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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

5 Speed Transmission

Started by PonyRider62, February 14, 2019, 01:24:50 PM

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The Whistler

Side note we are in the middle of a 2.3 build and we have considered a modern 10 speed auto as a trans of choice to put behind this build. Yes it will be high HP build 450 HP on base tune and we would like to see if we can get 30 plus MPG  on the highway. I have gotten 40ish MPG out of current set-up using 5 speed that puts out 400ish on the ground!
Turbo is a way of life

The Whistler

I have no desire to cause an argument either! Just share info and thoughts! I am not trying to encourage or discourage from going the 5 speed route. There are pros and cons to doing this we both weighted in on both sides of the argument. It will take work money and patience to get this right.And most of all it will not be for anyone but the right one! Also if you feel you are the one and can commit to it go for it! I can offer you all my experience to help you on this journey!
Turbo is a way of life

LongTimeFordMan

Well i agree with what you just posted as well and not trying to be argumentative

Ive done a lot of stuff with MG cars, especially MGA and MGB which had 1400 and 1800 cc engines. They all had 4 speeds and some had laycock hydro electric  overdrives to provide a 5th top gear..

But they also had 3.90 rear ratios to allow for low ratios for starting  but topped out quickly at highway speeds in 4 gear, typically about 3800 rpm at 65.

The OD reduced the engine speed to about 3000 at 65, BUT on hills itas necessary to shift out of OD .

So the OD was a way to provide more ratios to accomplish an overall  low 1st with a moderately comfortable highway ratio to allow the engine to cruise at 3000 rpm overall.

The key was the overall ratio including bothe the low 3.90 real end and optional high ratio 5th gear to provide a 3000 rpm cruise.

Most folks today feel that simply bolting a transmission with a higher top ratio to their existing normally high rear ratio will provide more speed or fuel ecnomy but as mentioned before. A STOCK 2.0 might not be able to pull the higher top ratio on anything except flat or downhill roads and bogging the engine could decrease economy..

And newer cars with engine management systems can vary both fuel delivery AND IGNITION TIMING to match engine loading.. something early pintos lacked.. thats why some newer cars with 5 or 6 speed trans can get high mileage its not necessarily the transmission.

To optomize the overall performance you need to look at the overall ratio inluding top trans ratio, rear ratio, tire size and engine power band.

Some cars are optomized for a low engine power band some for high. Stock 2.0 Pintos seem to like about 3000 rpm minimum for hills and highway.. below this requires a lower ratio.

The advantage of a 5 speed would best be realized by using a 3.80 or 4.11 rear gear (which is a difficult find for the factory 6 3/4 rear end) with a 5 speed to improve the BOTTOM END accelleration and allow  comfortable highway cruise at 3000 rpm.

But again with a few minor engine mods you can improve the low end torque and expand the overall power band to accomplish the better acceleration without any major gearing changes. So its a matter of efficiency and money and effort from there..and how much time you want to spend wrenching on the car.

If you want you could install.an aftermarket OD unit on the rear end and end up with an 8 speed. Its just a matter of time and money.

Bottom line..I considered both the t9 and t5 conversions and  if someone gave me a T9 in good shape or i could find one for a couple hundred dollars, I would probably bolt it in but I prolly wouldnt spend time chasing one down.. my factory 4 speed does everything i need it to do including 3000 mile pinto stampeds every year over freeways and mountain roads and serves as my daily driver.

I am in the market for a good spare to have rebuilt to have on hand for the future.
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

The Whistler

LTFM I disagree with you on some things. Mostly because of my personal experience in this matter! I will not compare racing applications to this. That is like comparing apples to oranges. A Pinto was not a premier car and American auto manufactures were too cheap to put a 5 speed trans in a Pinto! European and Japanese used them with great success in much lesser cars with smaller less powerful engines at that time!   
Turbo is a way of life

LongTimeFordMan

Back in about 68 my brother in tacoma wa found a tiger with a 289, 4 speed, 4bbl and aluminum flywheel. He bought it for $1100.   Not sure of the trans ratio but he said that 1st gear started pulling at about 30 mph.. he ran it in the 1/4 mile and topped off 2nd at about 120 mph.

