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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

New to me 79 Pinto glass hatch ESS

Started by russosborne, April 01, 2018, 01:43:15 AM

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russosborne

How to install a 351W and C6 trans in a 79 Pinto? ???
That is going to be something I will have to figure out, as I bought the 89 engine/trans.  ;D
And it is definitely just a C6. darn it. The seller knew what he was talking about.  :o
Gas mileage, who needs gas mileage? :P

And I didn't get much done on my to do list. And I have to put the tires back on to move the car. Oh, well. I guess getting the engine makes up for some of it. :-[

ETA
I forgot to mention the engine came with all accessories, computer, harnesses, etc. Even an AC compressor. And power steering, which I don't have. But I could use it for hydraulic assist brakes. HMMMMM.
I just ordered a cd version of the 1989 Truck Service Manual that covers this engine and transmission.
I am going to see if the E4OD trans will work and what I would have to do. Overdrive would be nice.
Still up in the air about the EFI vs carb. I'll probably try the EFI and if i get it working I'll keep it, but if I can't get it going then it goes. :-)

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Thanks.
Good idea, only I work evenings.
I've been procrastinating on learning to weld for way too many years. Just got to do it.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

1972 Wagon

Try checking your local school system's vocational-technical center (Ours has been rebranded as a "Technical College." Same place. Same courses.). Ours offers welding at night. If I remember, the fee was really reasonable- maybe a few hundred bucks. Plus, you get to use their equipment. A lot of people that I taught with would periodically enroll so that they could build custom grills, modify stock trailers, etc. Since you are not interested in obtaining a welding certificate, you wouldn't have to worry about attending every class. There is usually a fall schedule and then another in January. Just a suggestion.
*The Original Family Car: A 1972 Pinto Wagon*
Ordered by my folks from Bunnell Motor Company, Inc., Bunnell, Florida
Delivered: June 20, 1972
Entrusted to my care: August 1976

russosborne

Working on trying to find out the bell dimensions of the small block C6. Not so easy, all the stuff I have found online omits the bell dimensions.

Anyway, I thought of a couple of things that might be important especially with this swap if I do it.

I will not be using the stock heat/ac stuff. Vintage Air has an underdash setup that looks like it would be better in my case.

I am pretty convinced that I will have to modify the firewall and trans tunnel a bit. I am just going to have to learn to weld. There is a welding supply place that gives lessons, like $75 an hour. I might even have to take a vacation day to do it since they only do it one day a week. But it will be worth it. There is so much I am trying to work around that welding would be the best and easiest way to go.

Right now my stamina isn't great. I need to work at that. I'm not dreading working on this, so that should really help. I need to keep making to do lists and sticking to them, even if they take longer to complete than I had thought. Skipping around from one thing to another isn't the way to do something like this. Stick to the plan, Russ!

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Well, the brake deal isn't happening so I am going to look at the engine and trans tomorrow afternoon. Seller is willing to bring it here if I buy it.
Hopefully my used hoist works, I tried it today with just my weight and it held. Need to get some bolts for the legs, can't find the ones I bought for it when I first got it. Concern right now is getting it out of the seller's truck. Not close to being ready to set it in the Pinto.

Oh, I might have to take a step backwards, and put the tires back on. If I get this engine I will have to move the Pinto so I can put the engine in back. Good thing I didn't take the front suspension apart yet.

In between excited and dreading. This is probably the best deal I will get, just wish it had overdrive. A GearVendors unit for the C4/C6 is about $3k. But for now this might be the best way to go. Get the car on the road, see just how bad the mileage is with the C6, save up for a built 5 speed.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Thanks.
I need to start resisting better.  :-[

I am seriously considering this
https://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/pts/6686246706.html
It isn't the trans I want, it's a C6. The seller does have the computer as part of the deal. It isn't a Cleveland, but one in this condition would be out of my budget for now. Not sure about using the EFI. I don't think this trans would be computer controlled, so a carb would be simple. But then again EFI IS nice to have when it is working.
It would be the smaller bellhousing for the Windsor engines (also the Cleveland).
Possibility it could be the E40D. Trying to search, there is a transition period around 1989-1990 where both were used.

