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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Taking the turbo plunge!

Started by 76hotrodpinto, January 27, 2015, 11:59:24 PM

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Wittsend

That looks a whole lot better with the bumpers retracted.  Should you ever have access to a set of 71-73 bumpers (and desire them) here is a pictorial of a guy who swapped the early bumpers onto a later car http://www.joe-escobar.com/pinto.html. Scroll about a third of the way down.  The hood bulge has a very stealth fighter like look. Maybe it will help evade radar. LOL

You may be struggling with the heat (and working on gravel), but you are making very good progress.  That said, the date of your first post indicates you started over 6 months ago. So, your build I think is a very good indicator of the time it takes to do the turbo build. It sure doesn't happen in a weekend.  We often get guys here who like the concept, but you can generally tell they are rather clueless as to what it really requires. Your posts show the diligence that is necessary. Carry on!

76hotrodpinto

Another unbelievably hot day here! I popped the pimple on my hood. I'm not messing with the hood any more. It's scrap with hinges on it. I'll deal with it properly after I get more important things done. But my ocd isn't twitching... for now.





1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

76hotrodpinto

I took it pretty easy today. Spent a couple hours playing with the front bumper... then ate some bbq!







I drilled and sleeved the frame for 1/2" bolts and removed some "excess". I didn't have the right 1/2" bolt to fasten it in yet, so it's just hanging all wonky in the pics. I split the whole inner brace so that all I have is two pieces with the holes for the mounts and the bumper itself. I like that I'll be able to pull the bumper and leave the braces to work on say... an intercooler. And to put it back on, I don't have to play the alignment game!





I think I removed as much as I kept!

1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

pinto_one

I was welding in a new floor pan in my pinto last year at this time , yep it was hot also , and hot today , around 95 and the humidity here along the coast was high , after I get the bronco II project done I am going to put air conditioning in the garage, this cooking in the summer and freezing my old butt in the wintertime is getting to me , wife worrys that one day I will keel over and die of a heatstroke, so y'all be careful in this hot weather , have a great 4 th
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

65ShelbyClone

I've been cleaning a set of (four) barnacled Kawasaki carburetors for the last three hours. Just moving slow because it's 100°F+ outside and 90+ in the barn.  :P I did 90% of the work on my Pinto last year in the same conditions.  :o
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

pinto_one

Your progress is doing great even though this hot spell, the heat slows everybody down on even the simple projects, looking good ,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

76hotrodpinto

Here's a few more pics of some progress made in the fiery heat.











1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

65ShelbyClone

Keeping the TFI module as cool as possible is never a bad thing, especially when new genuine Motorcraft replacements are both expensive and getting difficult to find. They have to be mounted on a heat sink with heatsink grease if they are controlling the coil because of the current and heat involved.

In my case(using a MegaSquirt standalone ECU), all the TFI does is act as an interface for sending an RPM signal to the ECU so I left it on the distributor. If that module pops, I have a spare. If the spare fails, I have a Duraspark distributor from my parts car that will also work with the MegaSquirt, albeit with some hardware changes.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

No, sorry. I miss understood.  The heat sink TFI isn't a bad idea to consider though. The relay box is a separate item.  Mine is mounted about where your VAM is on the passenger inner fender. That is roughly its natural position in a T/C. Since I don't have a FMIC I just put the VAM inside the passenger fender well. I guess you can put the relay box where you like, but remember if you are having issues access does have its virtue.

If you go to page 4, reply #92 you can see the layout I use. The TFI has yet to be moved/heat sinked and the hideous EGR control is still in place but the rest is the same. (Innercooler removed for visibility).

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: 76hotrodpinto on July 03, 2015, 12:40:44 PM
I have another question... I've been playing the hermit crab game trying to cram all this clutter under the dash, as a result, my previous coil location has been occupied by other gizzardry. There is still enough space to get in there, if I fab a new bracket, but it puts it pretty close to the computers and other magic black boxes. Is the coils field going to mess with the brains of this operation? I figure I can get about 2" from any of it, which is about 4" from the ecu itself. Any thoughts?

Personally, I would try to put it somewhere else like in the engine bay. EEC-IV computers are not particularly sensitive to RFI, but that's assuming all the original noise suppression measures are in place. The TFI harness is wrapped with foil and has a bare grounded wire down the length of it for noise shielding.