But with stock tires and wet roads traction was a real problem

From my understanding early 289 engines had different bolt patterns from the later ones...

My brother also raced pintos in the 90s and when i asked about a 5 speed he mentioned the elusive v6 model with a 1"spacer plate.. 

I looked at trying to find a 5 speed conversion for my 73 wagon but decided that the gain wasnt worth the  effort  and my 4 speed does as much as i could ever want.. goes down the road reliably..

But i am in the market for a good 4 speed core to have rebuilt as a spare..

Taylor will do a rebuild to racing specs for $500
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Wittsend


Quote from: LongTimeFordMan on March 28, 2019, 10:54:33 PM
Well I still suggest just keeping the factory 4 speed , making some minor engine and tire mods to improve driveability and save money especially since he doesnt want to mod the pinto structure


I don't necessarily disagree. Way back in post #4 (reply #3) I stated:
"Note that some have used the T-5 but the consensus is varied. Some find it OK while others say the slightest incline (or head wind) force you out of 5th gear."


I was simply giving information (a "5 speed transmission" question was asked in the first post) that a T-5 was an option (and what was entailed from experience with a 2.3) since the T-5 came up in the discussion.  And, that GENERALLY (meaning most likely to find) some T-5's came with the 4.00 1st gear (2.3) and others were 3.35 (Mustang - failing to state on my part a V-8 Mustang). I'm not a salesman promoting the T-5 behind a 2.0, I'm just giving information for the original poster to decide for himself. And as we have both noted, it seems he already has.


I find myself in a similar predicament with my Sunbeam Tiger. An early car it has  the 2.32 1st gear close ratio gear set and the narrow pattern transmission on a 5 bolt bellhousing (early 289). Toploaders are getting extremely pricey and the cost to go to a wide ratio isn't in my wallet. I'd like to go with a Mustang V-8 T-5 but the trans to bellhousing bolt pattern isn't there. And late trans pattern/5 bolt bellhousing (usually a dual pattern bellhousing) are rather rare and expensive. And finally where as the 2.32 is too tall for 1st gear in the Toploader the 3.35 many say is too short in the T-5.  The ideal in the Tiger is the aftermarket 2.95 but you won't be finding one of those for $150 at Pick Your Part. So, yea, I get transmission conundrums. :(


Lastly I thought I had found my solution similar to your recommendation . A Jeep Toploader (T-178) came with 3.00 1st gear and a 1:1 4th gear. I was considering swapping that gearset into my case and running a taller tire. That in essence would have brought me down to the equivalent of a wide ratio (2.78) Toploader and also effectively been equal to some degree of overdrive.  Seemed like a great idea but for 15 years finding a T-178 is very elusive.  Even on Jeep forums they don't seem to enter discussion.  I asked once and got no effective reply.

LongTimeFordMan

Well I still suggest just keeping the factory 4 speed , making some minor engine and tire mods to improve driveability and save money especially since he doesnt want to mod the pinto structure
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

russosborne

In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Wittsend

Quote from: The Whistler on March 28, 2019, 07:48:19 PM
Wittsend please clarify Mustang version. A Mustang used the following engines a I4 a I6 a V6 and a V8 over the years! The SVO had it's own versions of the T5 but they will fit in place of any 4cyl Trans. All the non worldclass T5 used behind a 4 cyl are the same. All worldclass used behind a 4 cyl are the same except the SVO T5s. And there are differences in the T5 used behind the V6s and V8s over the years besides gear ratios! The input shafts are different lengths between certain years!

Yes, I was remiss, I assumed that most people know the 3.35 was used behind the V-8 Mustangs (and is the transmission I was referring to). Behind the 2.0 he has strength is probably not an issue.  While I did differentiate it from the 2.3 T-5 (less the SVO exception) I did not specify it specific to the V-8 version.

