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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jets size?

Started by slimbobaggins, January 28, 2015, 11:51:07 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

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amc49

The 1.08 should work fine, almost exact same flow as the 32/36.

dick1172762

Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

slimbobaggins

Well, most of the Toyota guys don't run the Weber 32/36, which is progressive, they run the Weber 38, which is synchronous.  Especially if they have mods done to the motor.  The Weber 38 is 390 cfm.  So my somewhat flawed reasoning is that an appropriately sized 2100 would do better than the 38.  Plus the 38 suffers the same issues the 32/36 does... Doesnt do well on inclines or off kilter

I grabbed a 1.08 2100 of Craigslist this past weekend for $20, couldn't pass it up.  Haven't rebuilt it yet.

Still running the stock carb, with the wot problem.  Going to put my brother in law's wideband on the truck to see what it's doing when it bogs, just haven't had a chance yet.

dick1172762

Quote from: jeremysdad on February 26, 2015, 12:53:39 AM
Way too big for a 4, way too small for an 8. The 2150 was perfect for the 250, no?
Not so! 1.08 carb is 287 CFM and almost the same size as the stock carb. Way smaller than the 350 and 500 Holley. Only difference is both barrels work together. Perfect size carb for a 2.3L.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

jeremysdad

Quote from: dick1172762 on January 29, 2015, 08:02:52 AM
Your not going to give away anything by using a 2100 (1.08) carb since they came on 260/289 Fords. They are plenty big for a 4 banger.

Way too big for a 4, way too small for an 8. The 2150 was perfect for the 250, no?

slimbobaggins

Great thanks, I'll get it apart this week to check the AP.  I have the timing set 5 degrees advanced from man. spec because it smoothed the idle out a bit more.

I had a helper watch the tailpipe when I punch the throttle, and didnt see any black smoke when it bogs.

amc49

EGR could very easily be a problem there, glad you went there many won't.

Rich at wide open throttle enough to bog the motor should be showing some black smoke out of pipe, if stock or close jets and otherwise parts then commonly lean rather than rich. Fuel injection can easily run rich from too much fuel pressure but carb not so easy. High fuel level in bowl could but would affect idle as well. Make sure initial timing is up to par, slow timing can kill hard rollon throttle too. Check accelerator pump for working with air cleaner off, the slightest small movement of throttle should be squirting some fuel out of the nozzle(s), more throttle=more fuel. Accelerator pump provides the fuel while the carb boosters are coming on line, you get an instant hole in fuel delivery for a second with a sudden stomp on the gas, air (lighter in weight) moves faster than fuel can and you need a short time bump in fuel delivery to cover that bog hole up. Lean indicator is the bog gets worse the harder and lower in rpm you stomp on the gas.

slimbobaggins

Sorry for the late response, have been MIA due to work being really busy and being out of town.

Before I say what the stock carb was or wasn't doing, I should update with current status.  I still wasn't convinced the problem was 100% carb still anyways, so I pulled the carb and EGR system back off; found the EGR valve would stick sometimes and wasn't 100% sealed anyways when closed.  I blanked the EGR off with a homemade plate stuck between the valve and head, and the engine is idling pretty decent now, and seems to drive part throttle alright.  So it seems the unpredictable part throttle behavior was (hopefully) only an intermittent EGR vacuum leak.  This also explains why I kept searching for a vacuum leak I thought it had, but couldn't find it; ie, it was a "sealed" vacuum leak that I could detect with carb cleaner or ether.

So, with the part throttle more or less going alright right now, the next known issue is wide open throttle, which I know is a carb issue.  If I stop on the pedal, it bogs down really hard, and then pulls itself out of the bog.  If I cruise and just roll the throttle, it runs alright.

So, what I need to figure out is, is it going very lean, or very rich, when I stop on the pedal? Because from what I've read, both conditions will cause it to bog.  I'm not sure how to tell which it is.  I'm going to search on Car Craft's website and see if I can find some more carb tuning info.

I did not buy the Motorcraft 2100 I'd found on Craigslist, not yet anyways.  I'd really like to get this stocker running properly, if I can.