I committed to spending $450 or so this week on brake rotors for the Ranchero(1972 Thunderbird one year only rotors that swap onto Torinos and Rancheros for a large disk upgrade), but Napa might not have them anymore. I have to call them tomorrow to see if they do. If not, I think I can manage the engine/trans. I do have to rent something to haul it home with. Doubt it would all fit in the Subaru.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dga57

Quote from: russosborne on October 28, 2018, 09:22:14 PM



Oh, they have a sale going that ends today, which I never noticed before. $25 off any order over $250. So I bought something else on my wish list, and ended up spending less than the sales price of the harness for both items. Yay, me.



I can never resist a good bargain!  Congrats!

Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

russosborne

I know, when am I going to shut up?

a few thoughts on Pinto things.

I finally got the interior pretty empty. Both sides have metal sheets riveted to them around the seat area. I think he was trying to cover up the subframes, but I won't know for sure until I take the stuff off.

The roll cage isn't going to interfere with the seats unless I went with really wide ones. However, the mounting may be an issue. Looks like he made some brackets to bolt seats in, again won't know for sure until I get the metal sheets off.

Roll cage is definitely going to interfere with the dash, but I will just have to notch the dash or something. But I pretty much knew that already. Fiberglass or aluminum would be so much easier to handle since I am doing this alone. But I'll figure something out.

Rear hatch area is not as cluttered as I was thinking once I got it emptied. The cage has NO cross bracing on the bars from the hoop to the rear of the car. Right now that will make it really easy to work back there. Not sure about long term.

Need to cut out the spare tire well. And that means making a new floor. I can't quite remove the entire floor due to the cage. Which is fine. I will probably just cut out a square section around the spare tire well. I need to figure out the best mounting for the fuel cell. Going to mount the battery inside the hatch area, bought a new Summit sealed box/trunk mount kit. Plus I will be using an AGM battery, so no worries about fumes. Got a Bosch one in the Subaru this summer, not a bad price. Cheaper than an Optima.

I can't use the battery/storage box I built for the 74 in this car. The cage just makes it impossible. Not sure what to do, might make a smaller version for speakers/tool storage. Something to think about, not a big worry. Just would have been nice to use it.

Hoping to get the brakes/suspension off tomorrow. Really give my Goodyear 24v cordless impact wrench a good workout. Probably just throw it in the back of the 74 for now. Our storage locker is FULL.

And under the "he's not very observant" heading, I had thought the rear bumper was already in storage. Nope, it is still mounted on the car.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

hmm, I thought I had posted earlier today, guess it didn't make it.

I got the Pinto up on jackstands after finally finding 4 of the ones I have.
Got the wheels/tires off and listed for sale here and CL.

And then, maybe because I got up at noon, which I never do even on a workday, I did something I swore I would never do.
I bought a Painless wiring harness. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/prf-10102/overview/
I was looking at their fuse boxes, and saw the prices. Then I saw this harness on sale for not much more. Even though I will be heavily modifying the harness, I figured it would be better/easier than working with the almost 40 year old Pinto harness.

Oh, they have a sale going that ends today, which I never noticed before. $25 off any order over $250. So I bought something else on my wish list, and ended up spending less than the sales price of the harness for both items. Yay, me.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

I actually got something on my list done today.
I got the fenders off and in storage.
I was almost right, there were 3 bolts, but also some rivets I had forgotten about. So it took 2.25 hours, including a trip to PepBoys to get a set of drill bits.

I know people have put a 302 and even a 351 into these with the fender aprons, but it sure looks small even without the aprons and radiator support. The trans bellhousing should be fun.

A few pictures of what it is right now.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

I can be a real idiot.
Ok, you all don't have to agree so loudly.  ::)

I was looking at the VFN fiberglass site and they have a dash for the 70-75 Pinto, but no pictures.

So I've been looking all over for pictures to see the differences between that and a 79. I will have to cut up the stock dash, both to mount it and to add gauges. I'd rather cut up a fiberglass one. If I can figure out how to add the vin plate without it looking like I did. Thinking since that part is separate from the actual dash I should be able to cut and paste.

