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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

1976 Wagon with 308.000 miles!

Started by mikerich1972, March 24, 2008, 07:47:13 PM

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mikerich1972

Thought I would post photos of the old, high-mileage Pinto.
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

mikerich1972

The old Pinto wagon is still running strong at 319,815 miles as of today! We plan on taking it about 150 miles north, to Spokane this next weekend. No problem.  ;D

I have only experienced a problem wiht keeping good spark plugs in it. I have been running Bosch platinums for about a year now, but even those seem to fail. Before that, I went through several sets of Autolite platinums, and numorous sets of regular plugs.

They don't really fail catastrophically, they simply misfire! Talk about a nightmare to find which plug.....

However, I have come up with an easy way to find a bad plug, or plug wire. I have an infrered thermometer, so I now use that to find the mis-firing plug really fast! I set the carb to fast idle and wiat a few minutes, Then I can easily see the lower exhaust temperature on the affected cylinder!! 

I have always liked EASY!
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

popbumper

Awesome, Mike. I think it's great that you are getting so much mileage out of it - this is really testament to how durable and well-built the cars were (and are)!

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

mikerich1972

 Well, we took the old Pinto into Idaho and Montana last week. No problem. It now has just over 318,100 miles! And all of this is on wht I believe to be an original engine. All I've done is swapped the head, due to a major valve problem.

The oil pressure is dropped a bit in the last year, but still runs at a respectable 50 PSI highway, 25 idle.
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

dga57

Sounds like a winner to me!!! :surprised:

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

mikerich1972

 Well, the old Pinto still runs great at 316,460 miles!

I will drive it into Montana and Idaho next month.
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

mikerich1972

LATEST UPDATE:   The old Pinto wagon now has 314,550 miles on the odometer!

I recently ran a compression check on this old engine, thinking it surely has some terrible blow-by, etc. The old engine tested out at: 162, 155, 158, and 150 PSI (cylinders 1 through 4). It still runs maybe as good as new, and is getting over 30 MPG. Totally amazing!!

I'll continue to keep you good folks posted on my progress wiht keeping this classic on the road and out of the wrecking yard....
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

mikerich1972

 Well, the old Pinto still hasn't died!! I am now rolling onto 312,700 miles!

The oil pressure in these old 2.3's simply amazes me. It still holds at 55 PSI highway, and about 30 PSI at idle. I DO have a spare built, so I'm running it as long as it's reliable.

All I've really done to the car is general maintenance. I had the rear and rebuilt; new bearings and seals, about 6 years ago. I rebuilt and replaced a bad head, but I believe the engine is completely original other than that!! I replaced the stock oil in the tranny and rear with synthetic oil (this is a four-speed stick!) to reduce the cold weather problems associated with that (Translated: better fuel economy in the winter). 
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

discolives78

Congratulations on passing 300,000 miles. I am currently driving my 7th Pinto. It is the lowest mileage car I have ever owned, with 84,400 showing. I'm the third owner. It was bought new in '78 by a family friends father, when he died in '86 it had 23,000 miles, his daughter inhereted it and drove it till '97 when the water pump went out and it overheated. She took it to a mechanic and they told her it had a blown head gasket or a cracked head. She didn't want to spend much on it so she parked it in her back yard. I tried to get the car from her in '98 while I was still driving my 200,000 mile '75 hatchback, but she didn't want to part with it for sentimental reasons. She finally gave it to me in '03, I changed the timing belt, oil, spark plugs, water pump and rebuilt the carburetor and it has been trouble free for 5 years. I only average about 25 mpg with the 2.3 and 4 speed though.
Chuck




A virtual version of my last Pinto. Was Registered Ride #111. Missed every day.

mikerich1972

 Just an FYI...

The old Pinto now has 311,149 miles on the odometer. We are taking it to Idaho and Montana this next week for a great time in a lake-front cabin!

It still runs great, adn doesn't worry me one bit to take it across the Continental divide!!!
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

mikerich1972

Well, the old wagon now has 310,895 miles, still gets 32 MPG highway, 25-26 MPG in town!!

Who can complain about the little Ford that wasn't supposed to survive more than a few years?