Thanks for all the help and any other suggestions you might have.  I'd have been banned from other forums by now for going so in-depth about an unrelated vehicle, but none of the "newer age" folk know anything about carbs, so I'm trying to find subject matter experts wherever I can, regardless of what forum it is.  :)

amc49

WHAT is the exact problem you have with the OEM carb? You mentioned different running when warm once....................

FYI, power valves don't change 'size' rather they change the vacuum rating at which they open/close like a valve. The actual metering restrictions they open to is usually right next to them in the carb body or metering block. Any actual holes or ports in valve are much bigger than the true restriction, you find that in carb stuff, the only hole that matters is the smallest one there, all others are intentionally too big to allow the small one be the metering hole.

amc49

Not that hard to simply follow the part teardown and adjustment that usually comes with a good carb rebuild kit. If that done and the thing still not running right then pretty obvious you have a plugup somewhere where it cannot be seen, it can be in fifty places depending on which carb and design. Some of those plugs can be like concrete and no amount of non-invasive low impact cleaning will clear them out. Ethanol laced fuel has only made that worse.

Very helpful to understand the ranges of different circuits and what they do, i.e., idle, cruising or light throttle and main system for max power, that can point you much closer to where the stopup has to be.

Don't feel out of the loop, you have indeed gone further as most ever want to. They frustrate real quick when the first real serious effort does not result in perfect running.

I emphasize using stock carb for one reason, the OEM will already be dialed in with all metering as good as any on the planet, the factory spent millions of dollars doing it. When you go for different carb you have appointed yourself the carb engineer because now YOU must sort all that out yourself and some of it is not sortable by the average guy on the street unless you already have a perfect running example by someone else who has sweated blood to get there. All that crap about 'it runs perfect' is mostly blather or self-inflating BS, I've found most have not a clue as to what a truly excellent running carb is like at all. Just being able to get on it and feeling 'all that 'power' means you have only done maybe 1/3 of the true work there, most will not sort out light load cruise whatsoever because they do not know how to do it. Ergo, the mileage is not up to par or the complaint 'it needs new plugs', the mark of that. And drilling holes in the carb to get what you need? They are unable to go there. I've done it for 30 years.

People get all these bright ideas about switching carbs from every imaginable source to put on other things, maybe 1/10 of that actually works out to be better than OEM, I used to show customer after customer that over and over again back in the days at the garage. The replacement carb is more often picked because it just happened to be available rather than by using any logic of whether it would truly work right or not.

Here's the thing and most certainly no insult intended or implied here...........................if one cannot get a dead stock carb on its' intended engine either running 100% correct or if not, then know the most definite reason why it won't then they will be ill equipped to be jumping into metering a brand new application that never has worked there before, unless like said before, they have a crystal clear example of someone who has been there before. The reality of the thing.

And yes, I have swapped more carbs than you can shake a stick at, some worked great, others were a disaster. Lots more to it than simply picking a size that works on other engines of same size and tune, every engine has different 'gulp' characteristics to demand worlds of difference in all those little bitty bleed holes that most do not even see as doing anything there. Nay nay good brother not so......................................

Take the average Rochester Quadrajet carb as used by GM in 500 applications. There were maybe literally that many jetting and other metering changes in every single one to tailor it to the specific engine it was used on, the aftermarket especially now that no one uses carbs anymore has knocked down those 500 carbs to at first maybe 200 and now with no sales probably 30 or so. You go and buy a supposedly 'exact' replacement carb that works on YOUR car engine now and what you get is a mishmash of parts that by far will not work as well as the original carb did. I certainly took back enough crap running carbs on warranty when at the parts store to verify that but knew it all along, why we preached at the garage, 'DON'T buy new, REBUILD it!'. Yes, cost was higher due to more work but virtually no trouble with comebacks at all there doing it. Changing the carb much more often resulted in customer complaints.

slimbobaggins

Wow... thanks for taking the time to type all that out.