For the most part until the original poster can identify what specific T-5 transmission he has?, or is it he was considering it?, or he thought it was a t-9??? - this is starting to get confusing..., all this information while ultimately of value might be clouding the issue. And if even with a T-9 he doesn't want to cut the under carpet trans tunnel slightly I think the situation is solved because it doesn't seem to be going forward.

LongTimeFordMan

The input shaft of a t5 is different than the factory 4 speed. in length, spline and pilot bearing.. Also there were several varients of the t5 all with different input shaft lengths, splines pilot bearings to fit different applications.. also several bell housings. there is one t5 that supposedly was installed in a v6 ford that has an input shaft with the proper spline but you need to add a 1" spacer between the engine and bell housing.. but you need to have a pilot bearing custom made and find a clutch that matches both the spline and flywheel.

The bolt locations for the 2.3 bell housing will not fit the 2.0 engine.

You may also need to cut a hole in the tunnel to relocate the shifter even with the t9

The rear trans.mount is the easiest part...

The reason folks use the t9 is that it was built to fit the 2.0 engine bolt pattern, spline, etc.

The t5 was built to mate to the 2.3 and later engines

.as i mentioned above.. easiest and cheepest solution.. find a 6 3/4 rear end with 3.40 gears..

Find a decent factory FoG Type E 4 speed, have it rebuilt. Add a few engine mods for more torque, add some.14" tires and let the stock 2.0  sing down the road at 3000 rpms at 70 mph like it was designed to.. 

With a 5 speed you will need to get up about 80 mph to get to the optimum enngine speed..

5 speeds for great for racing cars with really low rear ratios.. 3.70- 4.11 that need max acceleration a t a wide range of speeds.. a 5 speed provides more ratios but for street driving first gear would be really low.

For my car with 3.40 rear end and 14" tires my 1st gear  is really short 23 mph and takes less than a few seconds to top out even if i rev it to 6000 rpm. On wet roads or gravel difficult to avour wheel spin.

2nd tops at about 50 at 5000 rpm.  I cruise at 1800 rpm at 40 mph in 4th around town.
Generally dont use 3rd much except at 30 mph and accellerating onto fwy, just 1,2 4 shifrs

. First gear with a 4.11 rear end and 5 speed would prolly top out at 18 at 4500 rpm. In a race car that turns 7000 plus rpm this would be useful not in a street car.

And 4th the gear with stock carb would top at maybe 55 at 4500. This is where you NEED 5th gear..

You probably wont notice any benefit from the effort necessary to find and install a t9 except having that sexy shift knob with a 5 speed pattern on it and probably wont use 5 gear except for high speed crusing on flat or downhill..and prolly no increase in fuel economy.

Did you check the link to taylor racing.. they are experts on both  Type 9 FoG and merkur t9

And will sell.you one for only $2000 us


Ps.. with the above mods  to my car i have  driven it on the last 3 pinto.stampedes each 3000 miles over freeway and mountain back roads.. kept up with bothe the 2.3, v6 and v8 cars.. just hummed down the road at 3000 rpm all day long.

Also.. even with 3.40 rear end and 14" tires my 4 speed is really short 23 mph.even if i rev it to 6000 rpm. First gear with a 4.11 rear end and 5 speed would prolly top out at 18. And 4 the gear aithe stock carb would top at maybe 55 at 4500
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

The Whistler

Wittsend please clarify Mustang version. A Mustang used the following engines a I4 a I6 a V6 and a V8 over the years! The SVO had it's own versions of the T5 but they will fit in place of any 4cyl Trans. All the non worldclass T5 used behind a 4 cyl are the same. All worldclass used behind a 4 cyl are the same except the SVO T5s. And there are differences in the T5 used behind the V6s and V8s over the years besides gear ratios! The input shafts are different lengths between certain years!
Turbo is a way of life

PintoMan1


thanks guys for the information. I didn't think it was a t9 when I say the shifter location. and as far as cutting up my car, no way I want to do that after I put 4 years into rebuilding it from ground up. I am just going to have to do more research on this.


also as far as the picture of the t5, he also mentioned that he had a 2.3 for sale as well. I think that is what he had it for.


