Mini Classifieds

Cruiser Dash Gauges
Date: 12/04/2016 11:50 am
4 speed pinto transmission

Date: 05/13/2021 05:29 pm
Wanted 1971-73 pinto 2.0 4 speed manual transmission
Date: 03/06/2019 06:40 pm
1972 pinto grill
Date: 02/27/2018 12:13 am
1980 Pinto for sale

Date: 11/24/2016 06:32 pm
WANTED: Skinny Rear Bumper w/o guards for '71 or '72 Pinto Coupe
Date: 04/24/2018 11:45 am
73 Caliper Retaining Key
Date: 10/28/2021 07:49 am
2.3 carb intake

Date: 07/15/2020 09:25 pm
Pinto for sale

Date: 04/19/2017 10:15 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
  • Total Members: 7,895
  • Latest: tdok
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,581
  • Total Topics: 16,270
  • Online today: 1,166
  • Online ever: 3,214 (June 20, 2025, 10:48:59 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 122
  • Total: 122
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

t5 questions!

Started by 82expghost, June 09, 2016, 12:07:13 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: Wittsend on June 10, 2016, 11:07:57 PM
Even in the case of my Tiger I have a 5 bolt 289. It has the vertically oriented bolt pattern (trans to bellhousing). So, I either pay $ bucks $ for a dual pattern scatter shield, or get myself a 6 bolt block (like a 302 / roller).

If you had the engine out for a 6-bolt block swap, might as well do a 331 or 347 so you have the torque to pull that 2.32 first gear.  ;)

My T5 has the steepest first gear of all of them; 4.06. It was originally intended to help a small engine get a large and very heavy Thunderbird moving. In a sub-2600lb Pinto, taking off with the 2.35 2nd with 3.55 gears is easy.

Quote from: Reeves1 on June 11, 2016, 08:09:31 AM
Was reading a topic not long ago of a guy building T-5s to withstand up to 600 HP.
Not sure bout that.....seems the case would be the weak point ?

Astro builds insanely-rated aftermarket T5s, but I can't figure out how the cases hold together either. They seem to have a pretty decent reputation considering most of their products are treated rather harshly. G-Force is another attached to high-zoot T5s.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Reeves1

I've seen pictures of that (Mustang type) set up for a clutch.

All I've ever done was use the OEM cable & a new clutch fork (part numbers in shop).
I cut the small section out of the Pinto arm & weld into the new arm - for the smaller ball on the clutch cable.
Never had a problem.

Clutch is a Center Force - easy on the peddle / cable & holds very well.

Wittsend

I re-read this this morning. One thing we have not commented on was the "hydro clutch" (specifically). For years when the subject came up I had assumed people were talking about the hydraulic clutch in the 87-88 Turbo Coupes.  That was an odd arrangement were the clutch master cylinder sat at a downward angle under the dash, not in the engine compartment.  I pondered that for a few minutes but it seemed a ridiculous task to install in the tighter confines of the Pinto - and thus I would always advise against it. The concept of finding space for a master clutch cylinder under the hood seemed unlikely, at least on an early car.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but is there more firewall side space in a 74 and up cars?  Someone a while back posted a master clutch cylinder under the hood of a Pinto and basically proved me wrong.  That all said, when I adapted my '88 TC T-5 into my 73 Pinto I used an '85 TC bell crank/cable setup and all went well.  The bell crank is interesting because if you relocate the cable attachment points you can alter the pedal feel and engagement speed. I left mine stock and will say this, if you want to teach someone to drive a manual trans it is the arrangement to use. The clutch engagement is very linear, over a considerable distance of travel.  Ideal for quick shifting - maybe not.

Reeves1

Was reading a topic not long ago of a guy building T-5s to withstand up to 600 HP.
Not sure bout that.....seems the case would be the weak point ?

74 PintoWagon

Anytime you try to adapt something to anything it wasn't meant for you can always expect obstacles, that goes for anything no matter what it is..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Wittsend

Something else I'd like to mention. I've been considering a T-5 for my Sunbeam Tiger since I got it. Still on jackstands after 16 years it is more concept than "ready to do."  But since I'm hoping to finally get back to it later this summer I've been scouting out the T-5 with greater interest.  As most know I'm a "Pick Your Part" kind of guy. At their 40% off sales I can get a T-5 out the door for right around $100.  And, that would be the only route I'd go to get one.

