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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Taking the turbo plunge!

Started by 76hotrodpinto, January 27, 2015, 11:59:24 PM

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Wittsend

So, it seems one should be careful what bleed orifice they use if they are mix/matching parts because a little, tiny hole can sure make a difference. Which, BTW I assume the boost can be altered simply using (making) a smaller orifice? This seems rather simple and cheap over the more expensive boost controls.

The speed control and the engine RPM likely do make sense, but it must have a wide, delayed range given the action of gear changes and tire slippage.

For those of us who forgo the speed sensor for the manual speedometer, do you think there is any adverse effect to the ignition/fuel/boost the ECU is allowing?  There are some Tee speedometer drives out there (I have one for a Halda Twinmaster) if I need to reestablish it.

Lastly, what is your take on the **** referring only to the overboost alarm. http://beta.askatech.com/askatechlive/aatfileshare/references/fasttrack/f023.pdf If you look at the larger table (83-86) the notation at the bottom definately is stating such saying "pressure warning." It is my inclination to see it as such for both (also given the column it appears in) and not an indicator of actual boost levels under and above certain RPM's.

65ShelbyClone

I would have kept the octane switch if I was using an EEC.

Quote from: Wittsend on May 05, 2015, 10:50:17 AM
Thanks for the link. It explains a lot. However, it pretty much comes back to what I had understood:

1. "On vehicles with a manual transmission (the LA ECU), with the switch in the PREMIUM position, boost is controlled by the EEC-IV processor, and can go as high as 16 psi depending on rpm, vehicle, speed, and transmission gear selection.

That just means that the octane switch being set on 'regular' will lock out the ECU's ability to raise boost. (Incidentally it pulls some ignition timing as well.)

Quote2. "On automatic transmission vehicles (the LB ECU), switch position does not make any difference. The maximum boost is controlled by the EEC-IV processor at all times. Maximum boost pressures on automatic transmission vehicles vary between 6 and 11 psi  depending on rpm and vehicle speed.

This is why I'm confused about the LA and LB ECU being interchangeabl e. I can't see how the LB ECU limiting to between 6-11 psi would be as capable horsepower wise as the LA that can go as high as 16 psi.

That's because absolute boost numbers aren't dictated by the ECU. The wastegate actuator is what sets the minimum boost pressure and the bleed orifice in the boost control solenoid circuit is what sets the maximum boost pressure. All the ECU does is switch between high and low, which is why an LB3 can be used in place of an LA3

QuoteAlso the **** seems to be a notation for the overboost alarm (it appears in that column) rather than an ECU control of the boost in various stated RPM ranges. That part of what Ford presents is confusing because even if it were to be debated that **** was ECU boost control or an overboost alarm point how would it be known what gear the manual transmission is in regardless of the position one takes???

I figured it out in typing this reply...the ECU determines transmission gear based on signals from the vehicle speed sensor and engine RPM.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

Just so I could have gauges I quickly made a gauge mount out of a 2X4 and some strips of wood for the T/C gauges.  As things go, I'm still using it and then eventually tacked on the Premium switch.  Not ideal, but functional.  I have too many cars to perfect just one.  I've got the three pod factory gauge set that mounts in the heater control area, but that is on my "some day" list.

76hotrodpinto

I think I'm going to keep mine as well, just switch the switch to something that matches my style more. Something more toggle-ish.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Wittsend

I have kept my premium switch. Without it engaged the ECU works at lower boost levels for "Regular" fuel. I'm sure you can hardwire it as long as you always bought premium fuel. For whatever reason Ford has a relay in the switch wiring system.

As far as I know 65SC is running an aftermarket system and I think it completely bypasses the EEC - IV system. His inclination is on a good dose of power where as my goal was to economically transfer over the '88 T/C system "as/is."

76hotrodpinto

Are you guys keeping the premium switch, or bypassing it?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Wittsend

Thanks for the link. It explains a lot. However, it pretty much comes back to what I had understood:

1. "On vehicles with a manual transmission (the LA ECU), with the switch in the PREMIUM position, boost is controlled by the EEC-IV processor, and can go as high as 16 psi depending on rpm, vehicle, speed, and transmission gear selection.

2. "On automatic transmission vehicles (the LB ECU), switch position does not make any difference. The maximum boost is controlled by the EEC-IV processor at all times. Maximum boost pressures on automatic transmission vehicles vary between 6 and 11 psi  depending on rpm and vehicle speed.

