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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

The Electric Pinto

Started by electrabishi, October 14, 2006, 02:03:46 AM

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electrabishi

Here's Mine and Hanks best time slips from last Monday:

                     Mike         Hank
Reaction      .4979       .3258
60 ft             1.7141     1.7782
330 ft           5.0070      5.0502
ET@ 594 ft   7.3520     7.3841
1/8 mi ET     7.8830      7.9131
1/8 mph       84.75        85.05
1/4 mi ET     12.7270    12.7323
1/4 mph        97.00        97.59

electrabishi

About $30K in the car itself between the two of us and a couple sponsors:

60 each Enersys Genesis 12V 16XE batteries    $5,400.00
Zilla 2K 360V 2000A Controller     $4,950.00
WarP9  9" Series Wound DC motor    $1,700.00
TransWarP9 Series wound DC motor    $2,750.00
Manzanita Micro 50A PFC-50 Charger    $3,000.00
Dutchman MotorSports Ford 9" Rear End    $2,455.00
New Wheels to fit bigger Ford Lug Pattern    $250.00
BF Goodrich g-Force T/A   215-60R14 Drag Radials (two)    $264.00
Calvert Racing CAL-TRACS traction bars    $350.00
Three Larger Breakers    $600.00
KiloVac 3000 Amp Main Contactor    $1,000.00
#4/0 Cable and Copper Buss Bars    $250.00
Accessory and SLI +12V DC/DC Converter     $350.00
Roll Bar Kit     $300.00
New Rear Springs    $500.00
Rabbit Core Controller for LCD Dash Display    $300.00
Spider box for 240V 50 Amp Genset Distribution    $300.00
Diesel Genset running Veggie Oil for at track charging    $2,000.00
used Ford F-250 for hauling to track    $1,500.00
Trailer for Hauling car to the track    $1,500.00
Battery Trays fabricated    $360.00
Switches, wire, nuts, bolts, odds, ends etc    $1,000.00
Body detailing and touch up    $500.00
Total    $31,579.00

map351

Now that the pinto is running/moving what did it cost to get it to this point?
73 2.3Turbo Pinto
6S1941 / 289 Slab Side
40 Ford Sedan Delivery  For Sale

Pinto FiberGlass
https://picasaweb.google.com/73turbopinto/PintoHotpantsKitNewFrontAirdam

electrabishi

Its actually that high because we are planning taller tires.  But we just made our full power runs on Monday and at some point will get into streamlining and weight savings mode.  Suffice to say at 12.72 seconds I'm sure we can knock a half second off once the batteries get fully woken up as well as some aero and weight saving mods.  Here's a copy of the Press Release I sent out yesterday.  Someone put up a video on Youtube from one of our shakedown runs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGx4jCbtHHs  Thats my buddies Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 420 HP  420 ft-lbs. He was turning 13.51's  He beat us on that day but we were only at 800 amps during that run.  We're now at 1500 amps doing 12.7's   :lol:

as well as a radio interview I did from the track on Alaska Public Radio Network:  http://aprn.org/2008/05/27/what-happens-when-you-dump-800-amps-into-an-electric-ford-pinto-you-win-races/

Press Release follows:

Alaska Electric Vehicle Association

Contact Information:                                                                                     May 27th, 2008

Mike Willmon, President, Alaska EVA
Phone:
E-mail:  electrabishi@ak.net
Website:  www.AlaskaEVA.org

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: 

"Electric Crazyhorse Pinto Dragster plunges into the 12 second ET's at Alaska Raceway Park"