So, what I've found is if you want the 3.35 first gear, like the original poster mentioned, and World Class version at that there is only a 10 year range (85-95) they were available. And, that means that they are all 20-30 years old.  You don't get a 300 ft. lb. trans until the last 5 years (90-95) and many of those available are the 265 ft. lb. rated 3.8 V-6 transmissions in 94-95.  Lastly none will directly bolt to the 2.3 as the input shaft is different. If you want a direct bolt in T-5 for a 2.3, then you need a 2.3 T-5.

Even in the case of my Tiger I have a 5 bolt 289. It has the vertically oriented bolt pattern (trans to bellhousing). So, I either pay $ bucks $ for a dual pattern scatter shield, or get myself a 6 bolt block (like a 302 / roller).

I said all that to say this, the T-5 is often lauded as a universal trans with  a lengthy pedigree and adapted to many unique situations.  But, even in the Ford domain where it was liberally used there are a plethora of "yea..., but's"  that need to be overcome. In the end the cost to adapt the transmission may not return the time and cost invested.

With my Turbo pinto the factory '88 2.3 t-5 is manageable. The engine is other wise stock and the transmission within the range of the build. With my Tiger the real problem is a 2.32 first gear on the close ratio trans. The wide ratio Toploader is 2.78 and far more ideal.  One other option is a Jeep Toploader, the T-178 that had a 3.01 first gear and even spacing. But that transmission has proven to be extremely elusive since most Jeeps had the granny gear 176 & 177's. To add to my insanity I have a 63 Rambler American I want to adopt a Jeep 4.0 into. That engine had a zillion transmissions hung behind it.  But, in almost ever case there is a "yea, but" that kind of negates an upgrade that would be reasonable to accomplish.  And, yes, a T-5 is one option "BUT..."

Sorry to rain on the parade but there are storm clouds on the other side of that there hill (so to speak).

74 PintoWagon

Good info on the T5 there..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Wittsend

Most of the Ford installed T-5's were only rated at 265 to 310 Ft. Lb.  You have to get up to the aftermarket trans and even there they just go to 325 Ft. Lb.

This is the source: http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/349.shtml

82expghost

Quote from: D.R.Ball on June 09, 2016, 06:48:54 PM
No T-5 bell housing are engine specific IE a 2.3 will not fit on a V-6 etc. Also the 2.3 T-5 has a different input shaft than the V-8 etc. As for the clutch fork it fits just fine what some people are doing is changing the dog bone cable to a bolt system. Check with turboford.org for more info. You do know that in the U.K. shop have the rebuild kits to make the T-9 handle the boost...Just to let you know.
The kits for the type 9 only go to maybe 350hp from what I found, and they are expensive

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: 82expghost on June 09, 2016, 07:37:21 AM
also it's difficult to find what cars with t5s came with the clutch fork like our stock trans, because I have seen a few that are that spring loaded bar

That is perhaps because none did. Well, none behind a 2.3 anyway. There is a mix 'n' match way to put a 2.3 bell on a T5 with a direct-pull cable and fork, but I don't recall which parts are needed. There is thread on here if you search for it.

There is also an adapter plate available that allows for putting an entire V8 T5 behind a 2.3. It uses a modified V8 flywheel and a 10.5" clutch and may or may not present fitment problems in a Pinto tunnel.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

D.R.Ball

No T-5 bell housing are engine specific IE a 2.3 will not fit on a V-6 etc. Also the 2.3 T-5 has a different input shaft than the V-8 etc. As for the clutch fork it fits just fine what some people are doing is changing the dog bone cable to a bolt system. Check with turboford.org for more info. You do know that in the U.K. shop have the rebuild kits to make the T-9 handle the boost...Just to let you know.

82expghost

I was looking at the v6 t5 as it's 1st is about 3:37, also it's difficult to find what cars with t5s came with the clutch fork like our stock trans, because I have seen a few that are that spring loaded bar, and also, are all t5 bells interchangeable?

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

Wittsend

Just Google "T5 transmission" and there is a plethora of sites to tell you everything you want to know.  For the record the 2.3 version of the T5 has a different input shaft length than other T5's. And, it's first gear is right about 4.00.

82expghost

Im currently running a t9 transmission, in the glory of boost, it decided that it no longer liked 3rd gear and spit it out, so now 3rd grinds a little, and 4th and 5th now whine, so I guess its time to go t5

my question is, best input shaft? what gear ratios do some cars have? I have no clue what direction I need to start, I do know that it does not need to be cable, I can do a hydro clutch

and I would like a gear ratio close to what a t9 is, I love the even spaced apart ratios

info t9 ratios
1st-  3:36
2nd- 1:81
3rd- 1:26
4th- 1:00
5th-  :83
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily