Mini Classifieds

Tire needed p185/80r13
Date: 12/31/2017 09:08 pm
convert to stick
Date: 05/19/2018 09:26 pm
looking for 1978 pinto head rebuild kit
Date: 05/24/2020 08:19 am
Ford 2.3 Bellhousing C4/C5 & Torque Converter

Date: 07/08/2022 11:51 pm
PINTO TRUNK LATCH & CATCH

Date: 03/23/2018 09:39 pm
71-73 Rear valance panel
Date: 01/14/2021 06:54 pm
1980 Ford AM radio
Date: 12/22/2019 11:57 am
71/72 Pinto front end bushing kit
Date: 02/05/2017 09:45 am
Need 2.3 timing cover
Date: 08/10/2018 11:41 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,573
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 1,185
  • Online ever: 1,681 (March 09, 2025, 10:00:10 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 648
  • Total: 648
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!

Started by mikerich1972, March 24, 2008, 07:47:13 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

turbopinto72

Quote from: mikerich1972 on April 01, 2008, 12:35:31 PM
What I'm referring to when I mentioned water vapor problems in the winter is this: Lower block temperatures (when parked) will condense more water into the oil than most any other time of year. This is particularly true if you make short trips, as in-town driving tends to be. With short trips, the water never has time to be vaporized and purged.

As far as "tampering with an emission control system".  Show me a federal, state, or any other regulation that this simple procedure violates! The EPA is concerned with ONE thing in a PCV system: that it purges the hot oil, blow-by, and combustion gases from the crankcase into the engine to be re-burned in the combustion process. I am not changing that in any way!!!!

Now, to address my feelings on the intake temperature reduction:  In the 2.3L Ford engine, we are looking at about 122 CFM at full throttle (stock, unmodified 2.3 liter engine, running at 5,000 RPM). Considering the amount of purge air pulled through the stock PCV (I would guess somewhere around <8 CFM), I believe the change in actual inlet air temperature is negligible. Certainly not enough to create a chilling affect required to increase the density of inlet air.

As for the concern of "sealing up" the crankcase:   This is simply NOt what I'm suggesting! The crankcase is still ventilated... it is just not ventilated as thoroughly as it was. We are now creating a negative pressure inside the block, instead of simply pulling air through the block.

I hope this clears up some of your questions and concerns!

Mike

Mike, just wanted to answer your questions reguarding " tampering with an emmision controll system. Read below.

3704.16 Prohibiting tampering with motor vehicle emission control systems.
(A) As used in sections 3704.16 to 3704.162 of the Revised Code:

(1) "Tamper with" means to remove permanently, bypass, defeat, or render inoperative, in whole or part, any emission control system that is installed on or in a motor vehicle.

(2) "Motor vehicle" has the same meaning as in section 4501.01 of the Revised Code.

(3) "Emission control system" means any system designated by the United States environmental protection agency as an emission control system under Title II of the "Clean Air Act Amendments." "Emission control system" includes any device or element of design of the system.

(4) "Clean Air Act Amendments" has the same meaning as in section 3704.14 of the Revised Code.

(5) Notwithstanding section 3704.01 of the Revised Code, "person" has the same meaning as in section 1.59 of the Revised Code.

(B) No person shall do any of the following:

(1) Sell, offer for sale, possess for sale, advertise, manufacture, install, or use any part or component intended for use with or as part of any motor vehicle when the primary effect is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative, in whole or part, the emission control system;

(2) Introduce a leaded fuel into a motor vehicle that is designed, manufactured, or certified by the United States environmental protection agency to use only unleaded fuels;

(3) Tamper with any emission control system installed on or in a motor vehicle prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser;

(4) Violate any rule or order the director of environmental protection adopts or issues under section 3704.161 of the Revised Code;

(5) Refuse to permit the director or his designee to inspect any motor vehicle or documents as provided in division (A) of section 3704.161 of the Revised Code.

The sale, offering for sale, possession for sale, advertisement, manufacture, installation, and use of a part or component in violation of division (B)(1) of this section all constitute separate offenses.