ANCHORAGE, AK – During the Prockish Memorial on Monday, Alaska Raceway Park saw its first electric dragster plunge from its debut at 14.0052 seconds @ 91.42 mph in the ¼ mile all the way down to its best  of  the day of 12.7270 seconds @ 97.00 mph.  Mike Willmon and Hank Buettner who are co-owner/builder/drivers of the car, with significant sponsorship by GCI Communications, Inc. and TTU Telecommunications, ran their last 4 runs consistently within .018 seconds, and the top three of those runs within .0053 seconds. This is sure to be a good bracket racer.  John Wayland who's 1972 Datsun 1200 "White Zombie" owns the world record for the quickest street legal electric dragster says "the Pinto is only the 3rd such electric car in its street legal conversion class to break into the 12's and of those it's the second quickest".   Problems with a battery strap modification performed a few days before kept the Pinto in the 15's all morning but once the problem was resolved they dropped right into a 12.989 second ET, bypassing the 13 second range altogether.  Mike and Hank say they've gradually turned up to full power and landing in the high 12's is a good benchmark but that further improvements will likely be hard fought gains.  The electric Pinto while optimized for racing still costs only about 25% of what its gasoline counterpart requires to drive on the street.  With gasoline at $4/gallon and electricity at $0.13/Kwh Mike says a 75% savings in cost makes it economical enough to drive to work.  Mike says you would be hard pressed to find a street car off the lot that can beat the Pinto at the track unless you are looking into the high end and custom performance production units. Details on the Pinto can be viewed at http://www.evalbum.com/1093 and images, video's and regular updates for any records set will be tracked at the National Electric Drag Racing Association website http://www.nedra.com .

In locations where electric drag racing is more prevalent the National Electric Drag Racing Association holds national EVents which draw participants and spectators from all over the country.  One such EVent is the "Power of DC" http://www.powerofdc.com  which is being held at the Mason Dixon Dragway in Hagerstown, Maryland this weekend May31st-June 1st, 2008. 

The National Electric Drag Racing Association exists to increase public awareness of electric vehicle (EV) performance and to encourage through competition, advances in electric vehicle technology. NEDRA achieves this by organizing and sanctioning safe, silent and exciting electric vehicle drag racing events.  NEDRA is a coalition of drag racing fans, electric drag racing vehicle owners and drivers, individuals interested in promoting the sport of EV drag racing, EV parts suppliers, EV manufacturers and other environmentally concerned companies and individuals. Working together as a group, we put excitement into electric vehicle drag racing. http://www.nedra.com

Details on the Alaska Electric Vehicle Association can be found at http://www.alaskaeva.org

###

Pintony

Hello electrabishi,
Two things I noticed about your Pinto...
You need to lower the car to get it out of the air and install some lexan headlight covers.
If you can? Try to make them a bit concave so the air flows over instead of hitting flat.
These will help the 100MPH goal...
From Pintony

electrabishi

Just wanted to wake up this thread with some results of the electric Crazyhorse Pinto shakedown runs at the Alaska Raceway Park on Mothers Day Sunday.  I'm reposting (below) the story I sent to the NEDRA list as well as putting some links to the pics I took.  Since I took them, obviously they are of my buddy Hank driving.  I'm still waiting for the ones that others took of me, as well as the several video cameras that I comissioned to run.  ;D  Suffice to say I'm happy with 14.0052 seconds with only half the power dialed into the motor controller.  Going from 400 amps to 800 amps dropped us from 16.33 to 14.005 seconds.  I'm hoping that the gradual jump from 800 amps to 1500 amps will get us at least another second off the time and plunge us into the 12's.  What do any of you racers think a noob could shave off an E/T just by technique alone,  all else on the car being the same?
Enjoy,
Mike

http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF6943b.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF6951.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7004.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7009.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7011.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7014.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7015.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7018.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7020.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7024.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7025.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/DSCF7027.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Pinto_Pics/First_Time_Slips.pdf
________________________________________
From: Mike Willmon [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 1:08 AM
To: 'NEDRA@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: Crazyhorse Pinto debut at 14.0052 seconds

I am so beat from staying up til 3am the last several nights getting the Pinto ready for the track.  But suffice to say I have an EV grin that will last me now for  several days.  Long story short for now.  Everything went extremely well for the first day.  Confounded the tech inspector whose going to have to research battery tie down designs to find my system is more than adequate.  Old gasser rules mentality he thought he might try to get me to put 2 bolts for EACH battery.  Anyway, he let us run anyway  

We got 4 runs in today, two for me and two for Hank.  We alternated starting with me.

1st Run:
16.3329 @ 77.85 mph this was at 400battery amps for the first shake down run.
Didn't meet conditions for series parallel shift

2nd Run Hank talked me into bumping to 500 amps for his extra belly weight.
16.1358 @ 76.52 mph
Hank said it shifted but was pretty mild

3rd Run: I bumped to 800 battery amps and could do a full burnout
(this and the previous two runs were at full tire pressure)
14.2090 @ 90.14 mph     
Definite S/P shift now   Spectators said they could definitely see it too.