I realize that part of the problem I've been having, understanding this stuff, is that I'm still thinking of fuel flow in terms of injectors, which of course have a static (more or less) pressure forcing out the fuel... and which doesn't make any sense for a carb.  After you pointed out the only pressure is the "lack of" and how it changes with engine size, I've got a better understanding now.

With regards to the microcracks and grasping straws, I do agree with you, but some of the behavior of the carb is inexplicable.  I did get my truck idling halfway decent tonight, so that's encouraging, and I'm not giving up on it yet, because I'd love to not spend anymore money on it.

That said, this is what I've done to my carb so far:

- Complete tear down, identify faulty components and replace w/ spare parts
- Spray off with carb cleaner and scrub all parts with brass brushes/ bore brushes/ clean holes and passages with carb wires
- Two hour soak all components in the gallon can of carb soak from parts store
- Minimum 30 minutes soak of all parts in heated ultrasonic cleaner with water/ simple green mixture
- Rinse all parts with distilled water
- Oven bake all parts to dry out
- Reassemble carb with fresh parts/ gaskets from GP Sorensen rebuild kit.

I think it's safe to say that I've gone way above the normal amount of effort trying to revive this thing.  It is possible that I could start drilling into it to clean stuff about, but I feel comfortable admitting that I'm not experienced enough and I have a small likelihood of succeeding at it.

amc49

'Am I misunderstanding this terminology?'

To a certain extent yes. Bigger engines are able to produce lower pressure drops because they suk (intentional misspell to get point across) harder because of engine size. Many other things can affect that too. You can make the entire jetting range change up or down by how big the air bleed to the main jet well is for example. Bigger the air bleed the more fuel you have to add to cover it. The bigger bleed kills pull from the venturi.

Holley relies on that bigger engine pulling more fuel by virtue of size alone as part of their mantra that their carbs automatically feed differently depending on what engine they are on, i.e., you need to change no jets at all say going from a SBC 350 to a BBC 454. Of course not 100% true and the reason why they sell jets to begin with.

Smaller engines cannot use as much carb size as bigger ones and why you have to commonly jet higher with smaller engine all other things being equal. All other things are never equal though. They used the 1.08 carb on 360 inch AMC as well (another 100 cubic inches) and low 40s jetting, the engine was severely undercarbed using that, I picked up as much as 40 hp. simply going to 4 bbl. intake and a 800 Holley DP and even on an ATX car. The car dropped into the solid 14.70s from 15.70s 1/4 mi. before with the 2 bbl. Just because the carb is jetted correctly on that app does not mean it 'works', earlier AMC used 550 cfm Carters on the 390 inch motors and like 60 hp. increase on them with an 850 DP. '60s 2 bbl. motors gave away scads of power to get economy and not that much economy gained doing it. 2 bbl. and 4 bbl. carbs not rated the same way, a 350 2 bbl. carb is only 250 cfm in 4 bbl. flow. So, the numbers off even worse than it looks by simply comparing the carb 'flow numbers'.

Think about if Mopar 340 six-pack engines (TA and AAR) could truly use all of the 1300 cfm the 3X2 setup could provide. No, of course they couldn't. You can easily put either way too small or way too large a carb on a car and still have it run reasonably well. Big leeway there.

These 2.3 Fords can use up to 350 cfm with a good running dead stock engine if you dump the crap OEM intake which chokes anything larger than 300 cfm.

An extreme example. Carbs flow based on set criteria, but real world they flow whatever the engine can put on them pressure drop wise. At one time Nascar had downdropped Hemi carb sizes down to 450 cfm in an effort to equalize competition, the Hemis then produced engine horsepower numbers showing that they were actually hugely ouflowing the carb ratings, they were pulling up to 900 cfm out of that poor 450. And still ran close to 200 mph. Biggest problem there was pulling fuel out so hard it was separating from air at the solid smack at the intake plenum floor. Distribution got worse as carb got smaller, usually that works in reverse.

So, the carb really flows what the engine can pull out of it. It is a highly variable amount.