This is why I'm confused about the LA and LB ECU being interchangeable. I can't see how the LB ECU limiting to between 6-11 psi would be as capable horsepower wise as the LA that can go as high as 16 psi.

Also the **** seems to be a notation for the overboost alarm (it appears in that column) rather than an ECU control of the boost in various stated RPM ranges. That part of what Ford presents is confusing because even if it were to be debated that **** was ECU boost control or an overboost alarm point how would it be known what gear the manual transmission is in regardless of the position one takes???

65ShelbyClone

This is the turbo boost specification for all the various 2.3T models. It says boost was allowed to hit 15psi in 1st and 2nd gear for the '87-88 TC, but there was no way that the ECU could know what gear you were in.

http://beta.askatech.com/askatechlive/aatfileshare/references/fasttrack/f023.pdf
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

OK, I'm not trying to dispute here, I'm just confused. I had a friend with an Auto 87 TC and recall him saying the HP was limited to about 165 or 175.  His 87 Auto car also had a single exhaust as opposed to the dual of the 5 speed.  If the LB computers are compatible (and by that I mean plug N' play equal HP) with the LA's where does the different HP ratings between the Auto and 5 speed cars come from?

I always thought (by what I read) that the LA-3 (and "P_" SVO series) were the most desirable ECU to have.  I have shied away from the LB series believing they were less desirable that the LA's. And, I even sold a LA-2 thinking that the LA-3's were better.  All a mote point now, as I have an LA-3 in the car and two more LA-3's stashed in my "private reserve." But now I'm feeling a bit foolish if my LA-3 ONLY quests were being unnecessarily persnickety.

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: 76hotrodpinto on May 04, 2015, 12:44:19 PM
Is there a way to tell if the tbird is setup with system that allows full boost in all gears, or the one that limits 1st and 2nd?

All of the cars that allowed for a"high" boost level of 14-15psi also had a limiter of sorts. The system actually limited boost to the baseline wastegate spring setting (~10psi) below 4000rpm regardless of gear. An EEC-IV had no provision for sensing what specific gear the trans is in. You can make it run full boost all the time by simply bypassing the boost control solenoid.

On the other subject of transmissions, my 'Bird had a speedo sender. Mustangs with WC T5s had a cable for the speedo and a speed sensor for the EFI and/or cruise control.

Quote from: Wittsend on May 04, 2015, 01:15:07 PM
The 5 speed ECU for the 87-88 cars was LA-2 and LA-3 respectively. (snip) These two ECU's were deemed to have a faster processor over the 86 and older. I'm not sure what the SVO ECU had, but I believe the 5 speed version was rated at 205 HP VS 190 HP for the 87-88 T/C 5 speed.  Probably a bit of apples to oranges comparison given various parts differences.

There are also LB_ ECUs that came in the same TurboCoupes and they are interchangeabl e with the LA2/3. SVOs all had the older P-series computers.

Only the '85.5 SVO was rated at 205hp. It was derated to 200hp (on paper only) for the actual '86 model year so the '86 GT 5.0 would look more powerful. The '84-85 SVO was only rated at 175hp. There are actually a lot of differences for such a short-lived, low-production car. The SVO's story is a neat one and fascinating, but ultimately tragic.

Putting an SVO T3 turbo on an '87-88 Turbo Coupe would effectively upgrade the engine to complete '85.5 SVO spec. Putting an intercooler on my '86 engine would do the same. A stock non-intercooled 2.3T at 15psi is good for about 170rwhp.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

That is an interesting question. With the T-5 I only recall the back up light switch and the speedometer wiring. So, how would the ECU know what gear you are in???  Maybe for the Automatic cars there was boost limitations? I have heard such, but only having a T-5 car I can't speak from experience.  The 5 speed ECU for the 87-88 cars was LA-2 and LA-3 respectively. For the automatic cars I'd think there was likely an on/off type switch and either by completing or defeating a circuit (however Ford did it) the ECU can be fooled??? Regardless of what was done in the lower gears it was my understanding that the final HP rating for the Automatic cars was about 20 HP lower than the 5 speed cars. Hopefully someone can confirm this.

These two ECU's were deemed to have a faster processor over the 86 and older. I'm not sure what the SVO ECU had, but I believe the 5 speed version was rated at 205 HP VS 190 HP for the 87-88 T/C 5 speed.  Probably a bit of apples to oranges comparison given various parts differences.

