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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

A 1972 turbo swap adventure

Started by 65ShelbyClone, July 20, 2014, 12:39:02 PM

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65ShelbyClone

Quote from: Wittsend on September 18, 2014, 12:40:14 PM
Wow, thanks for all the progress updates. In a lot of ways it is like reliving my project.  There is some comfort in knowing I wasn't the only one who had the issues you encountered.

I was a little concerned about spamming this thread too much. :) The weather has been unseasonably hot and humid the last 10 days, giving me only about an hour before dark in the evenings to do stuff (like swatting at eye gnats), so progress has been in small steps.

QuoteA few comments:

Seven times I had the engine in/out before I committed to welding the motor mounts. I also hammered on my pan a bit, but then I have the odd (bulbous ended) '73 rack.

On the transmission mount even reversed you still have to get those bolt holes (slot) WAY far back - don't you!

Mine ended up not being that far back, possibly because the engine is marginally higher and forward of where a lot of people put it. I think I could have gotten away with just flipping the crossmember.

Quote
On the starter bearing protrusion I slightly notched the rubber and then indented the rack clamp (do at your own risk). But, yea it is tight. I even had to grind down the head of the rear clamp bolt because the starter was hitting it.  This swap probably has about five areas you could measure the clearance with a feeler gauge.

The main reason I opted for more clearance in the tight areas was to allow for any sagging the engine mounts may do as they age.

QuoteI don't have anything to add regarding the "flywheel" on the drive shaft. Thankfully my 2.0/C-4/6-3/4" drive shaft fit perfectly with my 2.3/T-5/8". However, if you find the cable to crossmember clearance to be a problem you might add an extension like this (image 1). You have to bend the bellcrank arm outward slightly for better alignment.  I also put a small tab on the bracket as an anti rotate if it got loose.

If the mounts relax enough to make the cable hit the crossmember, I'm just going to notch it. Fortunately the engine pulls upward on that side.

QuoteLastly, how does the shifter feel position wise? (are you punching the dash in 1-3-5)? I'm 6 ft. and prefer my seat back.  It was quite a process to cut (shorten) and extend (rearward) the shifter and still get the motion to feel correct.

All the best and thanks again for the updates.

I'm 6' 4" and probably have a longer reach, but I'm still going to relocate the shifter. My arm is out straight in neutral and it's only tolerable, not comfortable. There is about 4" between the stereo face and shift knob in 1/3/5, so not bad there. The plan is to make a bracket like yours, but with a stock-looking stick and knob for a touch of stealth.  ;D
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

Wow, thanks for all the progress updates. In a lot of ways it is like reliving my project.  There is some comfort in knowing I wasn't the only one who had the issues you encountered.  A few comments:

Seven times I had the engine in/out before I committed to welding the motor mounts. I also hammered on my pan a bit, but then I have the odd (bulbous ended) '73 rack.

On the transmission mount even reversed you still have to get those bolt holes (slot) WAY far back - don't you!

On the starter bearing protrusion I slightly notched the rubber and then indented the rack clamp (do at your own risk). But, yea it is tight. I even had to grind down the head of the rear clamp bolt because the starter was hitting it.  This swap probably has about five areas you could measure the clearance with a feeler gauge. Dick, thanks for the starter info.

I don't have anything to add regarding the "flywheel" on the drive shaft. Thankfully my 2.0/C-4/6-3/4" drive shaft fit perfectly with my 2.3/T-5/8". However, if you find the cable to crossmember clearance to be a problem you might add an extension like this (image 1). You have to bend the bellcrank arm outward slightly for better alignment.  I also put a small tab on the bracket as an anti rotate if it got loose.

Lastly, how does the shifter feel position wise? (are you punching the dash in 1-3-5)? I'm 6 ft. and prefer my seat back.  It was quite a process to cut (shorten) and extend (rearward) the shifter and still get the motion to feel correct.

All the best and thanks again for the updates.

65ShelbyClone

Just a small, ear-splitting update:





It's just there long enough to keep exhaust from blowtorching that brake line and new metal where the battery was when I fire the engine and work out the preliminary kinks.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: 65ShelbyClone on July 21, 2014, 12:20:11 PM
I went back and looked and I guess it came from Jonson Machine. Whether they built it or just sold it, I don't know. Could be a C-Line.

