Author Topic: A 1972 turbo swap adventure (Read 98721 times)

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #120 on:** November 21, 2014, 01:21:56 PM »

I put a 2.5" louvered glasspack and side-facing turndown on the car last night and it cut down the snap and turbine whistle dramatically. It also made the car quieter and better-sounding outside, but made low-frequency interior resonance about 10x worse! Seriously, -30dB earplugs are completely ineffective against it now. A shooter's headset works much better, but that's no solution (and it's probably illegal like headphones). Back to the open downpipe for now. My tentative goal is to have a full and finished 2.5" exhaust system before Christmas.

Wittsend · « **Reply #121 on:** November 21, 2014, 02:26:02 PM »

Isn't resonance the worse! I have a 318Valiant and between 1,900-2,600 RPM it seems like an acoustic weapon. At 2,600 RPM it is like someone pulled the plug and it gets quiet. No crossover pipe. I have 2" off the manifolds dump into a 3" pipe and then an acoustic resonance chamber called a Flowmaster muffler. But hey, it sounds awesome at idle LOL.

It would be an interesting court challenge regarding the passive ear protectors. The law states (I believe) that it is the wired headphones that are the issue. And it poses the question then if deaf people should be allowed to drive??? Seems you could argue you are being discriminated against as a hearing capable person. It also brings up the point of jeopardy that to comply with the law you then go deaf and that is worse than using the ear protectors.

OK, I've WAY over thought this and a cop would probably just say, "Fix the D*mn exhaust." I just have a problem with laws that aren't thought through to their logical end.

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #122 on:** November 21, 2014, 03:27:44 PM »

Quote from: Wittsend on November 21, 2014, 02:26:02 PM

Isn't resonance the worse! I have a 318Valiant and between 1,900-2,600 RPM it seems like an acoustic weapon. At 2,600 RPM it is like someone pulled the plug and it gets quiet. No crossover pipe. I have 2" off the manifolds dump into a 3" pipe and then an acoustic resonance chamber called a Flowmaster muffler. But hey, it sounds awesome at idle LOL.

That is exactly why I refuse to use Flowmaster mufflers on my own vehicles. They drone in more installations than not and in some of the most popular applications like Mustangs, they drone very badly. There are things that can be done to mitigate it like installing a Helmholtz resonator to cancel the resonant frequenies, but that shouldn't be necessary. I had some 40 series Flows under an '89 Mustang hatchback(notoriously prone to resonance) and would induce headaches between about 1500 and 2300rpm with the stock h-pipe. An x-pipe helped some, but not enough.

Fun fact: '87-93 5.0 Mustangs had mufflers that were two different sizes.

I'll be using a perforated-core oval muffler in the stock location on my Pinto.

Quote

It would be an interesting court challenge regarding the passive ear protectors. The law states (I believe) that it is the wired headphones that are the issue. And it poses the question then if deaf people should be allowed to drive??? Seems you could argue you are being discriminated against as a hearing capable person. It also brings up the point of jeopardy that to comply with the law you then go deaf and that is worse than using the ear protectors.

I found that CA vehicle code section 24700directly addresses this. In typical gooberment fashion, there is a lot of room for interpretation:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d12/c5/a3.5/27400

I'd argue my case with paragraph (d.).

Quote

OK, I've WAY over thought this and a cop would probably just say, "Fix the D*mn exhaust." I just have a problem with laws that aren't thought through to their logical end.

The citing officer would probably give me a moving violation for the earplugs and a fix-it ticket for the exhaust.

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #123 on:** March 09, 2015, 11:32:54 PM »

It's been 3.5 months already? Sheesh.

I ordered some new coil springs today to hopefully fix the sagging front end. I also picked up a (free) hood yesterday that I was going to cut up to fit over the engine, but I think it's too rough to warrant straightening it out.

I'm also shopping for exhaust parts and trying to decide if I want 2.5" or 3.0" out the back. 3" would mean never having to redo it if the power was substantially increased in the future. It's not going to be a primary driver anymore, so now that's an option. If only I hadn't sold that Holset HX40 turbo a while back...

Srt · « **Reply #124 on:** March 10, 2015, 02:45:52 AM »

If it doesn't go low 13's or high 12's with what you have now there's something not right.

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #125 on:** April 04, 2015, 09:27:26 PM »

Low 13s could be a possibility although my butt dyno is pretty inaccurate.

News:
- Got a set of 2.3 "Pinto" low mount alternator brackets....bu t they're not from any Ford car.