(C) No person shall knowingly do any of the following:

(1) Operate a motor vehicle that has been tampered with if the motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine has been certified by the United States environmental protection agency as meeting federal or California emission control standards;

(2) Sell, lease, rent, or offer to sell, lease, or rent, or transfer or offer to transfer title or a right to possession of a motor vehicle that has been tampered with;

(3) Tamper with any emission control system installed on or in a motor vehicle after sale, lease, or rental and delivery of the vehicle to the ultimate purchaser, lessee, or renter.

The sale, lease, rental, and offer to sell, lease, or rent, and other transfer or offer to transfer of title or a right to possession of a motor vehicle in violation of division (C)(2) of this section all constitute separate offenses.

(D) Division (C)(2) of this section does not apply to either of the following:

(1) Any person who sells, leases, rents, or offers to sell, lease, or rent, or transfers or offers to transfer title or a right to possession of a motor vehicle that has been tampered with if the person is acting as a motor vehicle auction owner, a special auctioneer, or a salvage motor vehicle auction and if the person holds a current and appropriate license to engage in those activities issued under Chapter 4517., 4707., or 4738. of the Revised Code;

(2) The sale, lease, rental, or offer to sell, lease, or rent, or transfer or offer to transfer title or right to possession of a motor vehicle that has been tampered with if the vehicle is titled with a salvage certificate of title issued under section 4505.11 of the Revised Code.

(E) Notwithstanding divisions (B)(1) and (3) and (C)(3) of this section, it is not a violation of those divisions if either of the following conditions is met:

(1) The action is taken for the purpose of repair or replacement of the emission control system or is a necessary and temporary procedure to repair or replace any other item on the motor vehicle and the action results in the system's compliance with the "Clean Air Act Amendments";

(2) The action is for the purpose of converting a motor vehicle to use a clean alternative fuel, as defined in Title II of the "Clean Air Act Amendments," the motor vehicle complies with the applicable standard adopted under Section 202 of that act when operating on the fuel, an emission control system is installed or replaced upon completion of the conversion, and the action results in the system's compliance with that act when the motor vehicle operates on the fuel for which it originally was designed.

Effective Date: 09-27-1993
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

77turbopinto

Quote from: lencost on April 01, 2008, 02:01:23 PM
This is an idea that a member decided to share in this forum. The cost of trying this is zero if you jest temporarily clamp off the inlet side of the PVC system. Wen I get my Pinto back on the road I plan on trying this, and then I will post my experience.

Where did I say he should not have posted this? 

Where did I post that people should not try it? (as long as they are aware that there are risks)


I am all for trying new (or old) ideas, but It just seems like he is trying harder to prove that others are wrong than anything else.

BTW: Would it still be "Zero Cost" if you had to repair something?



Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

lencost

Quote from: 77turbopinto on April 01, 2008, 12:58:55 PM
So let me see if I have this correct.....

You post your idea with it's potential benefits (and a few known drawbacks) but provide no scientific documention, certified tests or studies showing why it has the effects that you claim, THEN if someone else posts concerns or opinions you require them to provide documentation, and it they don't, they are wrong.

OK, got it.

Bill

This is an idea that a member decided to share in this forum. The cost of trying this is zero if you jest temporarily clamp off the inlet side of the PCV system. Wen I get my Pinto back on the road I plan on trying this, and then I will post my experience.
1975 Wagon 8" C4 2.8 V6

77turbopinto

Quote from: mikerich1972 on April 01, 2008, 12:35:31 PM
What I'm referring to when I mentioned water vapor problems in the winter is this: Lower block temperatures (when parked) will condense more water into the oil than most any other time of year. This is particularly true if you make short trips, as in-town driving tends to be. With short trips, the water never has time to be vaporized and purged.

As far as "tampering with an emission control system".  Show me a federal, state, or any other regulation that this simple procedure violates! The EPA is concerned with ONE thing in a PCV system: that it purges the hot oil, blow-by, and combustion gases from the crankcase into the engine to be re-burned in the combustion process. I am not changing that in any way!!!!

Now, to address my feelings on the intake temperature reduction:  In the 2.3L Ford engine, we are looking at about 122 CFM at full throttle (stock, unmodified 2.3 liter engine, running at 5,000 RPM). Considering the amount of purge air pulled through the stock PCV (I would guess somewhere around <8 CFM), I believe the change in actual inlet air temperature is negligible. Certainly not enough to create a chilling affect required to increase the density of inlet air.