That 'microcracks in the pot metal' is really grasping at straws there. I've rejected carbs for only a very few things..................solid heavy corrosion damage to affect fuel circuitry, dead worn out throttle shaft bores to leak air bad, or possible stopped up minute metering passages in casting to where they cannot be got to to be clean and open guaranteed. Even then you usually can recover one of those by drilling into carb like when it was made, fixing the plugged passage and then sealing passage again. I pulled dead carbs back to life many many times at the garage, people don't understand them and give up choosing to give away the 'bad' ones, of course there was nothing really wrong with them at all. Just needed a little work. With ethanol use you'd be amazed at the ones I have in use that are corroded all to hell but as long as the fuel passage integrity hasn't been compromised I still use them and they run fine.

The power valve restriction supplied fuel adds to the main jet fuel at heavy load, simply shrinking the power valve fuel using that will require bigger main to make up for it. Problem being, the bigger main then feeds too much off load to load up motor at cruise. Why the main jet size must be matched to power valve fuel, to provide proper high load fuel as well as clean lower rpm mixture. Why you NEVER block off a power valve, only the unlearned do that.

You never assume 100% VE of course. But no matter as the engine can often use more cfm than what simple calculation for the cubic inch size of engine says. My question would be this. With a vacuum gauge attached at that 6000 rpm, what vacuum are you showing? If higher than 1.0 Hg. then you are losing power that could be there with a bigger carb. Bigger carbs provide air in a denser amount, it makes more power. Why we could get away with 2600 cfm in 2X4 bbl. when calculation said engine only using say 1300 cfm. When figuring carb to engine size I always look for at least 30% bigger than the number says. If you want REAL economy then go LESS than the calculation shows, 1 bbls. often do that.


slimbobaggins

Quote from: amc49 on January 28, 2015, 11:00:19 PM
Changing the power valve only changes when it opens, you change the RESTRICTIONS which affects the jetting bigtime. No way you can really pick exact jetting, you have to play with it. And the jet range used by one engine can be vastly different on another even if same size, no two engine designs pull pressure drop exactly the same. Bigger engine has more pressure drop than smaller so you would go UP on jet as compared to jeep sixes. You go up on jet when engine does not 'zoop' as hard as another, just like when carb bore increases in size.

You'll play dickens with finding the progressive Holley 350, they quit making them long ago. They still make the standard 350 that opens both barrels at same time.

If not having much luck with stock carb then you may well have trouble with a different carb, all the work already done on the OEM one. I most certainly would not be giving away CFM if the engine can run on it.

I'm confused now by this ^.  Bare with me here, because this is (pretty much) my first carb'ed vehicle... I'm no stranger to engines, just have always messed with fuel injected ones.

I was under the (perhaps wrong) impression that the higher the Jet number, the more flow through the jet.  So bigger engines, requiring more fuel, would need larger jets, hence higher numbers.  So I though you'd be "jetting Up" for a larger displacement.  And if I take my carb off a bigger motor, I'd need less fuel, so I'd be "jetting Down" to a smaller Jet number.  Am I misunderstanding this terminology?

Regarding the stock carb, it was in poor (not operable) shape when I got it... I had to piece together a "working" carb between the original, and a parts carb I acquired, so failure to get it running right doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't have better luck with something else.  I've had some weird issues with this carb that consulted with a mechanic, and he suggested that it could have internal micro-cracks in the pot metal causing it to not behave once warm.  After spelling out for him what I've done in trying to fix this carb, he suggested to me that I try a different route, which has led me here.

Quote from: dick1172762 on January 29, 2015, 08:02:52 AM
Your not going to give away anything by using a 2100 (1.08) carb since they came on 260/289 Fords. They are plenty big for a 4 banger.