I remembered someone asking and thought I would follow up with the information that it is a C-Line oil pan. I didn't notice the name stamped in it by the drain until crawling around the car with the sump in my face. ::)
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

Finally got to button a few things up.







Anyone familiar with the Turbo Coupe (and other models') enormous driveshaft yoke damper like this



might be interested to know that all that rubber and iron are just pressed on there. Under it all is a fairly standard yoke.



In my case, a 1310 one. I would have used the 1330 yoke that came with the drive shaft, but the rust pitting wouldn't clean up enough.

Now I have to track down some bulk high pressure fuel hose which is surprisingly hard to find in this godforsaken place.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

Thanks for the interchange source. :) I was thinking "this thing needs a mini starter" the whole time. You can see how grungy the original one is ( the one part I didn't clean) and it is original 1986, so a replacement is probably in the foreseeable future anyway.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

dick1172762

Get a mid 90's ranger 2.3L starter and you'll have lots of clearance plus it'll turn over like the plugs are out. Cheap mini starter.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

65ShelbyClone

And harder-won:






Yeah, about that hood clearance...I thought I would be able to make some blocks to raise the back of the hood, but that's probably not going to work with a combination of the smallest Pinto engine bay and tallest 2.3T intake.


I spent a really long time lining up the mounts and finally jiggled the whole driveline into a spot where there is about a finger's width between the pand and rack, bellhousing bolts and firewall, and at least the starter isn't touching the rack,

Did you guys know that the 2.3 doesn't sit straight in a Pinto engine bay? I didn't, at least not before spending a few hours trying to get one to sit straight. :o
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

It's hard-won progress, but progress nonetheless.





The mounts aren't welded yet, but at least that heavy beast is hanging in the bay now.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

Mine is exactly opposite; the soft line comes up from the bottom and the hard line down from above through the inner fender. I think I got it all tweaked and moved out of the way of the mount now. I cleaned and prepped the frame rails for welding too.

The engine is hanging in the air, the rear main seal has been replaced, and the new flywheel and clutch installed. Dipstick is bolted down, sending units have been transferred from the 2.0 to the 2.3, and aftermarket ones installed for the funky '80s LED volts/water/oil gauge I got. Next task is to bolt the transmission on and start locating the mounts.


Yes, I know there's a Fram filter on there. It's going to be on there just long enough to catch all the assembly debis/rag lint/dog hair/etc and/or get caved-in during engine installation. ;)

Anyone notice something wrong with this picture?


I didn't until it was bolted onto the engine and the pressure plate was ready to go on. No dowels!

The old junk flywheel was still around, so I knocked the ring gear loose, tossed it up on the mill, cut from the back until I hit the pockets, and then knocked the dowels out.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

Here is a bottom side picture of how the '73 brake line was run. Interesting they would move it given the same engines were offered in '72 as '73.

The boost control actuator sure tucks closer to the engine on pre-87-88 engines.  Your sheet metal in that area must be 3" higher than mine.  Not sure if you are aware, but the rear outer bolt on the cast 90 degree elbow (where it connects to the exhaust pipe) has both interference issues and difficulty in tightening.  I think some just punch a hole big enough for a socket to fit through.

74 PintoWagon

Nothing wrong with that, should last a lifetime now..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

65ShelbyClone

You're too kind toward my booger welds.

On a side note, that part of the inner fender is surprisingly rigid now. The 16ga sheet I did the lower half with is like armor plate compared to the original rusty cheese.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

74 PintoWagon

Looks good, better than if I would have done it, lol.. ;D
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

65ShelbyClone

I hate showing off my own welds, but I accomplished the major goal of getting the inner fender welding and fabrication done. Flux core on dirty iron-based paper does not make for pretty, so maybe the doo-doo weld beads will get tidied a bit. Or not.



Here's a cast elbow I'm been dragging around forever and an old Pace Setter air filter that has been around even longer. Turns out one end of the elbow is 2.75" like the compressor inlet and the other end is 5" like that air filter. Would be great if both end up fitting somewhere.

'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

On my '73 the hard brake line runs under the uni-frame rail.

  I cut the whole panel back about 3/4" short of the firewall. Going forward I went to that lower triangular area. Where as the original metal bumps upward to seemingly clears the upper A-arm, I went concave to clear the boost control actuator (which even after that has very little clearance). I think it is a much better way than piecing specific areas of rust. Top to bottom I went from the frame rail to the top of the inner compartment sheet metal.