As for the concern of "sealing up" the crankcase:   This is simply NOt what I'm suggesting! The crankcase is still ventilated... it is just not ventilated as thoroughly as it was. We are now creating a negative pressure inside the block, instead of simply pulling air through the block.

I hope this clears up some of your questions and concerns!

Mike

So let me see if I have this correct.....

You post your idea with it's potential benefits (and a few known drawbacks) but provide no scientific documention, certified tests or studies showing why it has the effects that you claim, THEN if someone else posts concerns or opinions you require THEM to provide documentation, and if they don't, they are wrong.

OK, got it.



BTW: In round numbers:

114 CFM @ 80* + 8 CFM @ 200* = 122 CFM @ 87.9*


Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

mikerich1972

What I'm referring to when I mentioned water vapor problems in the winter is this: Lower block temperatures (when parked) will condense more water into the oil than most any other time of year. This is particularly true if you make short trips, as in-town driving tends to be. With short trips, the water never has time to be vaporized and purged.

As far as "tampering with an emission control system".  Show me a federal, state, or any other regulation that this simple procedure violates! The EPA is concerned with ONE thing in a PCV system: that it purges the hot oil, blow-by, and combustion gases from the crankcase into the engine to be re-burned in the combustion process. I am not changing that in any way!!!!

Now, to address my feelings on the intake temperature reduction:  In the 2.3L Ford engine, we are looking at about 122 CFM at full throttle (stock, unmodified 2.3 liter engine, running at 5,000 RPM). Considering the amount of purge air pulled through the stock PCV (I would guess somewhere around <8 CFM), I believe the change in actual inlet air temperature is negligible. Certainly not enough to create a chilling affect required to increase the density of inlet air.

As for the concern of "sealing up" the crankcase:   This is simply NOt what I'm suggesting! The crankcase is still ventilated... it is just not ventilated as thoroughly as it was. We are now creating a negative pressure inside the block, instead of simply pulling air through the block.

I hope this clears up some of your questions and concerns!

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

Srt

Quote from: Farmboy on April 01, 2008, 09:16:30 AM
  77Turbopinto, you never spent a winter in western Wa, its very wet here ;D

i think he's talking about relative humidity. in winter the air is dryer
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Farmboy

  77Turbopinto, you never spent a winter in western Wa, its very wet here ;D
  I do what the voices in my Pinto tell me to do




74 Pinto Wagon
71 Runabout (parts car)

77turbopinto

Quote from: mikerich1972 on April 01, 2008, 12:05:47 AM
......In fact, the oil stays "drier" in the winter (without pulling in all the water vapor from outside)......

.......The important thing to remember here is that the gases are still being drawn into the intake manifold, NOT vented into the atmosphere as unburned hydrocarbons. Therefore, the EPA would not have a problem with our doing this........

A) Aren't winters 'dryer' than other seasons because cold air can't hold the mosture that warm air can?

B) It is still tampering with an emission control......

I still think that the biggest benifet is colder air intake temp.s.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

mikerich1972

Okay, I'm back to answer some of these concerns!

At idle, my 308k mile 2.3L runs at about -22" HG (mercury). In a perfect world, I would be able to pull a -20" vacuum on the crank at idle. In the real world, with leaks, blow-by, etc, it actually runs at -4 to -5". So, yes the blow-by IS a factor in this. But it is negligible.

In my mind before I applied this to my car, this vacuum would make such a small difference in the internal rotational drag that it would be immeasurable. This is simply NOT the case. It is real, measurable, and does not do any harm to the engine.

In fact, the oil stays "drier" in the winter (without pulling in all the water vapor from outside). The oil, however, become more contaminated with combustion by-products faster... meaning change your oil at regular intervals!

The crankcase blow-by is still being removed from the engine block; just not as quickly. It is more like a teapot with a small opening in the lid on a hot stove, instead of an open pan with a fan blowing across it (figuratively speaking). The byproducts are still being removed from the enclosed space, just not as quickly as with more purge air. The important thing to remember here is that the gases are still being drawn into the intake manifold, NOT vented into the atmosphere as unburned hydrocarbons. Therefore, the EPA would not have a problem with our doing this.