Correct.  Assuming 100% VE, my engine only needs 249 cfm at 6000 rpm's.  The 1.08 is good for 287 so it should be plenty.  Being non-progressive, I'd prefer it to be as small as possible while still functional, to improve throttle response and increase fuel economy.

dick1172762

Your not going to give away anything by using a 2100 (1.08) carb since they came on 260/289 Fords. They are plenty big for a 4 banger.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

amc49

Changing the power valve only changes when it opens, you change the RESTRICTIONS which affects the jetting bigtime. No way you can really pick exact jetting, you have to play with it. And the jet range used by one engine can be vastly different on another even if same size, no two engine designs pull pressure drop exactly the same. Bigger engine has more pressure drop than smaller so you would go UP on jet as compared to jeep sixes. You go up on jet when engine does not 'zoop' as hard as another, just like when carb bore increases in size.

You'll play dickens with finding the progressive Holley 350, they quit making them long ago. They still make the standard 350 that opens both barrels at same time.

If not having much luck with stock carb then you may well have trouble with a different carb, all the work already done on the OEM one. I most certainly would not be giving away CFM if the engine can run on it.


slimbobaggins

Knowing me though, Id ruin it by dropping a 6 or 8 in it and slapping a turbo on.

slimbobaggins

Dont worry, I hope to some day have a Pinto to play with as well.  My dad had two wagons when I was growing up.

There was a sky blue one w/ wood paneling for sale near me for $4k, something like 88k miles.  Would have liked to buy it, but bought a Focus because I really needed to just get a boring, reliable daily beater. 

pinto_one

the holley carb was a  2305 , part number 0-80120,  rare now I think , its been 25 years since I last used one on a pinto,     dick1172762 is good with the carbs,   to bad we could not talk you into putting a good reliable pinto engine into your Toyota truck  ::)
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

slimbobaggins

Thanks for the responses guys.  I will be sure to take a look at that link.

There is an off the shelf adapter for my intake that will fit the Holley 350, that will allow me to run the 2100.

I was under the impression that the Holley 350 was non-progressive.

The stock Toyota carb is 326 cfm progressive, but the 1.08 287 cfm MC2100 should be more than enough.

Progressive is nice, but this isnt a DD, so gas mileage isnt a huge concern.  The 2100 is supposedly easy to rebuild and tune, and performs well on inclines, all of which are more important to me that the gas mileage of the non-progressive setup.

The stock carb supposedly works well, when it works... But Im not havibg much luck with it.

All the Toyota guys run Webers, but theyre really expensive, and I see a lot of complaints about them.

dick1172762

Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

dick1172762

The 2100 carb is a very good carb for a 4 cylinder engine. They go from 287 to 424 cfm so you can pick one to fit your needs. Most common is the 1.08 which is 287 cfm. The number that shows the size is cast into the side of the carb. E bay is a good place to find a carb and parts. Stay away from the 2150 carbs as it requires more work. The carbs are a direct bolt on if your intake is a match for the carbs bolt pattern. If not, adapter plates are common and cheep. Good carbs and the most common carb of the mini stock racers. I would use the 1.08 in your case.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

pinto_one

most of the 2.3,s had 5200, or the 5210, rated about 270 CFM, the 2100 is kind of what they use on the 2.8 V6 , I do not know how much CFM you need but I do know Holley make a progressive 350 CFM two barrel , most here use stock or slide on to the fuel injection EFI,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

slimbobaggins

Hello all,

Not sure what section this belongs in, hopefully I don't get killed for placement.

I'm looking for Autolite/ Motorcraft 2100 jet size help.

The short of it is, I'm trying to put this my Toyota truck, which is out of the box for that group of car guys.  You Pinto guys are the closest comparable displacement that I can find (Jeep guys run them, but their engines are a lot bigger, so their carb setups aren't close to translating).

I figure my stock OHC 2.4L would require something comparable to one of your 2.3L engines, maybe with a few small upgrades. 

I've been picking through this site and others, trying to find jet size info.  The carb I'm going to try and snag off of Craigslist has 1.08 venturis.  Jeep guys are running around 47's on their engines, so I know I need smaller, but I'm not sure what the different numbers translate to in actual flow rate, so I don't know how much smaller.

I've also read about people changing power valve size, but was using this site for parts reference:

http://www.carburetion.com/ford2v.htm

And they don't reference different power valve sizes and part numbers?

Any suggestions? Thanks!