4th run: Hank dropped rear tire pressure to 20 psi (from 44 psi  oops) stayed at 800 amps
14.0052 @ 91.42 mph.

Forgot to keep the SLI charging between runs and it flaked out on me when I was staged with 1000 battery amps dialed in.  Turning off the Zilla cooling pump allowed it to stay on long enough to get me to the pits.  By the time we got it topped off they closed the track at 3pm.  It was the opening day Test and Tune and there weren't a whole lot of people there.  But they did talk about all the flyers and articles that our PR girl handed to the track announcer.

All in all a fun day and like I said, EV grin will last for several days now.  We got 14 seconds which is what I had hoped for on the first day, but not the 100 mph which we could have easily made if we started off at higher currents.  Just wanted to play it safe to see how the pony handles.  It was solid and like a dream.  No wander, no bounce. She just hunkered down and kept pulling all the way to the end.    There were a few photographers there that I invited but I didn't touch base with them before we left.  I'll get up with them this week and see what we looked like.  I believe there was some video taken as well but I'll have to find it.  Everyone who stopped by to look were amazed.  They were saying "way cool" even for the 76 mph run, heh heh.  Wait till they see full power  :hypno:

Mike

 

electrabishi

map351,
With the pack designed for drag racing unfortunately I only expect 25-30 mile range.  The track is 55 miles away.  So I'll be trailering up to the track.  I am driving it every day to work right now though, 15 mile round trip.

Mike

Scott Hamilton

This is so cool.. I would like to see videos of the car run or videos from someone driving it inside...

I would LOVE to see videos of the car racing and blowing the 'unsuspecting' doors off the competition..

I have been watching this thread with anticipation!




Sweet..
Yellow 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
Green 72, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
White 73, Runabout, 2000cc, 4Spd
The Lemon, the Lime and the Coconut, :)

Fred Morgan

electrabishi is right I researched elec. car's in late 70's, max hp from dead stop. I had a bet with fellow worker's, I am going to take this Taylordunn cart and tug a Convair airliner 580 6000 hp.. and guess what is was pay up time. Also read book's on solar and how to power house, wasn't worth the start cost and maint., could get elec. for 20 yrs. to break even. Fred   ???  :)
Fred Morgan- Missing from us...
January 20th 1951-January 6th 2014

Beloved PCCA Parts Supplier and Friend to many.
Post your well wishes,
http://www.fordpinto.com/in-memory-of-our-fallen-pinto-heros/fred-morgan-23434/

map351

Are you going to drive the pinto to the track and back?
73 2.3Turbo Pinto
6S1941 / 289 Slab Side
40 Ford Sedan Delivery  For Sale

Pinto FiberGlass
https://picasaweb.google.com/73turbopinto/PintoHotpantsKitNewFrontAirdam

electrabishi

Well after three months I got new spring packs, 6 pt roll bar, battery trays, motor controller, switching contactors, Dutchman Motorsports Ford 9" rear end, CalTracs traction bars and some beater batteries (takeouts from my truck) installed and the electric Pinto is on the road!  I have 167 miles on the new rear end and the Dutchman tells me to put 500 miles on before I install the race batteries.  She's pretty peppy with the 120 volts and 400 amps direct drive into a 3.25 ratio from half dead batteries.  I can't wait to get the 360 volt and 1600 amp pack installed.  I've been bustin' butt lately to get her ready for the track by opening day May 11th.  With gas bumping up against $4/gal there will surely be people asking where to get one.  Here are a couple pics.  You can see a few more as well as a few details at http://www.evalbum.com/1093



V8pinto_306_n2o

I don't know about any bolt in back half kits.  Here is a description of a back half install in a unibody car (65' Mustang). 

http://www.cachassisworks.com/Stories/HowCAC-003_WEB.pdf

With all that weight in batteries, I would be planning at least a roll cage and subframe connectors.  Depending on where you locate the batteries, you could get away with a minimal amount of fab but with all that torque?  I'd be doing some bracing.

electrabishi

To answer your last question first.  The car will primarily be a dragster for showing off the abilities of electric vehicles at the track.  However it will be kept street legal and Il will be taking it to car shows as well as using it as a display at alternative energy fairs and demo's.  I already have an electric daily driver so I won't need to put too many miles on the Pinto....It might qualify for Historical Vehicles plates...isn't it a classic at 30 years?

