plate were still there.  I popped then up on the counter, the guy said $8.00 and I yanked my wallet out so fast it probably broke the sound barrier.

Like 65SC said the tires are weaker than the clutch. With the bellcrank the pedal is light and very progressive.  In my option the smoothness of engagement makes it an ideal setup for teaching someone how to drive a stick shift. Perhaps if your incline to dump the clutch..., less so.  For me who likes to impress my passengers with a gradual but steady increase in throttle/boost from 40 MPH in 3rd gear clutch bite is irrelevant.

Regarding the Luk clutch, I put one in my old Mazda 323. Luk doesn't seem to necessarily to be a manufacturer, but rather a compiler of parts. My Luk clutch had a disc from Mexico, a P- plate from South Africa, a throw-out bearing from Japan and the alignment tool was from right here in the USA.  Regardless my searching reviews showed people liked them and I's say they have a good reputation.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #161 on: May 20, 2015, 12:23:11 AM »
I'm pulling the n/a motor this weekend, so I'll know soon.

I think I'm going to replace the voltage regulator before the pinto assimilates the tbird harness. It's got what may be the original v.r. in it still. Spiky as hell!

I got the serpentine water pump pulley to separate gracefully, leaving only the alternator grooves. Just looks cleaner. The alt. pulley looks like a straight swap over, to the pinto alt.. I am concerned that with the added dc draw of the engine management, 12v fuel pump and 12v fan, I may want to get a stronger alternator. Any thoughts about that?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #162 on: May 20, 2015, 12:15:28 PM »
Hopefully 65 SC will chime in. He put an upgrade alternator in, but I'm not versed on it to speak.  With a wagon I opted to put the battery in the drivers side, front. I used the factory alternator, but made my own bracket out of bed frame angle iron (the factory T/C bracket is large and ugly).  My goal was to get the alternator as close to the engine as possible as I needed the clearance for the battery.  The bracket needed a few notches as I'm sure you can see near the alternator and the timing belt cover. The wrap around on the water pump is minimal, but I have not had slippage problems.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #163 on: May 20, 2015, 06:54:40 PM »
I went with a Ford 3G 130A alternator with an integrated voltage regulator...fi xed two potential problems there. System voltage doesn't even sag at idle when the fan comes on, but the dual v-belts do slip occasionally. I think the stock 2.3T alternator was about 85A.

Luckily I snagged a Pinto alternator bracket set so I can 1.) move the alternator where it ought to be, 2.) Install the A/C compressor, 3) tighten the belts more, and 4.) fit a 90° rotated upper intake without hitting a high-mount alternator.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #164 on: May 21, 2015, 04:38:36 AM »
I have another issue I'm mulling over now, too. Is the fan control from the computer a progressive two part circuit, to run the primary and secondary fan? Or do they both get the same signal? And is it necessary to let the ecu control the fan. I plan to run a single flexlite type fan, and I think I would prefer to run an independent adjustable thermal on it, if the computer doesn't have any objections.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #165 on: May 21, 2015, 11:35:04 AM »
The secondary fan as best I know it for when the A/C is used only.  I am not using a secondary fan though I am running an electric (Pusher) fan off the primary side using the factory relay box.  I do not think the ECU is effected. Likely the temp sender provides a signal to the ECU and when hot enough that triggers the fan relay. It might throw a code (if it can even detect the fan not spinning), but I doubt it throws the ECU into the "limp home" mode.  I say that because if the temp stays low enough the fan never runs. And, my experience is that unless you are in Stop N Go it doesn't come on.  I'm not sure why many eliminate the relay box. It is already wired in and works for the fuel pump also.

Relay box on the left (black box/white label, mounted just ahead of the VAM hose).

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #166 on: May 22, 2015, 03:07:38 AM »
I was thinking about the stand alone fan system for 2 reasons, the adjustability and I don't know what temp the ecu triggers.

On the oil pan subject again... If I remove the oil pump to get the pick-up tube off, do I need to prime it upon re-install? And should I just replace the oil pump while I'm in there? I would have no problem if I knew more about the history and mileage of this motor, but I worry about changing oil pressure and blowing out seals. Some motor don't like new oil pumps until rebuild time.

The pinto dip stick should sit at the same relative height, to the pan, in either block, as long as it's in the front hole, right? They look like they are about the same height, but I haven't pulled the n/a yet to measure it too.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #167 on: May 24, 2015, 11:36:29 PM »
 Oil pump replaced and pinto pick up tube installed. Had to cut off the bolt end that was sticking out of the main bearing cap to hold the tbird pick up tube, to get the pinto pan on there. I could have just replaced it with another bolt without that on it, but I didn't want to take a chance on queering the bearing.

 Made a discovery, on the tbird dip stick there are 2 marias, as the pinto has has only one. If you were to remove the outer maria on the tbird stick, it then lines up from the 1 maria of each to the oil level lines of both the sticks. So either can work in the front hole, and be accurate.

Got a new center force clutch ordered.

 My pulley quandary goes on. I need to replace my water pump if I go with the v belt, as the tbird pump has smaller diameter shaft. Or do some "adjustments" to the alt. and brackets to run the serpentines.

Got the engine de-greased, and the fender wall cut out where the battery used to live. I'll cut a template and then a patch, weld it in place, do the firewall mod and a little painting. Moving along pretty well, for me anyways.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #168 on: May 26, 2015, 11:28:19 PM »
An update with pics.
Look what I caught!