I have to modify the alternator case, but that shouldn't be difficult with machine shop access.
- I have a Borg Warner S200 turbo in the mail. Came off a diesel, needs a compressor seal, but not bad for $63 otd. The compressor map is enormous and it will support ~220hp and 15psi up to about 480hp and 40psi.

- Got my springs. Now I just need a balljoint separator so I can install them.

Next week I'll probably order a 3" muffler and tubing. Thought I was going to stick with 2.5", but eh, might as well have room to grow for that turbo.

Srt · « **Reply #126 on:** April 05, 2015, 03:37:39 AM »

It also still has the stock rear end with 3.55s, so that's where some of the punch comes from. Hopefully it doesn't break before I can get the 8" installed.

with 20 to 30 lbs and that gear and with the tires you have (in the pics) you should be able to get into the low 13's high 12's in 3rd gear in a 1/4 mile.

Wittsend · « **Reply #127 on:** April 05, 2015, 10:35:08 AM »

I can certainly attest to the front end boobing up and down with a 2.3 Turbo in a 71-73 car. What springs are you installing? I look forward to the see the results. Friday I was at the Sun Valley yards and considered getting 2.8 front spring. But, the Pinto and Bobcat (wagons, both V-6's) that were there were both void of their front suspension. :-( My fault, those cars have been there for months and I missed my opportunity.

In the video, what RPM are you shifting at? With my IHI and 2-1/4" exhaust there isn't much of anything past 4,500-5,000 RPM. Straight out drag racing type of acceleration isn't much of a wow factor. I find wider eyes from my passengers when I'm in 3rd gear going about 35-40 MPH and slowly squeeze the gas pedal down. Where as other 4 cylinder cars seem to barely acknowledge the input the turbo Pinto acts like it was on a bungee cord and it had just been let go. :-)

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #128 on:** April 05, 2015, 12:36:21 PM »

Quote from: Wittsend on April 05, 2015, 10:35:08 AM

What springs are you installing?

I got some for a 2.3 with A/C.

Quote

In the video, what RPM are you shifting at?

My guess was around 5000-5200. Upon looking at the audio waveform from the video, the soft limiter hit at 5135. After dragging out the tuning laptop to see the actual settings, the hard limiter is 5500 with a 400rpm soft zone, so the soft limiter comes in at 5100. Whew! I spend too much time with engineers...

Ultimately that rev limiter should be pushed up. A lot. It's not done pulling at 5k, so maybe I'll set it a few hundred above the point that power noses over. I think the factory limiter was about 6500rpm.

Wittsend · « **Reply #129 on:** April 05, 2015, 04:30:23 PM »

Thanks, I'm looking forward to your evaluation of these springs given I'm basically in the same situation. Some talk about the V-6 springs, but I'm wondering what the weight difference between a 2.3 and a 2.8 is. I'd be curious to know if they are the same and/or if the A/C springs are stronger on one side???

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #130 on:** April 05, 2015, 10:37:58 PM »

The 2.8 non-A/C springs cross reference to a 2.3 with A/C. The difference in rate between a 2.8/AC and non-A/C application is only about 11 lbs/in. It's not at all like going +200 lb/in an old Mustang. That is exactly what will happen when I put 620lb coils in my '68.

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #131 on:** April 15, 2015, 11:08:56 PM »

Things that make you go hmmm...

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #132 on:** April 23, 2015, 07:38:06 PM »

It looked frightful when I opened the box,

but not anymore.

It's a Borg Warner S200 series with a 56mm inducer that makes it known as an S256. It does not have an extended-tip compressor, but will still support ~450+hp and 50+psi. The turbine is a 0.70 A/R so it should spool well, but it's only wastegated on one side. I'm not sure how well it will control boost that way since Holsets frequently creep with similar housings. I thought about modifying the wastegate arm/puck with a dual setup and drilling another wastegate passage, but the flapper is sealed behind a peened-on cap. I would have to spot mill the divots out to remove it without knowing if it could be reinstalled... just to see what's under it. No one seems to know anything detailed about these turbos either. Guess I need bigger injectors in any case.

If it turns out to have good seals and bearings, then it will be the best $63 I've spent in a while.

Srt · « **Reply #133 on:** April 24, 2015, 03:56:27 AM »

what was the original application for this turbo?

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #134 on:** April 24, 2015, 09:56:36 AM »

It's from a diesel and judging by the original color, likely a Caterpillar. Don't know if it's from a generator, pump, or road application and I didn't really care because I could tell from the photos that it had at least a 53mm compressor.... just a bonus to find it was 56mm.

This turbo is comparable a Holset HX/HY35 and HE-34_ series, only a bit more robust and it has an even larger compressor map.

In other news, yesterday I ended up with some 13" Minilite-style wheels and tires.

Gonna pick up lugnuts tomorrow.

Wittsend · « **Reply #135 on:** April 24, 2015, 09:33:44 PM »

What is the expected outcome of the turbo change? Or better said, what did you see lacking with the original setup?

Love the Minilites (waiting for pictures), but will 13" tires be sufficient - with the new turbo?

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #136 on:** April 25, 2015, 10:59:12 AM »

Quote from: Wittsend on April 24, 2015, 09:33:44 PM

What is the expected outcome of the turbo change? Or better said, what did you see lacking with the original setup?

Currently, nothing is lacking with the stock turbo.

However, in the future I plan to add a ported head, ported intake, ported E6 or tubular manifold, a cam, and more boost. My 60-trim/0.63 A/R T3 will support close to 300rwhp, but it won't be happy nor efficient doing it. It's very likely to lose the thrust bearing at that level or even break the shaft. The S256 will play nice at ~220rwhp all the way up to numbers that would fold the stock rods.

Quote

Love the Minilites (waiting for pictures), but will 13" tires be sufficient - with the new turbo?

They're barely sufficient at stock 2.3T power levels.

I'll be using longer gears when the 8" goes in, so that will tame it a bit.

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #137 on:** April 25, 2015, 10:09:23 PM »

Really, I'm trying not to spam this thread, but....

Those wheels sure change the look of the car.

Before that I was playing with the EFI a bit trying new settings and took it out for a spin. It's been raining sporadically all day and the road was damp so I knew traction would be reduced. I went a few miles and turned around. Coming back, I eased through first to avoid the inevitable wheel spin. After an easy shift into second, I rolled into the throttle. The boost came up and it started spinning. I had to pedal it again and again, "Bwaaap! Bwaaaaap! Bwaaaaaaap!" Running out of gear, I pulled into third and pedaled the throttle some more. Finally into fourth and suddenly it sounded like the clutch was slipping. You know when the engine RPM wavers without your speed changing? Like that. "But it's new and I have a stock setup!"

There was a difference though....the clutch wasn't slipping, but the back end was squirming from side to side! Fading into the rear view was an ethereal blue haze and two faint black shadows behind each tire.

I have never driven a car before that would do that.

The grin was ear-to-ear....

Srt · « **Reply #138 on:** April 26, 2015, 03:14:42 AM »

what kind of boost is it pumping now? (before the newer one is adapted-before all the other engine/head mods)

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #139 on:** April 26, 2015, 07:59:44 PM »

All the boost controller parts are stock which physically limits maximum boost to ~15psi per Ford's spec. The data logs indicate 16psi at the manifold though. Ford's ECU only allowed max boost above 4000rpm; I have mine set to allow it as soon as the turbo can make it and that is usually by 3000rpm. I'll raise it a bit when I have an intercooler.

I also found out before the momentous drive yesterday that the distributor came loose and retarded about 5°. Fixing that likely contributed to the wheel spin. I recall noticing that the car felt less gutsy before that.

Wittsend · « **Reply #140 on:** April 27, 2015, 12:58:38 AM »

Like I said above, "I love the Minilites." I remember your car on CL for some time, and only 8 miles away in Simi Valley I was often tempted to go look at it. Now seeing it with those wheels..., what was I thinking??? (about not seeing this car). But it is obviously in very capable hands so I can still vicariously live out its presence through your wallet and effort. LOL

My donor '88 T/C had the limited slip rear. Even with 225-60-16" tires (and added weight) I'll never forget driving in the rain the first time. 1st gear was just like normally pulling from a stop. But, the boost was just ahead of the clutch release for 2nd gear and the whole rear of the car went sideways about 2 feet. I wasn't trying to "power" anything. It was just how I normally drove (and rather conservative at that). On a dry road you couldn't tell me from grandma and her Oldsmobile. But, boost coming on - on a wet road is a bit like opening a door just as a strong gust of wind comes along and RIPS... the - knob - out - of - your- hand!

I don't have the high HP dreams some of you guys have. My favorite thing to do with the (stock) Turbo Pinto is to leisurely get it up to about 40 MPH in 3rd gear. Then slowly push down on the pedal as the car rapidly gathers speed and watch the passenger turn their head as their grinning face expresses a silent "WHOAAAA!"

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #141 on:** April 28, 2015, 02:57:54 PM »

Thanks. I thought I got a pretty clean car for the money especially after seeing where prices have gone just in the last year. Last Thursday marked one year that I've had the Pinto.

Yours has two things going for it; being a wagon (more traction) and having the IHI turbo (faster response). I've heard reports of people being able to get boost as low as 2200rpm in '87-88 Turbo Coupes.

Regarding the Minilites, they transformed the character of the car as well. The old tires were 185/70R13 on stock rims and they were prone to wallowing and wandering. The 'Lites have the same size shoes, but are a few inches wider. The steering now is crisp and very direct. They also transfer a lot more road harshness to the chassis, but that's livable until the suspension gets improved.

Srt · « **Reply #142 on:** April 28, 2015, 09:57:10 PM »

The increased responsiveness is due the tire being stretched over the wider rims stiffening the sidewall, reducing slip angle, increasing the size of the tread contact patch &, to put it simply; making the tire tread do the work

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #143 on:** May 02, 2015, 06:57:59 PM »

And they shake quite a bit above 63mph by my GPS. I'm not sure if it's a balance issue caused by missing weights or if the wheels aren't aligned on the hubs. I'm going to make some concentric alignment rings and find out.

Another new problem surfaced when I took it out yesterday; the mixture leaned-out one full point (1.0) in the lower load idle and cruise areas. I thought maybe the fuel filter was clogged already, but the pressure is where it should be for a stock regulator. I thought maybe the injector baskets were getting clogged, but the mixture dips rich (~11.5) under boost like it should, so I'm scratching my head for the moment.

A previous suspicion has also been confirmed: the stock 2.0 radiator is not going to cool that engine in the coming summer heat.

Here, have some deceptively flattering beauty shots with the new wheels:

I might keep the front end that height and lower the back to match. It looks good IMO.

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #144 on:** May 09, 2015, 09:00:41 PM »

A small step in the direction of progress:

Don't know if it will fit anywhere in my Pinto as-is, but at least it's about the right size.

don33 · « **Reply #145 on:** May 16, 2015, 07:50:42 PM »

Quote from: 65ShelbyClone on April 05, 2015, 12:36:21 PM

I got some for a 2.3 with A/C.

I believe that would be out of a 74 and up car, aren't there springs a couple inches longer than the 71 to 73 cars ? if so how do they fit ?

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #146 on:** May 16, 2015, 11:40:00 PM »

They were for a '76, but I don't know how the length compares; they're still in the box. I got a balljoint separator last week thinking I would need it for the spring change and found out that Ford changed springs by unbolting the lower control arm from the crossmember instead. Oh well, more tools for the collection.

Maybe I can use it for the Granada brake swap on my Mustang...

Several days ago I go some exhaust parts in, but have been so busy at work this week that I'm only now posting pics.

I made the executive decision to put 3" exhaust under the car. That tubing looks a lot bigger in person...

don33 · « **Reply #147 on:** May 17, 2015, 02:18:00 AM »

I'll be waiting to see if those springs work out. I think I will need some new and a bit stiffer too. and 3" exhaust tubing, well yeah, what else would you put under there ?

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #148 on:** June 21, 2015, 05:45:17 PM »

I haven't done anything to the '72 for a month, but I did just get home with a '77 parts car.

Now I have a spare 2.3 engine, a sway bar, '74+ front brakes, low-mount alternator brackets, more 2.3 frame brackets, oil pan, full window chrome that's mostly good, and a lot of other stuff. I figure the parts I want would set me back about what I paid for the car, so anything I can peddle is a bonus.

The interior is disgusting though. It was parked with the truck lid open and a window partly down, so lots of rodent access.

65ShelbyClone · « **Reply #149 on:** October 31, 2015, 05:06:21 PM »

Quote from: 65ShelbyClone on June 21, 2015, 05:45:17 PM

I haven't done anything to the '72 for a month

Make that five months.

The weather is finally getting conducive to working outside, but now the bugs are really bad.

I dragged out some exhaust parts and am attempting to scare up a shifter boot that I think is stored around here somewhere, but the big thing is that I'm trying to get my hands on a TIG welder now. I want get something done, but also want to put off welding jobs until I have better equipment. My head is swimming with all the potential projects I could do with a TIG....intake plumbing, intake manifold, spring perches, bike frames, subframe connectors, boxed control arms, turbo manifolds....

Pulled the alternator bracket off the '77 parts car and to my surprise, the cast lower bracket is iron....and heavy. Not real thrilled about that, but I guess it will do. The aluminum marine 2.3 bracket I have would require mods to the alternator case which is not a big deal, but it makes alternator replacement more problematic.

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Author Topic: A 1972 turbo swap adventure (Read 98721 times)