Glen
1973 pinto runabout

Wittsend

I'm not sure what it takes to adapt a T-5 to a 2.0 engine. However, I did put a T-5 in my early (1973) Pinto wagon when I went to a 2.3 Turbo motor. Virtually everything I did, I did with an angle grinder, a file and a drill. From my perspective it wasn't complicated.


1. I used an angle grinder to cut the shifter opening in the transmission tunnel forward about 2"-3". This took about a minute.


2. I used a file to lengthen the slots in the transmission crossmember. In retrospect (knowing what I know now) I would probably just drill holes as far back as possible. This took about 5 minutes.


3. As mentioned above I simply reversed the crossmember and used the C-4 transmission mount that came with the car. This took no extra time.


4. As mentioned above I used a small piece of steel plate to elevate the clutch cable over the front suspension crossmember. This was simply a drill bit for the two holes and an angle grinder to cut the steel to size. I did weld on an anti rotate tab (in case it ever came loose) but that wasn't absolutely necessary. This took about 30 minutes. Note my pictures show I slotted the crossmembner holes..., but I found that was unnecessary.


5. As mentioned above I cut a piece of steel with an angle grinder to move my shifter rearward.  I also cut the lever, shortened it and reconfigured  its shape. This I did use a MIG welder for and many may not have that tool. Depending on an individuals idea of proper position and comfort this may or may not be necessary. In my case it took about an hour. It is the one thing in the process that wasn't inexpensive, but only because someone who didn't have a weld would either have to pay someone, or buy one. In my case I had my welder for years.


6. Not mentioned above is I went from a C-4 Automatic / 6-3/4" rear to a T-5 / 8" rear. The original driveshaft fit perfectly without alteration!


So, from my perspective the T-5 adaptation (to a 2.3 in an early '73 Pinto) was rather easy. Again, I never adapted a T-5 to a 2.0 and the inputs shaft length, the proper disc, pressure plate, fork, throwout bearing, pilot bearing, driveshaft alterations etc. might be a far more entailed process. To be honest the driveshaft fitment came as a pleasant surprise. The 8" rear did cost me $115 but I'd rather have the strength of that than to have kept the 6-3/4" and paid a similar amount to have the driveshaft altered.


A few more pictures (clutch cable elevation plate and transmission mount pieces).

LongTimeFordMan

The t9 was only fitted to merkurs in america but were fitted to other ford products in england and europe that used the 2.0 sohc engine.. like the sierra

No other american ford used the t9

A t5 will not fit into an early pinto without major mods to the pinto.

The t9 had a flat stamped steel top cover like the factory Type E FoG 4 speed..

The t9 was essentially a FoG 4 speed with an additional section added between the  main case and shorted tail shaft.

Read this article..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Type_9_transmission

btw.. the 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 engines are variations of the original german 2.0 used in european ford products, not the kent or later 2.3 lima engines..

T9s are extremely rare and sell for upwards of $700 in rebuildable core condition if you can find one..
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

Wittsend

Usually there is a tag on the transmission stating what it is. In the Ford realm there are basically three T-5's most commonly denoted by their 1st gear ratio.

1. The 2.3 version had roughly a 4.00 1st gear (some say 3.96 others 4.03) I'll average it to 4.00. It has a longer input shaft length.

2. The Mustang V-8 version had a 3.35 1st gear ratio. It has a shorter input shaft length.

3. The aftermarket (Ford Motorsports) version had a 2.95 1st gear ratio. The input shaft should be the same as the Mustang V-8 version.