76hotrodpinto

Is there a way to tell if the tbird is setup with system that allows full boost in all gears, or the one that limits 1st and 2nd?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

76hotrodpinto

I don't have my mind set on the hydraulic clutch, but it would be so nice. The cable is easier to install, but I've stuffed a few master cylinders in some dark corners before. I need to decide fairly soon though, so I can get this party started!
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

oldkayaker

A clutch master cylinder under the dash is feasible, the first link shows one method.  The second link covers non-OEM clutch hydraulic replacement lines for use with a 87-88TC hydraulic clutch slave cylinder.
http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/71950-My-74-Turbo-Pinto-little-bit-different/page3
http://forum.turboford.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=058523;p=0
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Wittsend

The reverse clutch M/C is a possibility, but frankly the bell crank is simple, straight forward and available. I feel you would be reinventing the wheel to go hydraulic.  And again, space might be tight. That general area under the Pinto dash I packed with the cruise control and intermittent wipers stuff so I be hard pressed to see up there and advise on the hydraulic feasibility.

76hotrodpinto

On the clutch subject, I'm toying with the idea of a different master cylinder, with similar capacities as the tbirds, mounted backwards up under the dash, like up near the dash bracing. That way the direction of travel at the top of clutch pedal will match the direction of the reversed master cyl. Then run the line out and down.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Wittsend

My '88 TC donor had the electronic speedo even though the face was typical analog. So, I'm thinking they all were electronic.  A word of caution...,  I used the gear from the C-4 on my T-5. It had a tip on it and when clamped down it caused the gear to bind on the opposite side of the housing.  The end result of that was the gear on the output shaft forced itself backwards - out of mesh. Prying with screwdrivers would not get to clip to snap back into place.  I was almost going to pull the tailshaft when I found that the vertical tube of 90's era halogen "torch" light just fit over the shaft and inside the bearing. A quick whack and the gear was reset. However, I did cut the tip off to avoid the binding.

I also cut up the T/C fuel/return lines, part of the line is plastic and needs to be shortened. There is a barbed repair coupler I used to join the cut parts.

Don't waste any time considering the hydraulic clutch. It is an oddball configuration that internally parallels the steering column and has no allotted space in the Pinto.  Get the bellcrank housing. You will need to elevate the cable mount over the crossmember, but that is easy enough with a piece of flat steel.

Here is a link to my two part build. Perhaps some of the information is helpful. http://www.fordpinto.com/index.php?topic=11908.msg76893#msg76893

Lastly here is a shot of my engine compartment with the '88 T/C harness (and stock Pinto harness). Quite a few wires even when encased in the plastic wrap. Especially around the master cylinder.

76hotrodpinto

Quote from: 65ShelbyClone on May 03, 2015, 01:15:38 AM
It doesn't matter; a manual Pinto cable and gear ought to fit in the T5 just fine.

FYI, World-Class T5s came in '86+ cars. I have one and you have one.  :D

So the wc t5 comes with both mechanical and electrical speedo out? I was under the impression the wc were electrical and the non-wc were mechanical. I like the idea of the wc t5, much tighter feel to it.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

65ShelbyClone

It doesn't matter; a manual Pinto cable and gear ought to fit in the T5 just fine.

FYI, World-Class T5s came in '86+ cars. I have one and you have one.  :D

'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

76hotrodpinto

I wasn't able to stuff myself to far under it yet, so I'm not certain the trans has a mechanical speedo output, or electrical. Anyone able to say with certainty, one way or the other? My understanding is that's only on the world class t5, this should have the non-world class t5... right?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

65ShelbyClone

If you think the 'Bird is quick as it is, try that driveline in a car that's 800-1000lbs lighter.

Quote from: 76hotrodpinto on May 02, 2015, 11:33:28 PMAnd are you guys running thru the existing fuel lines and just clamping flexie efi lines off them, or flaring them out for compression fittings? Or?

I'm using the stock steel lines with some mods, but there are numerous options for plumbing the fuel.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

76hotrodpinto

I took the tbird out for another ride. Man, that thing is pretty quick, for a boat! I did a bunch of staring and smoking today. I think I got the harness situation mostly figured out. I got to start today by replacing the fuel pump relay. I'm going to do the mods in the tbird to make it easier to just swap over. I did notice a hydraulic clutch though, that's going to take some more staring and smoking. And are you guys running thru the existing fuel lines and just clamping flexie efi lines off them, or flaring them out for compression fittings? Or?