Cherry picked.




Hole with template. Notice the ugly firewall seam?!



Much more better!!!



Got to cut the fender patch and put a couple folds on it, then run some stitches everywhere, and see what happens. Might redo most of the core support in square tube. Looks like the bottom squished up pretty good. Can't have that. Watch my ocd twitch!
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #169 on: May 27, 2015, 11:55:45 PM »









1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #170 on: May 29, 2015, 03:19:23 AM »
Got the alternator bracket shaved and mocked up.



I got the t5 installed and the clutch cable run. Other than drilling the cross brace for the trans. mount and opening up the shifter hole a skoash, it was an easy fit. I am going to ad some more sheet metal to the back end of the shifter hole, to center it back around the shifter mounting plate.




1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #171 on: May 29, 2015, 11:13:15 AM »
The removed panel look very similar to what I did. I used a little Bondo to blend the new panel. I was apprehensive to do so, but 7 years later nothing had cracked or melted.

  How is your clearance on the boost control actuator? I curved my panel downward and I still barely have any clearance.


Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #172 on: May 29, 2015, 02:15:50 PM »
What's ironic is that the smaller IHI turbo you guys are running has less clearance than the larger T3 that I'm using which has a larger wastegate actuator. The difference is that the T3's WGA is tucked between the turbo and engine.

In fact, I think it would have been unnecessary to cut up the inner fender of my car. Would have saved a lot of work...
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #173 on: May 29, 2015, 02:35:00 PM »
That is true. You can rotate the turbo intake housing around and move it a bit..., but then that throws off the alignment with the intercooler.  To that end I feel I have some premature wastegate bleed from doing so. I can get full boost, but I think the exhaust is slipping by on the way to getting there.  I should probably just cut a notch so I can set it where it needs to be and stop trying to be so "cute" with my dedicated (but movement restricted) are I fabricated for it.

 I also have a feeling the 87-88 T/C's probably had the turbo mounted lower to make room for the intercooler. But, not having anything to compare to it is only a guess.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #174 on: May 29, 2015, 03:00:07 PM »
Everything on the turbo side is effectively interchangeabl e with the turbo/manifold/intercooler from an SVO (only ever equipped with a T3), so I think any difference in orientation would be from the T3's larger compressor housing.

Stock '87-88 'Birds make full boost by ~2200-2400rpm in higher gears, so I would expect 2400-2800 in a lighter Pinto with shorter tires and/or more gear.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #175 on: May 30, 2015, 10:15:54 AM »
The removed panel look very similar to what I did. I used a little Bondo to blend the new panel. I was apprehensive to do so, but 7 years later nothing had cracked or melted.

  How is your clearance on the boost control actuator? I curved my panel downward and I still barely have any clearance.

I'm actually going patch it back in flat and flush, but from the frame, up to about 5"-6", I'm going to fab an access panel that can be pulled from the wheel side. Just through the assembly process, I decided this is a must. No clearance issues with my planned panel fitting.

 The hood... well I'm just glad I have a crappy hood with a patch over an old air cleaner hole to work with, cuz I'ts getting another hole too.

 I have the wiring all in place and ready to pull back out to tape and sleeve for final install. Got the exhaust tied in to my previous 2.5 system.

My clutch is on back order though. Centerforce is on sale right now, so shelves are sparse. I Got a new heater motor, but it's not what was supposed to be.

Do any of you know who makes u-joints for building mix and match drivelines? And who makes this speedo T for a wc t5?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Offline 65ShelbyClone

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #176 on: May 30, 2015, 05:32:17 PM »
You might be better off using a cable and VSS from another car like an '87-93 Mustang. They used a cable for the speedo and had a separate VSS for the EFI/cruise control that it fit into on the trans end. I just don't know if the speedo end would fit the Pinto cluster nor if the pulses per revolution is the same.

http://www.americanmuscle.com/pyi-speedsensor-8793.html

The type of u-joint for mating different yoke sizes is called a combination u-joint. The most likely one you would need is a 1310/1330 combination and they are widely available from many manufacturers.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Offline 76hotrodpinto

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #177 on: June 01, 2015, 01:34:56 AM »
The type of u-joint for mating different yoke sizes is called a combination u-joint. The most likely one you would need is a 1310/1330 combination and they are widely available from many manufacturers.

So that size would tie in the yolk that fit into the wc t5 to the mustangII driveline?

I'm having a hard time not buying a rotated intake and going with a front mount intercooler. The only issue I'm concerned with, is the egr tube. If I delete it, will it have an adverse affect on my motor, or the computers ability to run it correctly? I have the pinto alt. bracket installed, and it's just saying"front mount intercooler... front mount intercooooler. ..".
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #178 on: June 01, 2015, 01:27:05 PM »
I deleted my EGR and can't say I've had any adverse affects from it. That said, I haven't run without it much (my Pinto sees maybe 500 miles a year).  My reason for deleting it was not functionality. It was more so that it freed up a lot of space and aesthetically looked better.  Some have wondered if it would increase combustion chamber temperatures. At least audibly I can't tell that pinging and detonation is present.

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Re: Taking the turbo plunge!
« Reply #179 on: June 01, 2015, 05:35:17 PM »
On my VSS sensor I took off my 90 bronco II and took the cable too, yes it does fit the pinto speedometer,

76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0