The lead acid batteries weigh 850 lbs.  If I could afford an Lithium-ion pack it would only weigh 175 lbs with the same power capability and actually more capacity.  I don't have an extra $20K though.  So $6K will have to do for a few more years.

So with all that weight in the back I'm working on having made new spring packs.  Also too, the whole back floor pan behind the axle will come out and I'll build a tub to hold half the batteries.  The other half will go in front of the axle in the back seat area.  Maybe if I design it right I could build the "back-half" frame members into the battery trays.  Its hard designing from scratch and I'm thinking of buying a back half kit and building the battery trays onto them.  Does anyone know of some good pics or article detailing a back half installation?

Next would be the 6-point roll bar.  I see a lot of 8-point bars advertised but wonder how a Pitno would benefit if there is nothing under the tunnel to hook the other 2 points to.  Plus those two additional points would run right through my front battery tray.  Soooo..... may I incorporate a tie in point from the main loop of the bar to the front of the forward battery tray.

Does anyone know if the bolt in back half kits are worth a damn.  Or is welding recommended?

Mike

V8pinto_306_n2o

I would like to get a roll cage from Chris Alston - for starters...   ;D 

I was looking at their front ends and back halves too.  It's so tough to find front end parts for the early Pintos..  I am seriously considering just swapping on the Alston front end and being done with it.  As for the backhalf...  I would like to put some big meats under the rear.  Trying to copy the pro-stock look of the Pintos from the 70's.  I'd like to run some 32" tall tires and some skinnies up front.  Get the wheels in the air on launch..  The only way to get a big tire under there is to tub it so...  I am local to his shop and he sponsors a racing series at our dragstrip so I want to give him my business.

Although I don't yet have a roll cage, I would say don't worry about the loss of E.T.  The safety and chassis stiffness you'll get will be worth it.  Also, won't you need some sort of a frame to house your batteries?  They're heavy right?  The roll cage would help with that.

What is your application - what will you do with the car?

electrabishi

Yeah thats about what I was figuring.  But I need to stiffen the chassis somehow and unless someone tells me there's a lighter way the roll bar and subframe connectors will be it.

Whatchya looking at from chassisworks?  Did they have roll bars?  I didn't see any.

Nice Fab9 rear ends though.  I got mine from Dutchman Motorsports in Oregon.  Heavy duty housing, Strange gear case, hardened 35 spline race axles.  I should be good to go if I don't twist the car in half :-O

Mike

V8pinto_306_n2o

Chris Alston's stuff is what I'm saving for..

http://www.cachassisworks.com/Home.html

As for the weight of the cage slowing you down, yes it will.  100lbs will add a tenth or so - very coarse rule.  Use it only as a gross estimate.

Pintony

The shipping weight in the Pinto cage is 175 lbs

Link to Pinto 8 point cage

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_10001_10002_55820_-1

From Pintony

electrabishi

Thanks.  I'll definitely connect front/back halfs.  Thinking seriously about the 6 point cage too,  from the start.  Any chance you know what a decent 6 pt cage would weigh for a Pinto?  Being as I'm new to racing cars I wouldn't know how much the weight of a cage affects 1/4 mile times.  I'm hoping the bars will come in not much more than 150 lbs.

Anyone sell these as kits or plans? .. or have a good "how to"?

Thanks much.

crazyhorse

A friend of mine had a HI HP Pinto for a long time. He ran 10.5 sec 1/4mi off the bottle, and IIRC sub 9sec on it. When he'd launch, you could watch the upper door frame separate from the jamb. After 25 years of this he stripped it down to media blast the body. When it came back, there were way too many stress cracks to fix.

My reccommendation, beyond the subframe conectors, is a 6pt cage, to keep the chassis from twisting with the torque. Look under the rear end, there aren't any subframes in the back. It's supported purely by the floorpans. Anything you can do to tie the rear of the car together will be an improvement.
How to tell when a redneck's time is up: He combines these two sentences... Hey man, hold my beer. Hey y'all watch this!
'74 Runabout, stock 2300,auto  RIP Darlin.
'95 Olds Gutless "POS"
'97 Subaru Legacy wagon "Kat"

V8pinto_306_n2o

Quote from: electrabishi on January 12, 2008, 03:41:26 AM
...Does anyone have ~450 HP in a Pinto, or ~1000 ft-lbs of Torque.  I'm woried about the chassis taking a beating.  Other than connecting the front and back half frame members what other frame stiffening techniques could I use?