There are other T-5's, The Chevette, the Camaro/Firebird with tilted case, the Datsun and I believe a few others. Some T-5's were world class (stronger) and others not. Even in the Ford use they were different in lengths, input shaft length and varying strengths. There were even a few (at least one) different ratios from what I have stated.

If the transmission in the picture is the Mustang V-8 version I recall there being a special pilot bearing that compensates for the shorter input shaft length. What the input shaft splines are and what disc fits that and the 2.3 flywheel size, someone else will have to provide that.  However, a 3.35 1st gear ratio is likely not too conducive to the 2.0 given the 2.3 (for the most part) used 4.00 1st gear.


If if using the 2.3 version (4.00 1st gear in my case from a T/C) as far as mounting goes I was able to just reverse the transmission crossmember and then slot the holes to support the trans using the stock Pinto mount (round hockey puck style). The transmission opening (for the shift lever) only needs to be move forward about 2". Note that in the Pinto I modified the T/C shift lever (shorter/back further) because I was punching the dashboard in 1st, 3rd and 5th gears. It will be different for everyone's size but it was a lot of trial and error to get the lever so it felt right. Few have ever used the hydraulic system similar to the 87-88 T/C but most use the earlier "Bellcrank" bellhousing with a cable. This necessitates elevating the cable over the crossmember.  I'll post a few pictures.

The Whistler

Again you are looking at a T5!
Turbo is a way of life

PintoMan1

I hope this worked. this is the picture of the trans (t9) he sent me.
1973 pinto runabout

PintoMan1

according to the man I was in contact with says it is a t9. but if you say the shifter location on a t9 is the same as a pinto. then the trans he sent a picture of cant be right. the shifter location is and looks to me like it would be a t5. it is set forward a little bit and the shifter is bolted in. I wish I could post pictures but I'm not sure if I can. always tells me that the are to big. I'll try
1973 pinto runabout

The Whistler

Clarify which transmission would you like to talk about T5 or T9? I do believe your facts are muddled.  Or do you want to see if I know what I am talking about?
Turbo is a way of life

The Whistler

Turbo is a way of life

PintoMan1

I was just told that the trans I have pictures of from the t-bird had a hydraulic clutch set up on this t9. do all t9 transmissions have a hydraulic set up including the merkur trans? I would like to keep it cable if possible. but if I had to go with a slave cylinder would I have to get it from the same car?
1973 pinto runabout

PintoMan1

the pictures of the one I seen are from a 88-89 t-bird.
1973 pinto runabout

The Whistler

Shifter location depends on what vehicle the trans came out of. I think the Merkur  is close to the Pinto shifter location if not the same.
To answer your question. No!
Turbo is a way of life

PintoMan1


ok, I was able to get a picture of one. there are some differences. first thing I see is that (your right) the shifter is held in with bolts, not screwed in like mine. the second thing is the location of the shifter. it is not in the same place as the 4sp trans I have. and third is the input shaft. the number of splines for the clutch, not the same. 


now for my next question. can the tail shaft from the pinto trans be swapped out and used on the gear box of the t9?


thanks, Glen
1973 pinto runabout

LongTimeFordMan

Afterthought

5 speeds are mostly used in race cars with low rear end ratios for quick low speed accelleration while 5th gear allows for higher top speed and more ratios to choose from in between so the engine can be run in a narrower power band and in street cars with high torque v8 or v6 with engine managament systems to keep engine revs low for economy.

I built mgb cars for awhile and they had 3.90 rear ratios. And 14 inch tires, 4 speeds trans with overdrives. Made power from 2500 to about 5800.  The overdrive was available in 2nd 3rd and 4th gear. Some racers used them as intermediate ratios between gears.

The rear ratio was good for quick starts and the overdrive allowed high speed cruise.

  In typical street driving i would get the car up to about 65 mph 3500 rpm 4th gear.  Engage the OD, revs dropped to about 3000.

BUT that was on level ground.. on hills had to switch off OD and pull hills at 3500.