Well, I HAVE a 74 and a 79 dash. I just have to go look at them.
Sheesh. :-[
Sometimes I really wonder about myself. :-\

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

well, the things you find when playing on the internet.
I was looking for the 8 inch MII 5 lug axles and I think I have found them.
Place called Dutchman Axles.
They list axles for the stock 4 lug, but they offer a custom option for the bolt pattern, so I ordered the 5x4.5.
Should be getting a call later today from them, as you can't pay online.
Not real cheap, but better in my mind than trying to have the old ones welded/redrilled.
https://dutchmanaxles.com/
and here is the link to their chart of part numbers and sizes.
https://dutchmanaxles.com/images/sr-pob/SR-POB-Ford-Car.pdf
SR#182 is the one for the Pinto/MII 8inch rear. Like I said, stock is 4 lug, but you can customize it.
They do also list axles for the 6.75 rears.
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Now I am not sure I want to use my fuel cell.
Found out (I guess I forgot since I bought it on Ebay 3 or 4 years ago) that it is a Speedmaster79 part. Found some horrible reviews online for their stuff, although nothing about the fuel cells. While I am thinking the tank is either good or bad out of the box, it came with a sending unit that I am now wondering about, as well as the -10 AN fittings since I read about leaks with their fittings in general.

This  is the one, although I want to make it clear I did NOT buy it from Speedway. Bought it from the company direct I believe thru Ebay.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedmaster-1-130-011-Aluminum-Fuel-Cell-15-Gallon,323455.html

First world problems.   ::)

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

I know people mean well, but, well enough about that.
Not going to let it run me off again.

On to bigger and worse (sort of ) things. The link I posted a couple of posts ago has a bunch of pictures of the Pinto from views I haven't really seen yet.
Turns out one of them shows how the rack is mounted, which is totally not stock. Looks like I wasted about $25 or so on the rack poly bushings and bolts. OOPS. For some reason I was thinking that rack was the same size as stock, but a better ratio. Guess I can always use them on the 74 if/when I get to that car.

I've got to go save all those pictures on my computer in case someone decides to get rid of them.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dga57

Quote from: russosborne on October 23, 2018, 11:14:31 PM
Uh, thanks, I suppose.

Ranchero is NOT going away. It is just on hold. Believe me, I would love to take the engine from it, but that isn't going to happen unless I totally ruin the body when I try to replace the floors. I've committed to my wife and myself that I will get it on the road again.

Mustang IS going away. I'm calling a scrapper within the next week, probably next Monday. Trying to decide if there is anything off of it I really want that would be reasonable to take off. Maybe the front wiring harness. Maybe the fuse box. Console is about 75% off, so probably that. Thought I had someone local who strips and sells the parts of Fox's interested, but he isn't really interested in it without the title and I don't care enough to try to deal with that for $100. Spending a day hauling it to the MVD and dealing with THOSE people would take a whole lot more than that. If I get any money on top of it great, but I am not counting on it.

The 74, it is not bothering anybody where it is, so until the Ranchero is moveable I'm not even thinking about it. Once I can get to it to move, it most likely will go away, but not 100% sure.

I've committed to my wife to get the  79 on the road by the end of March, unless something major (health, big expense with Subaru, etc) happens. And the Ranchero by the end of 2019. Ranchero would actually be quicker than the 79, but due to locations the 79 is the one to work on first.

No one is obligated to read my posts. They are mostly for me to use, mainly my thinking out loud with written documentation so I can reference it later. If anyone else gets anything good/enjoyable out of them great. That's all I am going to say about that subject.

Yes, I am home from work sick. Can you tell? :-)

Russ

Russ,

Glad to see you're not letting the disparaging remarks of anyone get to you.  You've dealt with more obstacles health-wise and employment-wise than anyone should ever have to.  Hang in there!  Hope you'll be feeling better soon too!

Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

russosborne

Oh, my,  :-X
I was searching on 79 Pinto ESS, and you won't believe what I found. :o
http://topclassiccarsforsale.com/ford/331828-79-ford-pinto-ess-drag-car-roller.html
This is MY car! 8)
I know the seller said he had tried a few different sites to sell it, but I never thought I would come across one. ;D
Wish it still showed the price he was asking at the time, I wonder just how far he had to come down from what he originally wanted.
Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Came up with this list earlier. I think it is all doable over a 5 day weekend, even for me.

things to do with the pinto last weekend of October 2018.

Run air hose out front, gather up air tools.

Put on 4 jackstands.

pull front fenders off (about 3 bolts each I think. Barely on.)

pull tires off.

pull front suspension/brakes off.

scuff/sand front frame, cage, and firewall.

paint front frame, cage, firewall, and new suspension parts.

install new front suspension.

install new poly bushings and hardware for rack and pinion.

install new front brakes (whenever they get here, might not happen in time. On backorder at Speedway).

empty interior of last loose stuff.

take a good look at interior and floor. especially cage and subrame connectors.

If any time/energy left see how much work to install stock dash around cage. Also grab one of the old Pinto seats and see if it will fit with the cage. Also measure front cage uprights in very front to see how much room for a radiator. Oh, use calipers to measure cage diameter.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Uh, thanks, I suppose.

Ranchero is NOT going away. It is just on hold. Believe me, I would love to take the engine from it, but that isn't going to happen unless I totally ruin the body when I try to replace the floors. I've committed to my wife and myself that I will get it on the road again.

Mustang IS going away. I'm calling a scrapper within the next week, probably next Monday. Trying to decide if there is anything off of it I really want that would be reasonable to take off. Maybe the front wiring harness. Maybe the fuse box. Console is about 75% off, so probably that. Thought I had someone local who strips and sells the parts of Fox's interested, but he isn't really interested in it without the title and I don't care enough to try to deal with that for $100. Spending a day hauling it to the MVD and dealing with THOSE people would take a whole lot more than that. If I get any money on top of it great, but I am not counting on it.

The 74, it is not bothering anybody where it is, so until the Ranchero is moveable I'm not even thinking about it. Once I can get to it to move, it most likely will go away, but not 100% sure.

I've committed to my wife to get the  79 on the road by the end of March, unless something major (health, big expense with Subaru, etc) happens. And the Ranchero by the end of 2019. Ranchero would actually be quicker than the 79, but due to locations the 79 is the one to work on first.

No one is obligated to read my posts. They are mostly for me to use, mainly my thinking out loud with written documentation so I can reference it later. If anyone else gets anything good/enjoyable out of them great. That's all I am going to say about that subject.

Yes, I am home from work sick. Can you tell? :-)

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

Wittsend

Quote from: russosborne on October 21, 2018, 06:04:22 AM
I came to a realization tonight while I was working just under 10 hours of overtime.

Why do I want to put an engine in this car that I really don't want? It was because of money, but that isn't really an issue right now. I mean I can't go buy a crate engine or anything, but I can buy a decent used 302/5.0 or a 351W. A Cleveland could even be doable but only if I got really lucky.
Like I said recently, I am taking the 29-31 off to work on pulling the Mustang engine and stuff. I don't really want to do that. I'd much rather spend the time painting the cage and frame bits, putting the brand new suspension on it, stuff like that. To repeat myself, I don't need to cheap out with a 4banger anymore just because I happen to have one sitting here. It isn't what I ultimately want for this car so why do it since I don't HAVE to anymore.
To be really blunt, I am tired of taking stuff apart. I want to put something together. Taking the Mustang apart would totally drain me and I would likely lose interest again, at least for a while. Not worth it.

I worked just over 20 hours of OT this week alone. My after tax take home for just that will be close to $500. I could do that every week if I wanted to (which I don't, but the work is there). I've been averaging around 13-15 hours a week without Saturdays.
I might as well take advantage of the money while I can and do this car totally the way I want it done.

Sorry if I babbled, but I honestly am very tired.

If anyone near Phoenix wants an 89 Mustang with title issues for a parts or drag car let me know. I'm going to scrap it for whatever I get in the next week or so, so I would give it to someone here who could use it.