In fact (and I have no data to prove this!) I would be willing to state that an engine with this in place would easily pass emissions testing. We simply have not created a path for this nasty stuff to purge un-burned into the atmosphere, we have just reduced the air flow; not altered its path!

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

turbopinto72

OK, well, for obvious reasons this would not be a good idea to be used on a forced induction car.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

Pintony

Quote from: turbopinto72 on March 31, 2008, 11:40:16 PM
Ok, I re read his post in the other thread. If he is saying " use an external pump to evacuate the crank case " I understand that. There are a lot of racers that use a pump to " zoop" the crank case dry ( so to speak ). There is another way to do it by using the exhaust system to " pull " the vapors out of the crank case.

YES except Mike's idea is using a tube to the intake manifold to evacuate.
At least that is how I understand it.??

turbopinto72

Ok, I re read his post in the other thread. If he is saying " use an external pump to evacuate the crank case " I understand that. There are a lot of racers that use a pump to " zoop" the crank case dry ( so to speak ). There is another way to do it by using the exhaust system to " pull " the vapors out of the crank case.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

Pintony

Quote from: turbopinto72 on March 31, 2008, 11:31:15 PM
Ummm, huh ??.
You still need to evacuate the crankcase. I hear Mike saying he wants to " seal it" is that not the case?

evacuate? Isnt that what a vacuum is? vacant space??
Again I'm not saying that it is good or possible or bad, iduno????
I'm confused myself???
From Pintony

turbopinto72

Ummm, huh ??.
You still need to evacuate the crankcase. I hear Mike saying he wants to " seal it" is that not the case?
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

Pintony

Quote from: turbopinto72 on March 31, 2008, 08:55:02 PM
I'm sorry but I am having a hard time with this. The crank case needs to breath or there will be so much crank case pressure built up it will blow out the dip stick. By sealing it off you will not have an effective " air pump" I can see tons of HP loss with this not to mention damage to parts. ??????

I'm not going to pretend that I understand this but...
Mike is trying to say that the crank case is sealed EXCEPT for the vacuum applied to it by the intake manifold. If an absolute vacuum is applied then there is no pressure.
If you put a wind-up airplane in a vacuum tube and then let it go the propeller would spin really fast as there is no air to slow it down but no air to pull the plane forward either. So having a partial vacuum applied would produce HP.
as there are 2 pistons moving down and 2 pistons moving up at the same time in a 2.0 or 2.3 engine. and the Vacuum is NOT "absolute" if the c.c. needed a little air back for some reason it could take it as there is NO checkvalve to stop air going in either direction.
From Pintony

turbopinto72

Right. And the PVC valve/ crankcase vent system also keeps the certain % of blow-by i.e. gas from collecting in the oil system and contaminating it
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

Wittsend

 Well, in an ideal world there would be no ring blow by. So, the crack pressure ideally shouldn't change. But within the crank case you have pistons offsetting the air, I would think in a push/pull fashion. The spinning crank would create "wind like" a fan. But even that possibly is simply replacing like air in occupied space. So, I would guess it is the difference in temperature (crank case to atmosphere) that causes the most air movement related to the venting the crank case.

In years of old cars simply had a breather tube venting to the air I don't recall major pressure issues with good rings and valves.  The PCV was just a way of burning hydrocarbons given off by heated oil. It created a vacuum and force the vapors into the intake.
Tom

turbopinto72

If you think about it, every 4th rotation of a given piston there is a " vent" via the exhaust valve opening. But, in a closed crank case there is no " vent" so , where does the compressed air go to ?
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

Wittsend

 The thing I'm wondering about is if a piston is moving up and another down, doesn't this offset each other in regards to occupied air space?

  So, when a vacuum is created (as with this modification) and a piston needs to occupy space (moving upward), doesn't that vacuum impede the upward movement of the piston in the same way atmospheric pressure impeded downward piston movement without the modification?

I'm not up on Physics, but maybe things move easier in a vacuum and the same trade-off of piston up/down movement mentioned above becomes more efficient?