Mike

Hey Mike,

My Pino is in that HP range - doubt it's near that torque though.  I'm running a decently peppy 306 with 275HP of two stage Nitrous on top. 

With the zero-rpm torque peak of the electric motor, your chassis *could* sustain some damage but your right foot will be the instigator.  Unless you're building it for the electric drags, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  Sub-frame connectors are a good idea.  I don't have them and my windshield has cracked and I have a gap around the windshield frame on the passenger side.

All in all, the Pinto chassis, even though it is a uni-body is pretty rugged.  Having said that, you're in new territory as far as Pinto's go.

crazyhorse

I've seen the electric Imp project, it's one sweet piece.

Trouble is, my work frowns on us using a fan, I can only imagine plugging in an EV! I could likely get away with it, but not many others could.
How to tell when a redneck's time is up: He combines these two sentences... Hey man, hold my beer. Hey y'all watch this!
'74 Runabout, stock 2300,auto  RIP Darlin.
'95 Olds Gutless "POS"
'97 Subaru Legacy wagon "Kat"

electrabishi

Hey Crazyhorse,  mostly a pure dragster.  It'll still be street legal to drive to shows.  And with the exception of the 9" rear end its pretty much a stock conversion.

How long do you stay at work?  if you only need 24 mile to get there then presumably you could plug in while working for 4 or 5 hours, eh?

If you're into Subaru's too there's a guy running lithium ion batteries for auto cross here http://www.evalbum.com/464   and   http://www.proev.com/MenuE.htm

Mike

douglasskemp

Quote from: electrabishi on January 12, 2008, 03:41:26 AM
Does anyone have ~450 HP in a Pinto, or ~1000 ft-lbs of Torque.  I'm woried about the chassis taking a beating.  Other than connecting the front and back half frame members what other frame stiffening techniques could I use?

You may want to get in touch with 78Pinto on here.  With a twin turbo 383W stroker in his 78, I am sure he's got some ideas.

Only thing I can think of besides subframe connectors would be a full cage, but you may want that anyway just for safety.  Rollovers without one look nasty!
The Pinto I had I gave to my brother. The car was originally my mom's, (78 red Pinto sedan with a 2.3 and a 4spd.) I am originally from Tucson, AZ but moved to Oxnard CA :D
I'm looking for a Pinto wagon with an automatic.

crazyhorse

So, this is a pure dragster huh? Looks like a great project!

For the people interested, I'll post a link to the Ultimate Subaru Message Board. There's a guy there with an electric '78 Subaru Coupe. This is his summertime daily driver.
http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=81505

I love the idea of converting my Pinto to electric. Though I'd need at least a 50mi range with a leadfoot, as my commute is 24mi one way.
How to tell when a redneck's time is up: He combines these two sentences... Hey man, hold my beer. Hey y'all watch this!
'74 Runabout, stock 2300,auto  RIP Darlin.
'95 Olds Gutless "POS"
'97 Subaru Legacy wagon "Kat"

electrabishi

Update on the electric pinto project...got the motors mounted  ;D
You can see a couple pics here http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1093

I'm also copying a post I sent to my EV list.  There are links at the bottom to a few more pics with a little better resolution.

Its been going slower that I anticipated but I still hope to make it to the track for the first Test & Tune of the season at my track on May 21st.  Since the motors are in I still need to put in the new 9" rear end, set my pinion angle, get a new spring pack to take the 850 lbs of batteries and add 1" ride height for the bigger tires. I'll have a drive shaft built by a local shop and that should round out the mechanical stuff. Then I mount the controller, contactors, cables, build battery trays (one in front and one behind the rear axle) and then test it. 

Does anyone have ~450 HP in a Pinto, or ~1000 ft-lbs of Torque.  I'm woried about the chassis taking a beating.  Other than connecting the front and back half frame members what other frame stiffening techniques could I use?

(post to EVDL with links to additional motor pics):

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 12:35 AM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Crazyhorse Pinto Motors are in :-)

After a couple weeks, measuring, cutting, looking at, measuring again, welding, measuring, looking at, measuring again, welding some more and finally painting....we got the motor mounts finished and tonight the motors went "into the Pinto".