Here's a couple pics of my donor.





1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

Wittsend

Quote from: 65ShelbyClone on May 02, 2015, 01:38:11 PM
Ford apparently made the '87-88 Turbo Coupe harnesses into one big integrated part that carries wiring for a lot of other non-engine systems. Wittsend has an opinion on using one in a Pinto as I recall.  ;)

For sure on that. After I pared everything down that seemed non-essential I still had about 20 "not sure" wires. And that pared down took days.  I'll included a shot of the harness as it relates to the dash. Now to be fair I opted to used the T/C steering column/fuse box etc. - but still.  Basically I wanted the engine management free and clear of the stock Pinto wiring.  Thought I'd avoid problems that way. LOL  NOW..., I'm inclined to think I'd have been better off leaving 6" at the end of each connector and just soldering wires as needed.  Live and learn.

The radiator I'm 99% sure is too big.  I did bump my '73 17" to 20" but I assume you already have the 20".

As far as the rear end, I have the inverse. To have the T/C carcass hauled away I welded the Pinto 6-3/3" rear. So, you can somewhat visualize the difference.

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: 76hotrodpinto on May 02, 2015, 09:02:41 AM
Is there any info out there on the harness mods to run it in the pinto?

The info is pretty much "use something else."

Ford apparently made the '87-88 Turbo Coupe harnesses into one big integrated part that carries wiring for a lot of other non-engine systems. Wittsend has an opinion on using one in a Pinto as I recall.  ;)

I used the ECU harness from my '86 donor car and it was still a major project paring it down to the bits I needed. It may have been less work to keep the emissions-related stuff had I used a stock ECU.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

76hotrodpinto

Quote from: 65ShelbyClone on May 02, 2015, 08:51:54 AM
That 'Bird has upper and lower control arm rear suspension. You could cut all the brackets off and weld on spring perches, but the rear end will still be about 2" too wide on each side. However, something the '87-93 Mustang crowd would do (if I recall correctly) is use the Mustang axels and somehow flip the caliper brackets in order to use the TC rear under a narrower Mustang. FYI, your donor car will have 3.55 gears if it's a 5-speed and 3.73s if it's an automatic....and a Traction-Lok in either case.

The radiator is way too big and won't fit without major mods. The fans might have potential.

It's a 5sp. I thought the rad looked too wide, but I haven't had the time to check all that out yet. I'll stick to my current 8" and do a disc conversion later. Maybe I can re-coupe (get it?!) some money, by selling that one. Is there any info out there on the harness mods to run it in the pinto? 
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

65ShelbyClone

That 'Bird has upper and lower control arm rear suspension. You could cut all the brackets off and weld on spring perches, but the rear end will still be about 2" too wide on each side. However, something the '87-93 Mustang crowd would do (if I recall correctly) is use the Mustang axels and somehow flip the caliper brackets in order to use the TC rear under a narrower Mustang. FYI, your donor car will have 3.55 gears if it's a 5-speed and 3.73s if it's an automatic....and a Traction-Lok in either case.

The radiator is way too big and won't fit without major mods. The fans might have potential.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

76hotrodpinto

Well I have 2 blocks, 3 heads, 3 turbos and whole 87 turbo coupe donor that runs great! I think I'm ready to start the swap now. Will that disc brake rear end and radiator/fan setup from the tbird fit my 76?
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

65ShelbyClone

Many Fox3 vehicles, especially Mustangs and T-Birds, have the coil hidden under a plastic cover on the driver-side inner fender...if the cover is still there.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

76hotrodpinto

I learn something new every other week. I'll look for some the next time I make a yard run.
1976 half hatch 2.3 turbo w/t5.

65ShelbyClone

"E-core" coils have epoxy-potted cores. While oil helps cooling in old-style coils, it is there more to act as an insulator. Epoxy coils have the iron pile eposed and don't need special cooling measures when driven as intended(usually an ECU or coil driver with dwell control like the original TFI module or a GM HEI).  The ones that Ford used with EFI are better known as TFI coils and are blockish in shape. I'm using the one that came out the '86 Thunderbird donor. Just be aware that they use a special plug with spade terminals, not posts like a regular coil.

On a side note, I have the oil-filled coil in my Mustang mounted on its side and the TFI coil in the Pinto mounted upright.... ???
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.