I don't remeber for sure if I answered the question about the odometer possibly reading out kilometers. Anyway, here it is: NO, it is absolutely an American car, reading in miles. I have changed the wheels and tires to 14 inch to reduce the engine RPM on the freeway. (This car was only geared to run at 55 MPH). This has helped my highway mileage somewhat, as it allowed me to run at highway speeds with the throttle butterfly more closed. The side-affect is that the secondary butterfly is NOT opening 'till I want it to!!
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

Smeed

Its between the Germany and France, you can get to it by crossing the English channel! Any idiot knows that!  :lol:

'73 runabout

Starsky and Hutch

Quote from: Pintony on March 24, 2008, 08:34:13 PM
:welcome: mikerich1972,
Does your Pinto happen to be one made in Canada that the odometer rolls on Kilometers instead of miles?
Just a question... Not trying to be a wise guy...
30-32 would be phenomenal mpg for a 2.3.
Most Pinto owners do not even know there is a difference between the two odometers.
From Pintony
Most of you dont know where canada is
1977 Pinto Accent stripe group Runabout                                                                    interior(Code PN) Color (Code R2)

mikerich1972

 Thanks, Cookieboy. We still don't hesitate to take a road trip in it when needed. Of course, it does help that we have a fair mechanic in the car at all times! We also have a spare rebuilt engine in the garage, just waiting for when the (original???) engine bites the dust.
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

Cookieboystoys

Congrats Mike!  :happy_bday: to the car w/310,000 miles
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

mikerich1972

Yahoo!!  The old Pinto will turn over to 310,000 miles tomorrow morning!!

Okay, everybody get out your party hats and celebrate with me...
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

mikerich1972

You're certainly correct about the WOT and low vacuum.

I gave my original air pump from the air injection system for the catalytic converter to a friend as an experiment. He wanted to try reversing it's rotation and see if it would pull a vacuum on the crankcase. I never did hear anything back from him on the subject, so I assume it didn't work as he hoped.

The vacuum pump is definately an option for you, although the cost of the pump can be prohibitive! They are in the $700 range. One is available from Moroso for $799 (part# BPI-EVAC-MOR). With this pump, a net gain of 14.5 HP was documented on a Pontiac 400 CI at -9.5" mercury. That translates to about a 4% increase in net HP for this engine. Not much for the money, in my opinion...

Back to the high-mileage wagon... Yes, the paint is absolutely original!!!!

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

earthquake

I don't think you truly understand how this works.This is an old racers trick but in drag racing it is useless.This system only works in the low to midrange rpms,at WOT there is no vacum.For drag racing a system called an EVAC system working off the exhaust would be used.On the street the EVAC is useless as it requires high rpm to make it work.At present I am trying to find a way to combine the 2 systems but that is allot more complicated than it would seem.Hey Mike,any ideas there.
   Doc.

Just a note here on my progress.   At this time we are averaging 25 and the car was only rated at 23 new.Calculated HP is around128 up from I think 88.Not earth shaking HP # but not Bad for an internally stock motor.
73 sedan parts car,80 crusin wagon conversion,76 F 250 460 SCJ,74 Ranchero 4x4,88 mustang lx convertable,and the readheaded step child 86 uhhh Chevy 4x4(Sorry guys it was cheap)

dholvrsn

'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

Cookieboystoys

Quote from: mikerich1972 on May 11, 2008, 06:53:16 PM
The old Pinto now has 308,901 mlles, as of today!!

Lookin' good for all them miles  ;D
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

mikerich1972

The old Pinto now has 308,901 mlles, as of today!!

I still drive it daily, and will soon be taking it to north Idaho and Montana for a week's vacation.

I hope you all enjoy the pictures. I know it's one of Ford's best paint colors (it sure isn't MY favorite!!), but it is too reliable to just get rid of this classic. We can certainly put up with the color, if it will continue to run like it has for the last twenty years.

We bought this wagon in May of 1988, after our other one was totaled...with me in it!! You just can't ask for a better car.

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

mikerich1972

  Okay, I promise to post some pictures of the 308,670 miles Pinto Wagon here.... soon!

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

mikerich1972

Um, let's get back to the original subject...  ???

The old Pinto wagon's stats:   

308,540 miles as of today. It still has the original paint, the really cool Ford version of green/yellow (what I call "sinus infection yellow". All the moms and dads out there know what color I mean...). As far as I can tell at this point, the engine is original, as in never been rebuilt. I have, however, replaced the head due to really bad valves and a small crack. That was in December 1997 at 206,346 miles. At that time, the cylinders had so little wear, they looked almost new! This is the most I've had to do to the engine, other than minor maintenance. New radiator, interior carpet, door weatherstripping, several mufflers (remember the old Midas commercials?), several starters, two clutches, and several alternators. Since my retirement in June 2003, I've built a spare 2.3 in my shop. The biggest challenge in doing that was getting my hands on a usable head. It seems like all of the 2.3's around here were used up in racing; circle track, which they were winning!