QuoteAlso... can I pull an integrated control unit from any comparable 2.3 efi motor? Or does it need to be specifically my setup?

I don't know the answer, but I would start by looking up a replacement for the 'Bird and see if any parts sites list "compatible models."
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

76hotrodpinto

Quote from: oldkayaker on July 03, 2015, 06:05:34 PM
Amazing progress.  If you were referring to the "integrated relay control module", there are various versions.  From the books, they internally appear to be the same except some can control one fan and others two fans.  The terminal numbers do differ some, so I suspect they can not be a plug in direct substitution over the years.  With the correct connector, I believe a different year module could be used with some rewiring.  Note all the suspect, appear, believe, so the above is speculation from looking at wiring drawings and that I have not tried it.

I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same thing. It has a bunch of relay functions, including the fuel pump which does not kick on, through it, at the moment. I'll just write the part number on a note and pin it to my collar when I next go yarding.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

oldkayaker

Amazing progress.  If you were referring to the "integrated relay control module", there are various versions.  From the books, they internally appear to be the same except some can control one fan and others two fans.  The terminal numbers do differ some, so I suspect they can not be a plug in direct substitution over the years.  With the correct connector, I believe a different year module could be used with some rewiring.  Note all the suspect, appear, believe, so the above is speculation from looking at wiring drawings and that I have not tried it.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Wittsend

I can't confirm anything on the interference however, I recall some of the wiring (probably to the TFI) was foil wrapped. The original wiring on my 88 T/C was such that the wiring to the coil came down the passenger side of the engine compartment, across the radiator cradle, then back up the drivers side to the coil. The coil was located adjacent to the distributor.

It seems like the ignition wiring literally went full circle from the TFI at the distributor to the ECU in the passenger kick well then down the passenger/cradle/drivers route I mentioned above as the high tension returned back to the distributor cap.  Perhaps they went that way to avoid interference?

I believe what you call the "integrated control unit" is the TFI. It bolts to the distributor.  There are different TFI's, but I believe those that are similar (and Ford used them on a bunch of cars) will work regardless of the engine size.  Ford eventually removed the TFI from the distributor and mounted it to a heat sink in the engine compartment.  The picture shows my relocated TFI/heat sink and the coil (under the black cover). This does require running wires from the distributor to the TFI. The rest of the wiring (connector and spout) are factory.  There are other heat sink mounted TFI's that only use a single connector because they never had the three spade lugs designed to hook at the distributor.   I am not sure if they work. For sure they would require a different wiring configuration. So, be careful what you look for.

76hotrodpinto

I have another question... I've been playing the hermit crab game trying to cram all this clutter under the dash, as a result, my previous coil location has been occupied by other gizzardry. There is still enough space to get in there, if I fab a new bracket, but it puts it pretty close to the computers and other magic black boxes. Is the coils field going to mess with the brains of this operation? I figure I can get about 2" from any of it, which is about 4" from the ecu itself. Any thoughts?

Also... can I pull an integrated control unit from any comparable 2.3 efi motor? Or does it need to be specifically my setup?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

76hotrodpinto

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on July 03, 2015, 08:05:06 AM
Looks great.. 8)


Thank you. I spared no expense. Got the best spray paint available at ace! Funny part is... when I'm done (with this phase), it will look the same as before, just with a stupid lump on the hood. Until I open the hood, or take off the fenders again. Just an ol' crappy pinto, eh?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

76hotrodpinto

CRIPES IT"S HOT!!! But I tried to push on. Here's a few pics of miscellaneous stuffs.










1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Wittsend

Not to get too far off the point..., but it seems the cruise control has six, maybe 8 cut-off options. I mention this in case anyone is considering it.
1. The ignition switch.
2. The CC on/off switch.
3. The CC control switch when in "coast."
4. The clutch switch.
5. The brake light switch.
6. The brake pedal also has a vacuum break hose on the CC vacuum canister.
[7]. Pushing the clutch pedal is also a mechanical disengagement of the CC controlled drive system.
[8] . Moving the transmission to Neutral.