  Logically I think it just kind of dictates what can be done with ordinary tools unless you have all the proper sheet metal tools. Cardboard templates help a lot.  Oh, and the welded seam in the center..., it is Bondo-ed. My metal skills aren't that good.




65ShelbyClone

After wasting an hour looking the rubber engine mounts I bought months ago followed by a combined two hours looking for two 7/16-14 nuts to go on them, I got all the bracketry mocked onto the engine.

Now it's getting to the part I don't really like: replacing rusty sheet metal.



I was going to drop the engine in first to see how much space I needed to make for the turbo, but the battery area started disintegrating under a wire wheel, so it got moved ahead. The Thunderbird's fuel tank is an unlikely source for patch panels with compound bends.

What have you all with the early cars done with this brake line?


Haven't decided if I'm going to try bending it, replacing it, or rerouting it under the frame.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

It actually only goes to 20psi, which is too low even for my stock turbo goals, but it was cheap.

Bourdon tube pressure gauges (at least industrial ones) are generally calibrated to be most accurate right in the middle of their range and have the most error at either end, so if you are going to be running ~30psi, you might consider a 60psi diesel pressure-only gauge if absolute accuracy is a consideration. Usually it's not critical in automotive applications though.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

don33

Mmmm, that boost gauge wouldn't work for me, only goes to 30 lbs. lol... :o

65ShelbyClone

I'll have something worthwhile to report next time, I promise.

I checked current draw at standby and for each color with a Harbor Freight DVOM (got it free with the gauge) and the tired 9v battery in that last photo. Actual current draw at system voltage in a car will be higher.


Standby...3.5mA @ 8v
Green....17.0mA
Blue.....12.0mA
Red......23.5mA
Aqua.....23.8mA
Yellow...35.4mA
Purple...30.1mA
White....41.4mA


Standby is the one to worry about because that's what pulls on the battery when the car is parked.

Current goes upward with some colors because the LED has three silicon chips inside; red green, and blue. Various combinations are needed to make the other colors. White runs all three, so it creates the highest current draw.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

TL;DR alert. I have been doing a job that keeps me away from the car for days at a time, so not much is getting done as of late. Here's a week of catchup:

I replaced an axle seal and got into the middle of replacing a damaged wheel stud when I found out that I bought the wrong stud. >:( Got the right one now, but haven't installed it yet. As an aside, I suggest avoiding Centric/C-Tek brand seals. More Chinese junk.

Speaking of Chinese junk, I also got my combo u-joints. They are Precision brand, same as what O'Reilly's carries, but I got them for half price. Turns out one of them had nicks on two journals that made it spin rough. Not worth sending it back, so I polished them out. Also....the joints have "USA" cast into the spider, but say "made in China" on the box. >:(

Quote from: 65ShelbyClone on August 13, 2014, 11:27:39 PMI also replaced the pinion seal in the MII 8" rear (edit 8/20/2014: using a good Timken seal). Hopefully I got preload back in the right ballpark...

My driving desire to do everything the right way with this car forced me to buy a little 0-60in/lb beam torque wrench specifically to check the pinion preload. At least I can use it on my bicycles too. It says the preload is still way below spec for used bearings, so I don't have to replace the crush sleeve after all, just keep tightening and checking until it's right. :D

Conclusion: reassembling the pinion nose/yoke/nut in original alignment without checking preload is lazy and unreliable.

My hokey seven-color Harbor Freight boost gauge came in yesterday. I only got it because the reviews are good and I thought having red/green/white backlight options would be handy. Problem is that the needle is red and the red LED setting makes it disappear. OTOH, the blue and aqua options make it fluoresce like a blacklight would. It's also extremely bright, so I'll have to figure something out to dim it.




As an FYI, this gauge requires a constant +12v power supply if you want it to remember an LED color setting other than the default green. It latches the setting when the selector button is pushed and killing power resets it. I'll check the standby current draw when I can and report back.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

Thanks to 72pair, I'll know if the DS is workable much sooner with the help of these:


If no one has ever seen 2.0 mounts removed with anything other than a chisel and BFH, here are some intact:


In other news, I put the 3G on:


3G swaps are easy if the engine already has a serpentine belt, but things are a little more complicated with v-belts. A standard dual belt pulley like mine will rub on the 3G case. A simple fix is to put the original 1G 0.060" washer behind the pulley, but that doesn't fix the minimal thread engagement for the nut.