I have seen drag cars apply this negative pressure principle, but they siphon a vacuum off headers. I guess at full throttle the header siphon creates more vacuum than dual four barrels do on the intake side.
Tom

turbopinto72

Quote from: mikerich1972 on March 30, 2008, 07:47:51 PM
Well, just cap, or change out, the oil fill cap. What you want to do is create a vacuum-tight crankcase. Be careful to watch your oil seals, though!

Mike

Im sorry but I am having a hard time with this. The crank case needs to breath or there will be so much crank case pressure built up it will blow out the dip stick. By sealing it off you will not have an effective " air pump" I can see tons of HP loss with this not to mention damage to parts. ??????
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

mikerich1972

For a lot of you folks who are wondering why I would be willing to share this idea on a small website forum, I'll be happy to answer that.

I presented this idea to many car-guy friends, most of whom looked at me like I was crazy! I also contacted the local city maintenance department about trying this on some of their vehicles. I got the same reaction!! What's the problem here? Unbelief...  Most of us believe that if something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

This idea is NOT new! Drag racers have been doing this for years to sneak out a few more HP's.This is also why I can't patent and market the idea. But, what I CAN do is get the word out! All I'm asking is that you try it. If you don't like the outcome, or if it flat doesn't increase your gas mileage, then reverse the mods and we'll all move on. Nothing really lost!

However, if it DOES work for you: pass on the information!!  (It's here on the site for free) All I'm asking is that you let me know how it's working for you. What increases have you seen?

I worked as a Mechanical Engineer at a nuclear fuels production plant for 14 years, responsible for the HVAC, Containment, and Air Sampling systems, among other equipment. I spent about 26 years working with all types of HVAC systems. Because of this experience I too, was very skeptical of the seemingly minuscule gains available with such a simple modification. That's why I had to prove it to myself before I could put this out to the public!

I'm not in it for profit. I just want to beat the imported oil thing as much as I can, any way I can.

Thanks for listening!

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

mikerich1972

Quote from: dave1987 on March 30, 2008, 04:22:14 PM
Back on topic to the original post...

Are we talking about capping off the crankcase vent valve and the oil filling cap, thus making the engine a closed "circuit" with no external ventilation?

Well, just cap, or change out, the oil fill cap. What you want to do is create a vacuum-tight crankcase. Be careful to watch your oil seals, though!

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

77turbopinto

Quote from: mikerich1972 on March 30, 2008, 07:28:47 PM
Sorry bill, no direspect intended....

None taken.

It's so hard to "read" emotions or intent in forums like this.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

mikerich1972

Quote from: 77turbopinto on March 29, 2008, 11:42:03 PM
This is an interesting topic. The possible adverse effects should be considered by anyone thinking of doing this. Thank you for posting some of the issues you did have, and some of your concerns too.

I wonder what the gains would be if the crankcase were vented outside of the vacuum like I mentioned before (all else equal).

The PCV system is considered to be an emission control and the EPA might not be that happy, at least not for street use.

I can tell you that the EFI 2.3T has a "Metered Air" system that is designed to work with a PCV and 'vented' crankcase. The vent is after the VAM so all the air in the engine is metered, so IF this were to be done it would not have an effect on the METERING of the air (mixture). One more thing to think about with this set-up: the location of the "vent", its between the VAM and the turbo; in a vacuum area. Other possible effects, good or bad, are still a '?'.

I would think that it would change the mixture for a carb.ed engine (fixed mixture). Yes, some, if not all Pintos have the vented oil cap have a tube to the air can, but it is located before the air fliter (restriction).

Cars with "Speed Density" or "MAP" sensors might not deal well with the change (I don't know).


Bill

Great points!! 

I have modified a 2006 Chrysler minivan, and a 2005 Ford F-150. Both operated just fine with this done. The only complaint from the owner was about the "whistle". This was only noticable upon shutdown, but they wanted them both reversed anyway. These, and the vehicles mentioned in the article are the only experience I have with fully "comptuered" cars.

By the way, both of these vehicles saw a solid 1.5 miles per gallon increase for the short time I had the mods on them.

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

mikerich1972

Quote from: 77turbopinto on March 27, 2008, 07:37:56 PM
I fully understand the word "vacuum".

The PCV system does put a vacuum to the crankcase, but with the crankcase that is vented, outside air is pulled into the crankcase: 'a vacuum leak'. If it were not putting a vacuum to the crankcase, air would not be pulled in through the vent.