Note that 7 & 8 do not actually disengage the CC. There was a day I was on vacation outside Seligman, Arizona.  Rolling along at 65 MPH with the CC on our Audi 5000 Turbo (Automatic) lost its transmission and the tach instantly redlined because the car was slowing but the CC was giving more throttle input to compensate. I went 10 miles in 1st gear (at least I had that) to Saligman which is between 'somewhere and somewhere else.'  After waiting nearly an hour for the truck that was just across the street the Audi (with us inside) were loaded on the flatbed tow truck and driven 70 miles to Flagstaff. That is an odd feeling to be in your car, 5 feet in the air going 60 MPH and having absolutely no control.  We joked that it could become like the stage coach where the driver is shot, the horses take off and the passengers need to climb out and take control. I mean, the driver was in his 60's and people do have sudden heart attacks.

Anyway, there is some Turbo Pinto info in this sidetrack. The mid 80's Audi Turbos have a nifty, electric coolant circulation pump. It basically takes a standard heater hose and circulates coolant through the turbo when the car is shut off. A relay and a 555 timer could provide the timed power source.  Lastly, those Audi's (especially the Turbos) have the most powerful fan motor I have ever seen. It is the size of a small starter motor and with the fan pulls a LOT of air. If you can configure a bracket and work around the length I'd recommend it for those forgoing the mechanical fan.

oldkayaker

The clutch switch contains two switches, one for the starter interlock and one for the cruise control.  The starter interlock portion of the switch goes in the wire between the ignition switch (hot on start) and the starter solenoid.  With the clutch depressed, the clutch switch completes the circuit allowing the starter to engage when the ignition switch is in the start position.  The cruise control portion of the switch goes in the wire between the brake light switch output and the cruise control electronic board.  With the clutch depressed, the clutch switch opens to disengage cruise some how (could not figure out circuit).  Note the brake light switch output also goes to the ECM pin #2, for fuel cut on deceleration I believe.  This info is from a 87 Thunderbird EVTM.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

76hotrodpinto

Quote from: Wittsend on June 29, 2015, 02:05:06 PM
I'd think the start interrupt would either be the clutch safety switch circuit (Manual) or the Park/Neutral safety switch circuit (Auto). While not absolutely necessary I elected to make a clutch safety switch from a micro switch. I did it because almost all my other manual cars have one.  I didn't want to have a senior moment where I accidentally started the car in gear because "I wasn't use to not having the safety switch."

I'm thinking I'll put the clutch switch in, but does it need a 12v off the other side of the switch, or a ground?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Wittsend

I'd think the start interrupt would either be the clutch safety switch circuit (Manual) or the Park/Neutral safety switch circuit (Auto). While not absolutely necessary I elected to make a clutch safety switch from a micro switch. I did it because almost all my other manual cars have one.  I didn't want to have a senior moment where I accidentally started the car in gear because "I wasn't use to not having the safety switch."

76hotrodpinto

So maybe a panty hose?

I have another question... My schematics show the "start interrupt relay" wire, but not the end of it. Is it a clutch momentary button? Does it need a ground or a 12v source?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: 76hotrodpinto on June 28, 2015, 11:21:38 PM

I've been looking for a boost gauge that looks era appropriate for a pinto. All I've found, so far, is a b&m supercharger boost gauge, but it only does 15psi. Most are just to ricer looking for me.

VDO or Stewart Warner might have something. Those are the ones I was looking at for a vintage appearance.

QuoteAs for an air cleaner, I was just going to stretch an old sock over the hole and secure it  with a rubber band. Or maybe just a cone style filter thru a hole in the core support or on a 90 pointed downward up against the core support. My ocd is still struggling with that.

The sock would be riskier than a screen or nothing at all. It won't filter and it won't flow, but will destroy the turbo if it or pieces thereof get pulled in.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

76hotrodpinto

I think I'll have to switch to an electric water temp gauge. I can't find anywhere that is deep enough to put the probe in.

I've been looking for a boost gauge that looks era appropriate for a pinto. All I've found, so far, is a b&m supercharger boost gauge, but it only does 15psi. Most are just to ricer looking for me.

I'm running my heater, but I've removed everything but the defrost ducting, and patched over the holes with some sheet metal. It's pretty leak proof now.

As for an air cleaner, I was just going to stretch an old sock over the hole and secure it  with a rubber band. Or maybe just a cone style filter thru a hole in the core support or on a 90 pointed downward up against the core support. My ocd is still struggling with that.

I got all the wiring done, but the integrated control unit (box of relays) seems to be having issues. I suspected something may be up with it, when I tore the tbird down, and the fuel pump had it's own circuit wired in separately from the stock loom. Is this a common issue for these? Any better units to look for? Or ones to avoid?