I've installed a set of guages to monitor the engine's vitals, and will continue to run the old engine as long as it will start. In fact, I'm amazed every time it does start!!   :hypno:

I have done a lot of other small things to improve the drivability or reliability. I'm using synthetic gear lube in the transmission (manual) and rear differential. I had the rear diff rebuilt about 7 years ago due to some slight wear of the pinion shaft bearings. I also replaced the stock radiator fan with an electric version (thus putting more HP to the ground  ;D  ).  I replaced the 13" stock rally wheels with 14" aluminum wheels from a 1984 Thunderbird, for a 4.5% RPM reduction (and, yes, odometer offset). The carburetor was running so close to opening the secondary butterfly, that any incline would open it at the 70 MPH speeds (which the car was never meant to run! 55 MPH limits in 1976). With the reduced RPM, the highway mileage is now more where it should be, about 32. We have gotten up to 37.59 MPG, but that's using some other experiments I'm playing with.

The engine oil pressure still runs at 32 PSI idle, 60 PSI highway. Of course, these 2.3's were always pretty good for that! Most non-Ford people are amazed at the oil pressure, but I think they're just jealous!

I will post some pictures of the beast when I have a chance to scrape off months of road grime.

Mike Richardson
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

77turbopinto

Quote from: mikerich1972 on April 01, 2008, 05:41:01 PM
Thank you for at least listening to this idea.

ALL I have ever said is this:  Try it, if you want to. Don't try it if you don't!

I will reitierate one more thing; I have been doing this for over two years on a now 32 year old Pinto engine. It still runs great, with NO adverse affects.

If you would like me to swear to this in court, well, that's a bit difficult to do here! I'm trying to say this as clearly as I can; IT WORKS! I was also VERY skepticle of this thing, but was willing to try it out before I trashed it.

Do whatever you want, I'm not pressuring anyone into this. (Now you can see why this idea isn't popular with many people.)

Mike

I never said YOU had any adverse affects with YOUR pinto.

I never said you did not have the results that you claimed.

I never said it would not work.

I never trashed it.

I never said that you pressured anyone to do it.

(I did not see where anyone else said these things either)



WHY do you imply that someone said these things?



Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

turbopinto72

Thanks for your ideas Mike. We do appreciate new ideas and, that said, the opportunity to debate the merits of said idea. Unfortunately I can not even try this Idea due to both my cars being turbocharged. I also tend to think in the forced induction realm of things so sometimes it takes me a few times reading through things to "re-compute" my brain  ;). I would however tend to think that at least out here in California with the EPA being as tough as they are, one might want to put the complete system back to original before they go get a smog check. They tend to crack down hard on that kind of stuff. This is why my cars are all pre smog cars. If the State ever passes legislation to include all cars in smog tests I will just convert to Alky or propane and give that a shot.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

mikerich1972

Thank you for at least listening to this idea.

ALL I have ever said is this:  Try it, if you want to. Don't try it if you don't!

I will reitierate one more thing; I have been doing this for over two years on a now 32 year old Pinto engine. It still runs great, with NO adverse affects.

If you would like me to swear to this in court, well, that's a bit difficult to do here! I'm trying to say this as clearly as I can; IT WORKS! I was also VERY skepticle of this thing, but was willing to try it out before I trashed it.

Do whatever you want, I'm not pressuring anyone into this. (Now you can see why this idea isn't popular with many people.)

Mike
1976 Pinto Wagon 2.3L
1972 Harley Davidson FLH 1200
1972 Pontiac Firebird 350/350
2003 Ford Motorhome
2018 Ford Focus

Cookieboystoys

Quote from: 77turbopinto on April 01, 2008, 04:28:19 PM

You asked if you missed something about him asking others for documentation; did you see this:

Quote from: mikerich1972 on Today at 12:35:31 PM
As far as "tampering with an emission control system".  Show me a federal, state, or any other regulation that this simple procedure violates!

(I think that one got answered)

I still would like to know WHY this has the result it has for the people that do it.

Bill


Hey Bill, I saw that but still didn't think your response was appropiate based on that one statement or that it applied. guess It just depends on what a person reads into both his statement and yours.

as far as the answer.... well... it's just a cut and paste of the law but there really isn't an answer to explain "in simple terms" so people like "ME!" can understand... kindof... I understand tampering with the emission control system in any way is not allowed so you have me there but... with what I understand as nothing more complicated then sealing the oil filler cap how you might get caught. Also with the way Mike explained it your really not disabling the purpose of the PVC system... just not allowing it to work as designed and dumping the bad stuff in the engine and not allowing it to escape. Anyhow... I don't know enough to argue any of these points so will not even try and should shut up on this one.