By sealing the vent ('leak') you will limit the amount of hot gas that will be pulled out of the crankcase and into the engine, and in turn your intake air temp will go down. That will go along with any benefit that a negative pressure in the crankcase might give you.

A N/A (regular) car will draw more vacuum at idle or 'decel' than with an open throttle (like highway driving).

Of course ANY modification to the intake air might have other effects too, and those must be considered before-hand (tune, choke, federal laws...).

BTW: What I don't understand is why you don't want to just post all of your information here, or post a link, and make it "public."

Bill

Sorry bill, no direspect intended. I never know what level of knowledge is out there. You obviously DO understand what's going on!!

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

dave1987

Back on topic to the original post...

Are we talking about capping off the crankcase vent valve and the oil filling cap, thus making the engine a closed "circuit" with no external ventilation?
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

Srt

Quote from: earthquake on March 30, 2008, 09:41:16 AM
3 letters (EPA) :(


you maybe partially corect but i think that if 'big business' could do something so simple & inexpensive & effective why wouldn't they do it?  in my opinion, because it has been researched and set aside as not being feasible.

there have been throught the years, no lack of 'devices' along the same lines as this idea. an xample is the '300' or '100' MPG carburetor. 

the epa & the auto manufacturers are not ignorant of ideas & 'out of the box' thinking when it comes to designing vehicles & the power plants that allow them to move.  yes, they do have a vested interest in selling cars/trucks and the parts to service them.  so does 'big oil' have a vested interest in perpetuating the aut industry as a huge consumer of oil. but in the political climate that is prevalent in this day & age a simple procedure or device such as this would have been implemented already.


100+mpg+carburetor
cut & paste this into google:

there are listed page after page of 'ideas' that will change the future of the automotive world for the better.

all that being said;  i have never tried any of this and i'm not saying that any of these ideas don't or do work. i am saying that with the united states full of the best engineers & researcher as well as a few govt. aencies devoted to the science and application of such ideas, i would think that an idea such as this would be a bit more 'mainstream' than showing up on a forum in an enthusiasts web site
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

earthquake

Quote from: srt on March 30, 2008, 02:55:21 AM
Might I ask why, if this is so cost & fuel efficient; not to mention (your implication, not mine) that it is common sense;  do not all auto manufacturers utilize it?
3 letters (EPA) :(
73 sedan parts car,80 crusin wagon conversion,76 F 250 460 SCJ,74 Ranchero 4x4,88 mustang lx convertable,and the readheaded step child 86 uhhh Chevy 4x4(Sorry guys it was cheap)

Srt

Might I ask why, if this is so cost & fuel efficient; not to mention (your implication, not mine) that it is common sense;  do not all auto manufacturers utilize it?
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

77turbopinto

This is an interesting topic. The possible adverse effects should be considered by anyone thinking of doing this. Thank you for posting some of the issues you did have, and some of your concerns too.

I wonder what the gains would be if the crankcase were vented outside of the vacuum like I mentioned before (all else equal).

Quote from: mikerich1972 on March 29, 2008, 06:02:46 PM
......The nasty vapors are still drawn off and burned in the engine, so the emissions have not increased, and the EPA will be happy......


The PCV system is considered to be an emission control and the EPA might not be that happy, at least not for street use.

Quote from: mikerich1972 on March 29, 2008, 06:02:46 PM
........I want to point out that the on-board computer in newer vehicles doesn't care about this modification! (The computer does not control or monitor the PCV in any way.).......

I can tell you that the EFI 2.3T has a "Metered Air" system that is designed to work with a PCV and 'vented' crankcase. The vent is after the VAM so all the air in the engine is metered, so IF this were to be done it would not have an effect on the METERING of the air (mixture). One more thing to think about with this set-up: the location of the "vent", its between the VAM and the turbo; in a vacuum area. Other possible effects, good or bad, are still a '?'.

I would think that it would change the mixture for a carb.ed engine (fixed mixture). Yes, some, if not all Pintos have the vented oil cap have a tube to the air can, but it is located before the air fliter (restriction).

Cars with "Speed Density" or "MAP" sensors might not deal well with the change (I don't know).


Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.