In order to fix all of that without changing belt alignment, I put the pulley in a lathe and faced about 0.060" off the back(but not off of the shoulder that butts against the bearing) and made the front counterbore about 0.080" deeper.

I also replaced the pinion seal in the MII 8" rear. Hopefully I got preload back in the right ballpark...
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

72pair

Will be interested in how this all shakes out. IIRC, I put the 2.3 and 4 speed in my 72 and used the original driveshaft. I later installed the MII 8 inch and needed to shorten the shaft one inch. Could probably have jammed it in there but wanted some play. Still later added the t-5 and needed more clearance so went looking for a shorter shaft. The 45.5 number seems familiar so hopefully that  works for you. Wish that car wasnt buried in the back of a buddy's garage so I could measure it. I agree reading posts here you get a lot of conflicting info at times. 
72 sedan 2.0, c-4 beater now hot 2.0, 4-speed
72 sedan 2.3, t-5, 8" running project
80 Bobcat hatchback 2.3, 4-spd, 97K

65ShelbyClone

Only the AWD '96-97(?) Aerostar rear drive shafts were aluminum and 45.5". There were lots of Aerostars at the JY when I went, but all of them were 2WD or I would have pulled one. More of that detective work at work...

Quote from: Wittsend on August 13, 2014, 04:11:17 PMThe "detective work" can be fun at times. Sure saves cash.

And something just might get learned in the process.  :o 8)
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

Got ya. Yes, I recall my C-4, 6-3/4" driveshaft being 45.5" so it worked without changes.  I also recall someone stating an Aerostar aluminum driveshaft being 45.5".

  I've got a '64 Studebaker Daytona with a 350 Chevy small block and a 700R4. When I did the transmission swap I had to crawl under a few cars, but a '78 Buick Skylark 4 Dr. did the job and its 350 (trans) input shaft fit my 700R4.  The "detective work" can be fun at times. Sure saves cash.

65ShelbyClone

A lot of the info I have found is conflicting. I have seen reports that just an 8" swap requires a shorter drive shaft and I know a T5 is 1.375in longer than a 4-speed. I had to go on what people said about a 45.5in being right for a 2.3/T5/8in in a Pinto.

It also took a lot of digging to find out that '79-93 V8 and '94-04 V6 Mustangs all use 45.5in long drive shafts with joint size depending on year and engine.

Mine was obscurely labeled as being from (and only cross-referenced to) a 2000-2001 Mustang V6 five speed, so I took a gamble and bought it. Fortunately it turned out to be 45.5in as well. $32 shipped plus $20 in u-joints ≈ $50 saved over having the original shortened.

It uses 1330 universals and both yokes are 1310, hence the combination joints.

Curious tidbit: the 2001 driveshaft ends still have a 1963 Ford engineering number.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

What is your replacement shaft from?  I went from a C-4 with a 6-3/4" to a T-5 with a 8" and was able to use the same driveshaft.  Since your car was originally a 4 speed perhaps that necessitates the change?  Is it the yoke on the differential that require the combination U-Joints?

65ShelbyClone

Small update: some uninteresting gaskets, seals, and bearings came yesterday for the rear end. The drive shaft came in this afternoon.





It's wider, so hopefully that makes up for being shorter. :ob [/innuendo]

Now I'm waiting for a pair of combination u-joints in the mail.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

I never did get any 2.3 mounts. I'll send you a PM shortly.

On the build front, I got new brushes in the 3G alternator and put a 3/8-16 Heli Coil in the adjuster ear. It's all back together and now I have to massage the pulley so it doesn't rub on the case and so there is enough shaft thread for the nut, then make sure alignment is still good.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

72pair

Looks like you're well on your way. Have you found mounts? I did scare up a set of block and frame mounts, if you're still interested in a swap. It'll be a cross country ship, but they should fit in a flat rate box.
72 sedan 2.0, c-4 beater now hot 2.0, 4-speed
72 sedan 2.3, t-5, 8" running project
80 Bobcat hatchback 2.3, 4-spd, 97K