Thanks,
Russ

Russell, I'll be really blunt too. It gets tiring for me (and I'd assume others) to hear of "your one step forward, two step backwards" progress over the years. It gets discouraging and it isn't even my situation to deal with. So, I offer this with the best of intentions to see you move forward. You have your Pinto that came apart and never went back together. You have the Ranchero that came apart and never went back together. You have the Mustang that while still in one piece is festooned with issues. They are "dreams" that have become "nightmares." It happens to all of us. Not only do these vehicles rob you of your time and money but they hound you with potential fines because of the property condition.

Free yourself of these burdens. My advice is to rid yourself of these "ball and chains" even if you take a lose (and even in the best case likely would anyway). If there is anything of REAL value in a part remove it and have the junk yard come and haul those carcasses away. You have the health, time and money to take on ONE car - maybe. If you are considering a V-8 then why not the engine/trans from the Ranchero? No cost involved there. No sourcing the engine, you already own it. OK, maybe not a 5-Speed - yet. But get the new Pinto car running and THEN make the changes. It is not like it is going to cost you thousands to use the automatic temporarily.

There are only so many days God gives us on this rotating rock. Don't let the ensnarement of never to be realized dreams hold you captive.

russosborne

Thanks.
I was reading about the V8 swap here last night and started having some serious doubts about it.
But I think I am over those now. Worst case I use a motor plate. Depends on what engine I end up going with.
Someone is selling a good running 289 for $700, but no accessories. It would be a possibility. But I would like to get an engine and transmission combo if possible. 5 speed only.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dga57

Besides motivation and skill, money is often the biggest factor in any project car.  It's definitely nice when you don't have to "settle" for something just because it's affordable.  As long as it can be done without breaking the bank, it makes perfect sense to get the engine you want so you won't find yourself doing the engine swap all over again later.  Good to see you excited about it! 


Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

russosborne

I came to a realization tonight while I was working just under 10 hours of overtime.

Why do I want to put an engine in this car that I really don't want? It was because of money, but that isn't really an issue right now. I mean I can't go buy a crate engine or anything, but I can buy a decent used 302/5.0 or a 351W. A Cleveland could even be doable but only if I got really lucky.
Like I said recently, I am taking the 29-31 off to work on pulling the Mustang engine and stuff. I don't really want to do that. I'd much rather spend the time painting the cage and frame bits, putting the brand new suspension on it, stuff like that. To repeat myself, I don't need to cheap out with a 4banger anymore just because I happen to have one sitting here. It isn't what I ultimately want for this car so why do it since I don't HAVE to anymore.
To be really blunt, I am tired of taking stuff apart. I want to put something together. Taking the Mustang apart would totally drain me and I would likely lose interest again, at least for a while. Not worth it.

I worked just over 20 hours of OT this week alone. My after tax take home for just that will be close to $500. I could do that every week if I wanted to (which I don't, but the work is there). I've been averaging around 13-15 hours a week without Saturdays.
I might as well take advantage of the money while I can and do this car totally the way I want it done.

Sorry if I babbled, but I honestly am very tired.

If anyone near Phoenix wants an 89 Mustang with title issues for a parts or drag car let me know. I'm going to scrap it for whatever I get in the next week or so, so I would give it to someone here who could use it.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

I was cruising CL and found some wheels that would work, at least for now.
Weld Racing Prostars. They are only 15x7, but at the price ($180 for 4) it would be a good deal for now.
But of course we don't have that to spend right now. Already spent more than we should have, we forgot that this paycheck has to last through 3 weekends.
My next check will have over 30 hours of OT, so if the seller still has them at the end of the month I might get them. They aren't what I really want, but  I have always liked them.
If not, c'est la vie.
Yes, I took 2 years of French in high school. I remember how to ask where are the hookers.  ::)
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