Most early pintos had 3.40 gears and 13 " tires.. 3000 rpm at 65 mph

Add 14" tires.. like 10 percent OD and you come out to 3000 at 70 mph.. the pinto has a little more torque then the mgb so it can handle 4th gear

Later model V6 and V8 cars have engine management systems to adjust fuel.and ign toming to allow higher ratios for cruising and fuel savings.

Older mechanically tuned cars would probably use more fuel with the engine bogging below the optimum 3000 rpm cruise except at extremely low loads..

Basic rule.. it takes fuel to move a car down the road.

Best uel mileage is obtained when engine is run at best efficiency.

Running an engine at a speed lower than max effiency will probably use more fuel.

You probably wont get better mileage with a 5 speed.unless.you optomise the engine with a lower power curve and you will probably  get more bang from your buck with

an adjustable cam pulley from Racer Walsh and advance the cam a few degrees,

limit the distributor advance to about 14 degrees, set inital timing to 14 btdc for total advance of 28 degrees,( I posted and article here about how Idid mine, just replace one of the distributor springs with a loop of wire)

remove vacuum advance

Install a linkage kit on your weber 2bbl to allow both sections to open simultaneously rather than progressive for better throttle response and

Switch to 205 14 tires and you will be amazed at how well the car runs.

And for a lot less money and hassel than tracking down a 5 speed.
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

LongTimeFordMan

If you are serious about the t9 and have the money ( about $700 for a rebuildable core and $500 for an overhaul) contact they guys at

https://www.taylor-race.com in plano TX

They build early pinto type transmissions for race cars and later merkur transmissions.

Their typical price for a ready to go bolt in is about $2000 and they build full on racing dog boxes as well.

They are extermely knowledeable, have all the replacement parts and are willing to give advice but try not to pester them with non relavelent stuff so as to spoil their good nature..

As for the length the t9 is just a type e 4 speed with a redesigned tailshaft to allow for essentially an overdrive gear ro be added between the main case  and the tailshaft and I think the tailshaft was shortened to keep the overall length the same.

As far as the shifter all the 71-73 transmissions were mounted with a large screw in nylon bushing.  74 and up pinto and mustang used the bolte on type.

But again from experience.. I dont think a stock 2.0 with the factory cam timing and weber carb will pull 5th gear on more than a level or downhill stretch because factory motors were intended to run at 3000 rpm cruise.

The factory specs rate max torque at 3000 rpm, max power at 5800. They were not designed to cruise at 2000 rpm like a V8. My car runs at 3000 rpm at 70 mph and about 2400 at 50 well below the factory power range. I installed an adjustable cam pully to allow 6 degrees advance and upgraded the carburetor so my power starts at about 2400.

.and if you put a "high performance cam" that moves the power curve up so you will decrease the low end torque so most of the time you cant even use 5th gear..

Best solution advance the cam, replace the screwed up weber 24/32 carb switch to 205 14 tires and cruise at 70 mph at 3000 where the motor was designed to run...
Red 1973 pinto wagon DD, SoCal desert car, Factory 4 speed, 3.40 gears, Stock engine, 14" rims and tires, 60 K original miles

The Whistler

I am pretty sure that if your Pinto shifter is held in place on the trans by 3 bolts it will work.
Turbo is a way of life

The Whistler

It depends on which Pinto 4 speed you have!
Turbo is a way of life

PintoMan1

sorry, I forgot one more thing. will the shifter from the 4sp work with the t9 5sp?
1973 pinto runabout

PintoMan1


if  I may be so bold as to jump in here and ask a few silly questions. form what I am reading here and other posts on this subject. a great help by the way!! that the t9 is a bolt in application? is there any mods. needed to install? such as the drive shaft length? pilot bearing, clutch, and pressure plate? and the bell housing? the speedometer mount/location? I only ask these things, because I have never seen one to know the differences if any. please anyone in lighten me!!


thanks. Glen
1973 pinto runabout