Jim, we didn't Even touch them, so how's that ;-P  And the batteries are here now so there is nothing holding us up now....well...almost nothing ;-)

After much concern and re-measuring and several attempts at the drawing board we finally mocked the motors up with wood. And just measured and cut everything to fit.  There seems to be huge tracts of real estate inside the Pinto, at least compared to what I've seen and heard about a certain white Datsun 1200.  5/8" terminal clearance on one of the back motor studs and 1/2" on the other.  1/2" under the back motor to the front end cross member. 1/2" each side of the rear motor inside the tunnel.  Front CE shaft does not encroach past where the radiator would normally mount.  The angle is just right for matching to a rear end (which is next to go in by the way).  The gear coupler has over 1/2" clearance over the steering rack (because the space between the motors straddles the steering unit.  These things would have a huge downward angle (~11 degrees) if they were Siamese just to clear the top of the tunnel and the top of the steering gear.  Having the motors split allows them to set down a couple inches creating the perfect motor angle for the driveline.

Enjoy some pics.

http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6198.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6209.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6212.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6213.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6214.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6218.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6220.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6223.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6224.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6225.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6226.JPG
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Motor_Install_8Jan08/DSCF6227.JPG


Mike

electrabishi

If you know A to B time you can estimate the extra time to C if you assume constant acceleration.  However the sharp contrast in 1000 ft-lbs at the launch versus the ~200 ft lbs at the end would give you a more optimistic ET if you assume a constant 1000 ft lbs the whole track.  I know that the gassers don't exactly do that.  But years and years of empirical data that says if a car does the 60 ft in 1.58 seconds the 1/4 mile time will be 11.37 seconds at 117 mph.  The calculator is built either assuming constant acceleration or based on a typical power curve for an internal combustion engine.  Those calculators are slightly off for the EV racers, but after several years of gathering data there will be accurate calculators for that as well.

map351

Your still going from A to B 660' or 1320' 
73 2.3Turbo Pinto
6S1941 / 289 Slab Side
40 Ford Sedan Delivery  For Sale

Pinto FiberGlass
https://picasaweb.google.com/73turbopinto/PintoHotpantsKitNewFrontAirdam

electrabishi

The Torque/Power curves for electric motors look way different than gas engines, so the normal benchmarks used for estimating 1/4 mile times don't quite hold.  While a series wound DC motor produces its max (almost unbelievable) torque at zero RPM, it tapers of sharply as RPMs rise.  And so while an EV gives impressive hole shots the key is to get out ahead and up to speed quick.  The gasser will be getting into its peak power band somewhere around the time the EV torque is tapering off.  While the Torque curve has a large excursion compared to the gas car, the power band is wide and almost flat across the entire RPM range.

My pinto was 2350 lbs stock.  With all the junk removed I lose some weight, but the motors weigh 300# a pair and the batteries will weigh in around ~850 lbs.  I'm figuring the car will weigh between 2700 and 2800 lbs when I'm done with it.

Yes it will be 10 seconds faster than the stock Pinto version.  But more importantly it will be faster than most stock Mustangs, 'Vettes and Vipers too, and still only cost about 7 cents worth of electricity to run it down the track.

The real strength of electrics in racing though is in bracket racing.  Their performance is repeatable.  Variations in battery temperature, track conditions and driver consistency are really the only thing that affects the variability of the times.  No throttle linkages, fouled plugs, turbo lag, clutch slip, fuel mixture, firing advance, lifters, timing chains or belts, ... its just like my kids electric John Deer tractor.  Just stab the pedal and hold on for dear life ;-)  Dennis Berube bracket races his electric rail  http://www.currenteliminator.net/home/ , however his claim as the fastest 1/4 mile EV has now been eclipsed by the Killacycle.

Pintony

An electric Pinto would still be 10 seconds faster than stock.

map351

QuoteI'm upward revising my estimated torque capability to ~1000 ft-lbs.

With that TQ # in a 2500 lb car it should be in the mid 8s... Or are these cars that  heavy?

QuoteKillacycle with its recent 7.824 @168 MPH

I watched the Killacycle make a pass, impressive for a exhibition show bike. If it did had to run in the Pro classes it's about a .90 slow, i think the Harleys would eat it for lunch on a level playing field.. 
73 2.3Turbo Pinto
6S1941 / 289 Slab Side
40 Ford Sedan Delivery  For Sale

Pinto FiberGlass
https://picasaweb.google.com/73turbopinto/PintoHotpantsKitNewFrontAirdam