I did get it to turn over today too. HooraY!
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Wittsend

65 - Yes, and EGR block-off plate would be a good place to tap a boost gauge (now that we have convinced him to remove it).  ;D

76 - Are you running a heater?  I only mention it because it might duct heat onto the ECU.  Being that I used the 88 fuse box (in my attempt to keep the Pinto and T/C wiring separate) I put it where your ECU is.  What are your plans for an air filter? I ask because I see you have the VAM in the engine bay.  I opted to put mine under the fender as it seemed to fall inline with the natural flow of the turbo alignment. It also availed room for factory air filter (mounted upside down).

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: 76hotrodpinto on June 28, 2015, 12:53:44 AMI'm wondering, have any of you hooked up a mechanical water temp. gauge? If so, where did you put the probe?

Although mine is electric, I put the sender in the lower intake manifold. IIRC, it was where the Thunderbird's fan switch had been. I think it shows something resembling a "worst-case" median temperature because that coolant has gone past the front two cylinders and at least one combustion chamber. There is another port toward the rear of the block too.

If you want something cheap and temporary just to get by, Harbor Freight has boost gauges for about $15-20 depending on the coupon. I got one because my budget was getting really this at the time, but it was within 0.5psi of a good Ashcroft combination gauge I tested it against. It only goes up to 20psi, but that's good enough for the average stock turbo setup with a little more than stock boost.

Quote from: Wittsend on June 27, 2015, 05:29:49 PM
I'd think you could pick up the boost tap at the intake manifold.

I tapped into the EGR blockoff plate.

2.3T cars originally had a plastic "vacuum tree" on the firewall that usually had a capped port just asking to be hooked to a boost gauge. Reusing the vacuum tree could be an option. I think I'm going to make another thicker EGR blockoff to serve the same purpose.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

76hotrodpinto

Played with some wires today. And made a little rack to hold the "computers".









I'm wondering, have any of you hooked up a mechanical water temp. gauge? If so, where did you put the probe?

And I realized when I went to put some vacuum tubes back in, the only port left was the one on upper plenum. So I just capped it till I get my hands on a boost gauge.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Wittsend

I'd think you could pick up the boost tap at the intake manifold. That way you would see whatever pressure drop all the intake plumbing might have scrubbed off.  Be careful if you tap the gauge in on the compressor outlet. There is an orifice in that fitting that could throw off the readings if you do it wrong.

Lastly, there is some of that hosing that plays in when you have been on the boost and back off the throttle. It keeps the pressure in the intercooler (and the blades) from building up when the TB blade slams shut. But, as I said above others will have to explain it all to you.  All I'd be good for is explaining the parts that confuse me.  I mean I get the reason why, I don't always get the cause and effect as it relates to the exact plumbing.

65ShelbyClone

The EGR system is shut off under WOT conditions anyway.

Quote from: 76hotrodpinto on June 27, 2015, 10:56:30 AM
So the 1/4" hose barb, can it be used later for a boost gauge?

That barb on the compressor inlet doesn't get any boost now that the stock intercooler is gone.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

Yea, that EGR control is one UGLY looking contraption isn't it (and very convoluted too).  I originally installed mine and left the EGR hooked up thinking I'd be eliminating a problem if things didn't work correctly. But then I thought a leaking EGR valve might also be causing a problem and pulled it. Especially in the older cars it sure cleaned things up under the hood to get that stuff out of there.

There were some concerns I read about. One was that without the EGR combustion chamber temperatures might go up. The other was that if the computer detected the missing EGR it might restrict power. Frankly I don't think either are an issue. And, if the ECU did factor in perhaps it was just that it read a resistance at the solenoids. a resistor could easily fix that. I doubt OBD 1 was looking for a change at the 02 sensor when the EGR activated, but who know??? And, once the boost is there even any vacuum to actuate it anyway?

I have two of those barbs on the turbo inlet on my '88. One runs to the boost control solenoid which is part of the regular/premium fuel switch system. The other runs to a Tee at the intercooler. I currently have one end of the Tee capped off, but it use to run to the multi vacuum Tee that Ford originally had near the master cylinder.

I find the vacuum lines in the setup about as confounding as the EGR control looks.  To me it looks like air bleeds under vacuum and unnecessary pressure loops under boost.  Unless someone used multi colored arrows with detailed explanations I'd be lost to figure it out.