I am a bad boy.
I managed to get a Summit Racing credit card.
I had to try it out, so I ordered poly rack and pinion bushings, new stock replacement Moog coil springs, and front KYB gas adjust shocks. Figured I might as well just get new. I'll probably get rear shocks later, but for now the front is my focus.
I want to order the wheels, but I am going to wait to see what I can find used locally first.
Waiting on an answer from VHT paint. They have a chassis and roll bar epoxy paint, and an Epoxy paint. The Epoxy paint is what I used on the Ranchero parts (I know this because one of the colors is white for this one but not the other) but I asked them what is the difference between the two as their website shows them being the same. About $8-9 a can, so I want to get whichever is better for this.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Thanks.
I'm getting nervous, it is just about put up or shut up time. ???
I just ordered the front disk brake kit.  ;D
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Mustang-II-Complete-11-Inch-Brake-Kit-Ford-5-x-4-1-2-Bolt-Pattern,2008.html
that's pretty much all until the end of the month. I am going to buy a couple of cans of the paint for the chassis/suspension so I can start that.
There are a couple of swap meets in November I want to go to, one the semi regular (about 9 months a year) one about a mile and a half from the house the first Sunday of the month, and then Goodguys is coming next month also. My next check will have 3 weeks of OT on it, so hopefully I will have a good bit. Need to max out the OT next week. Don't remember if the Goodguys one is before or after Nov 15.

At least it has finally cooled off here. Hoping no more 100 degree days. But there always seems to be a few before Halloween. :P

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dga57

It sounds like you have a plan and it's about to start coming together!  Can't wait to see the end result!


Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

russosborne

Well, I waffled a bit on doing the 5 lug conversion. Especially since I have some decent rims/tires I bought for the 89. So I decided to look to see how much it would cost to replace the stock brake stuff. Talking everything-rotors, calipers, lines, etc. Turns out the 5lug 11 inch Speedway kit is pretty darn close. So I am done waffling and will stick with the plan for 5 lug.
Speaking of brakes, I found out that the Crown Vic rear disc conversion will work on the MII/Pinto 8 inch. And I already have it. Might need a few new pieces like pads and lines, but I have the whole thing I bought for the Ranchero and haven't done yet, including the spacers needed. https://www.ebay.com/itm/372132827870?ul_noapp=true
I double checked with Steve (the seller). I'm still going to do the brakes on the Ranchero at some point, but I will just have to get more parts.

Seats. I have been looking at all sorts of aftermarket seats. Then it hits me. One of the things I always liked about Pintos was the highback bucket seats. And I have a pair. If the frames are still usable. For the cost of new seats that most likely won't fit me, I can have the 74 Pinto seats rebuilt. Problem is I don't know what color to go with since I am not sure what the color of the car will be. I am thinking yellow like my high school 69 Mustang. So basic black would probably be a safe bet. Not sure, have a month or two to think about it. I do need to double check that even those seats will still fit with the cage. There is a small voice in my head saying that I am going to get this car done and not be able to get in it. That would be hilariously bad.

Wheels/rims. I really want the old Centerlines (solid, pretty much the original design they started with). Those are what I want on pretty much any car. Have to start hitting swap meets I guess. American Racing makes a clone of them https://www.summitracing.com/parts/are-ar615765/overview/  not sure if this is the size I want, (definitely 15s though) that would work if I have to buy new. Was hoping to get a good deal on some used ones though. But pricing has gone up since the last time I bought any. But still, I haven't been to the swap meet lately, maybe I'll find some there.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Been trying to decide whether to use the fuel cell I had bought for the 74 or try to convert the 89 Mustang tank. Went looking for the specs on the cell, ended up having to reread my 74 wagon thread. I did find the link to the cell, finally, but got some good ideas from what I had been doing to that car.
I think I am going to take the "battery box" storage thing I built from the wagon and put it in this. Might have to do some modifying to fit around the cage. Or I can just build a new one, as I forgot I had bought a bunch of angle steel that is just laying around. I will though definitely use the trunk mount battery box and cables from the wagon, I had forgotten it was NHRA approved for mounting in the passenger compartment. If it hasn't rotted away, been in the wagon this whole time.
I had thought I was going to mount the battery under the car on the 79 with the fuel cell, but I think I would be happier with it not being exposed down there. I am going to do the fuel cell, be easier than trying to fit the fox body tank. Looks like it shouldn't be too hard to tie it into the fuel filler on the body. Which I am thinking about modding with the Mustang fuel door, looks so much cleaner than having a fuel cap showing. Just have to decide if I want to cut up the Mustang. Might be harder  to get rid of that way.