I too have my doubts and fears about doing something like this. I have said it before and will say it again, I'm not a mechanic and don't understand squat about how an engine works... OK, I get the basics but couldn't even consider tearing one down and rebuilding it  ;D

I was just happy to sit back and read what others think/say and stay out of this all together other than just keep reading and making up my own mind but... Mike is new and I didn't want him to get the wrong idea about the group. I think this discussion should keep going is all... It's a difficult one at best and there is bound to be people on both sides of the fence I just didn't want to see tempers get out of hand...

It is after all an idea... I don't "think" Mike is insisting that people try it but leaving it up to each to do or not do as they see fit.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

77turbopinto

Quote from: Cookieboy on April 01, 2008, 02:45:17 PM
I don't know Bill... I went back and reread all 16 posts from Mike - Twice - and didn't see anywhere where "I think" he even "suggested" let alone stated that he requires documentation if someone doesn't agree with him. I also did not see anywhere that he stated someone was wrong other than to clairify a statement he made or clear up a question asked.

am I missing something?

I know I shouldn't post this as I will only make you angry Bill by disagreeing with with you (remember the floor pans) but I think this is a great discussion and at least worth the time to discuss. Let's not discourage a new member (Mike) by dissing on his idea, demanding proof and suggesting he's wrong. He has stated that he has done this himself, exlained his results under different circumstances and pointed out the potential pitfalls. He's been more than willing to discuss any questions and concerns and clairify if someone has a question. He has also stated and has said... Okay, so simply don't do it! Nothing ventured, nothing gained...


I admit that my views on the floor pans were not all that popular, but I was never angry about it, nor am I angry here. "Writing emotion" in posts is not easy; I guess I am not good at it. I express my opinion, maybe too much; however I do so with the intent to help others. I posted my beliefs in this thread to let others know that just because the person that started this thread does this, that not everyone should do it. Yes, he did post potential pitfalls, but maybe not all of them; there may be many others not discussed here. BTW: The old rope rear-main seal is an unforgiving little item; would it still be a "zero cost" modification if you needed to fix it? What would happen if the vacuum in the engine pulled the oil pan gasket apart and it got pulled into the oil-pick up screen? Please remember that these cars are old, and might not take modifications well. The last thing I want to read/hear is where someone had major problems with doing this modification, and they would have not done it had they known.

You asked if you missed something about him asking others for documentation; did you see this:

Quote from: mikerich1972 on April 01, 2008, 12:35:31 PM
As far as "tampering with an emission control system".  Show me a federal, state, or any other regulation that this simple procedure violates!

(I think that one got answered)

Where did I "Diss" his idea?

Where did I "demand proof" from him?


I still would like to know WHY this has the possitive results for the people that do it.


Bill




Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

Cookieboystoys

Quote from: mikerich1972 on April 01, 2008, 12:05:47 AM

In fact, the oil stays "drier" in the winter (without pulling in all the water vapor from outside). The oil, however, become more contaminated with combustion by-products faster... meaning change your oil at regular intervals!

This makes perfect sense to me... up here where the temps in the winter time drop to below zero a lot during the winter. Imagine this.... start a very frozen engine (-0 and below) and watch it as it warms up... you can see the condensation start to build up. It will start to show as ice/frost first all over the engine and once the engine warms up and burns it off. Every spring in this part of the country you learn.... oil changes in the winter/spring are suggested/mandatory as you will end up with more water than you might guess in your oil especially if you just make short trips a lot. It's also the reason we use isopropyl in the gas to get rid of the water.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

Cookieboystoys

Quote from: 77turbopinto on April 01, 2008, 12:58:55 PM
So let me see if I have this correct.....

You post your idea with it's potential benefits (and a few known drawbacks) but provide no scientific documention, certified tests or studies showing why it has the effects that you claim, THEN if someone else posts concerns or opinions you require THEM to provide documentation, and if they don't, they are wrong.

OK, got it.

Bill

I don't know Bill... I went back and reread all 16 posts from Mike - Twice - and didn't see anywhere where "I think" he even "suggested" let alone stated that he requires documentation if someone doesn't agree with him. I also did not see anywhere that he stated someone was wrong other than to clairify a statement he made or clear up a question asked.

am I missing something?

I know I shouldn't post this as I will only make you angry Bill by disagreeing with with you (remember the floor pans) but I think this is a great discussion and at least worth the time to discuss. Let's not discourage a new member (Mike) by dissing on his idea, demanding proof and suggesting he's wrong. He has stated that he has done this himself, exlained his results under different circumstances and pointed out the potential pitfalls. He's been more than willing to discuss any questions and concerns and clairify if someone has a question. He has also stated and has said... Okay, so simply don't do it! Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

It's all about the Pintos! Baby!