I kind of needed to reread that thread. I did some good things, and I tend to forget I am capable of doing good work. Although there are a couple of people I wish I could still talk to that were part of it. :( :'(

The plan right now is that I am hoping to take the last 3 days off this month so I can have the weekend and Mon, Tue, and Wed to get the Mustang stripped and get started on the 79. I've pretty much committed to my wife to have it driving and licensed by the end of March. Or else she gets to spend a TON of money.  :o

I'm still waffling on EFI vs computer.  :-\ I have the EFI from the 89 with the computer and wiring, but it would be so much simpler to go carb. Both on stripping the Mustang and installing on the Pinto. I still have a Mallory electric fuel pump and cannister filter I had bought for the Lemans. Pump would need rebuilt, but Summit sells kits for them. Might be a TAD overkill for a 2.3 though. I will use them on the Ranchero if nothing else. If I was buying this already done with the option if it having EFI or a carb already installed and done, I would go EFI without a doubt. So that should make my decision, but not sure.

I need to spend some time and energy getting the Pinto ready. I need to measure to see what seats will fit, I am thinking the cage will change that quite a bit from stock.  I'd like to have the front frame painted before I pull the engine from the Mustang  so I can just roll the hoist over and drop it in at the same time. I MIGHT be able to do that much before the end of the month.  :-[

Should be ordering the Summit 11 inch brake kit this next payday. I still have to find the upper control arms I bought way back when, then I can attack the front suspension/brakes. Thought about doing a bolt on coil over, but found out it won't work with the lower control arms I just got without major surgery. So for now I will just get new coils and probably shocks. It'll all be brand new.
I am going to have to get 5 lug wheels, and get the rear axles redone for 5 lug. I almost want to skip that, but I need all new brakes anyway, and I really do want the bigger brakes up front. The 8 inch doesn't have traclok, but for a 2.3 I guess I don't have to worry too much about that. I do have the other 8 inch I bought for the wagon, thinking I should just take the axles from it and have them redone to 5 lug and new bearings, and just swap out the axles for no real down time. But that is almost  like planning ahead.  ::) ;D

OOPS, time to go do laundry and kill monsters.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

russosborne

Yeah, the rate my retirement fund is going I will be working until they bury me.

Starting to get really psyched. Got the Speedway tubular lower control arms today. Need to paint them. If they didn't come with the bushings already installed I would thing about powder coating, but not worth the hassle. I can do spray can paint pretty well. Need to get some more of the VHT epoxy I used on the Ranchero. Stuff seems pretty good. Not a great color selection, but all I need is semi gloss black. Or even gloss. I'm not that picky.

It's been in the 80's this week thanks to Hurricane Rosa but will heat up again before it finally cools down for good. (well, until March). I need to see what vacation I have left and schedule a day or two for working on the car. Mainly getting the Mustang stripped, but hoping to be able to get a bit more done. Working 11-12 hour days most days of the work week isn't leaving me the time or the energy to do much except the essentials on my time off. But it is paying for all this stuff. So a fair trade.

Thanks,
Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.

dga57

Don't allow yourself to get spooked by thought like that, Russ!  In ten years, I'll be looking at turning 72 on my next birthday and it doesn't bother me a bit... I'm just hoping to make it that far.  My only sibling died at 53 and neither of my parents made it out of their 70's, although my grandparents on both sides lived well into their eighties and nineties!  For now, I feel good with no known health problems so I feel decent about my chances.  My plan is to continue working at least until 70 and, if my health does hold out, maybe a few more years after that.  If I stay in my job until age 73, I will have 50 years service in and that's a milestone I'd kind of like to reach.  We'll just have to wait and see.  My workplace is good about retaining older employees; we have one full-time employee who just turned 82 and has no plans to retire.  He's just like the Energizer Bunny: he keeps going and going and going.


Dwayne :)
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.