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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

A 1972 turbo swap adventure

Started by 65ShelbyClone, July 20, 2014, 12:39:02 PM

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robertwwithee

Dutchwagon picked some wheels over there in NL.  I will probably head over next year for more training with company.  Love the Pinto group and company that sends me world wide.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


pinto_one

If you have Disk brakes up front you may not need an up grade , just need power brakes  , I have it on my pintos and works very well and wish i had them sooner , can lock them up very easy at highways speeds , so no problem , you just might have to install a brake booster ,I believe it can be done , the early pinto is very light , mine is close to being 800 lbs heaver , Auto , A/C , power everything along with a V-6 , My wheels are 15 X 7 4 lug , run a 205/60/15 , everything clears up front , as for the 8" rear end I have a rear housing with axles if you want them , got to pick then up here or anyone that headed your way can , (Free)  and Dutch Wagon I have a set of stock pinto mag wheels if you can get your friend to carry them over to you , stock 13'  had to got to the 15,s because the 13inch tires like 195/70/13 are not sold here any longer , over your way they are ,
76 Pinto sedan V6 , 79 pinto cruiser wagon V6 soon to be diesel or 4.0

72DutchWagon

Not that I'm adressing my 72 front brake setup anytime soon, but I'm definitely going to stick with 4 lug wheels.
There are lots of 4 lug wilwood kits available here in Europe for street and race based on the Ford Cortina and Taunus. If I can in some way (probably  meaning fabricating) change out the early Pinto spindle with a Cortina spindle there is no more issue in getting aftermarket brake kits.
Robert once brought over a spindle from a 73, that didn't match the Cortina one but we didn't  determine if his was an early or late 73 spindle and that does make a difference.
The issue has been addressed here once before (2003) but I don't believe they ever got to the bottom of it.
Switching to 5 lug on the other hand might in your case not only be wise for practical reason's but there is also a heavier engine in there?

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: 65ShelbyClone on August 12, 2017, 09:31:45 PM
I don't want to buy wheels until I figure out the brakes,



Even though I don't think it ought to be, a five-lug conversion looks to be the least difficult way to facilitate a brake upgrade and ensure future parts availability. Therefore, WHEELS!





I was going to get some new steel roundy-round wheels, but found these for about 1/2 the cost. They're 15x7" with 3.75" backspacing.

There are some other parts on order, but it's boring stuff the car actually needs like shocks and strut rod bushings.

As for work actually done today, I jury-rigged fixed one of the rear brakes. The e-brake handle j-bolt broke a long time ago and I ignored it. Turns out the brake adjuster spring in the drum was also broken, so all the parts came loose and got mangled while I was driving recently. Fortunately I had another Pinto rear to scavenge parts from. Between the two, I have one full L/R set of brake springs.  :o

More fortunate still is that the MII brakes from/for the waiting 8"rear end are completely intact, although I have not ruled out a rear disc conversion.  8)
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

dick1172762

Glad to see you back! Please keep up the great pictures. They help all Pinto gear heads, not just turbo builders.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: fordpinto.com
Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 30 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

LOL.

Some things have been going on, but I won't have pictures up until I get new photo hosting that isn't Photobucket.

Updates:

1.) The radiator is effectively in pending some bolt tightening and fan wiring and functioning. The only way to fit a puller fan was to put two small Chinese 7" fans on either side of the crank and water pump pulleys. Hopefully the fan controller can cope in the long term. In case that wasn't enough,  I also got a spare 10" that can be put on the front as a pusher if needed. After running the car a bit tonight, it looks like it's probably needed.  ???

2.) I also got a 3" diameter, 3" radius steel doughnut in preparation for another attempt to get exhaust over the axle.

3.) I sold the 13" Minilites to make room/money for larger wheels....something that will fit over a brake upgrade.

4.) Much intensive research has been done on the topic of brake upgrades. Turns out that big 11" Pinto/MII and Granada rotors are quite abundant in any bolt pattern you want as long as it's five-lug. 11" MII rotors with the stock bolt pattern are completely nonexistent. Drill-your-own rotors are the same. Remember when I tried very hard to get an MII rear end because it had a stock 4x4.25" wheel pattern? Yeah, not working so good now.

I don't want to buy wheels until I figure out the brakes, I don't want to install the rear end until I figure out the brakes, and I don't want to build over-the-axle exhaust until an 8" gets installed. Oi!

At least the cooling system appears to be better than it was. That was a big hurdle.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Srt

talking a long time ago here but; when I had my turbo 71 I had my cousin hand build me a 3" core radiator with hand built tanks to fit in the stock location .

I don't think it EVER went over 180 degrees.

It was a god send that he was in the radiator business.  it only cost $100 and a burger & fries.
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

65ShelbyClone

LOL. It was 80°F in my office today and probably only 10° more than that outside. Says more about my employer's (lack of) A/C than the weather though.

Over the last few weekends I've been 1.) out of town, 2.) sitting in front of the cooler, or 3.) picking away at the Pinto's tune. I was using a throwaway laptop from work to tune with, but it was struggling with only 2 gig of RAM, so I installed a lighter OS...without backing-up a handful of good data logs I wanted to review. :o Not a big loss, but still.

Fortunately they helped get the acceleration enrichment improved quite a bit before that happened.

The headliner has also started falling to pieces.  ???

Quote from: Wittsend on May 15, 2017, 11:52:02 AM
"And shaved the TB flange some more for hood clearance. I think now there's an impressive 1/8"."

In reference to the associated picture above, Yes, "been there done that." Being I did mine with a manual mill (aka a hand file) it tapers in many directions. I'd post an image but given the latest cyber attack I'm on my Linux computer and no pictures there.

Well, I thought it was 1/8" and it may be, but it's still rubbing on the hood. Oh well, maybe a cowl or something is going to happen after all.

Quote.Do you have a shroud on the fan?  From what I've studied they help a lot to improve airflow through a radiator. In my Tiger world it is a big issue.  They even block the venting on the sides of the radiator (horn openings) because they found at idle that the hot air recirculates.  Another thing they do is put and air dam skirt under the front valance. It helps to generate a negative pressure on the underside of the engine compartment and draw the hot it out.  They just use that 6" black garden edging with the rounded top. The rounded part is slit and slid over the front sway bar. Then little oval openings are cut right under the round part to pass hose clamps through to secure the air dam.  The nice thing is it is cheap, cuts easily (trim as needed) and bends when it hits a parking bumper. Not sure how that works on a Pinto but I thought  I'd mention it.

Shrouds help a lot in my experience, but I don't have room for one! I will probably end up with an aluminum radiator for an early Mustang with the inlet & outlet on the passenger side. The top hose will get rerouted and clear some space around the fan.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Reeves1

Quotenext 100° day will really test it

LOL !

Going to be 2 degrees above zero tonight  ;D

Wittsend

"And shaved the TB flange some more for hood clearance. I think now there's an impressive 1/8"."

In reference to the associated picture above, Yes, "been there done that." Being I did mine with a manual mill (aka a hand file) it tapers in many directions. I'd post an image but given the latest cyber attack I'm on my Linux computer and no pictures there.

As you and I have previously noted we had our engines in/out over half a dozen times before committing to welding the mounts. If one is committed to not cutting the hood I don't think most have any idea how "feeler gauge" close you need to get the oil pan to the rack and still wind up with similar clearances between the throttle body/upper intake and the hood.

Do you have a shroud on the fan?  From what I've studied they help a lot to improve airflow through a radiator. In my Tiger world it is a big issue.  They even block the venting on the sides of the radiator (horn openings) because they found at idle that the hot air recirculates.  Another thing they do is put and air dam skirt under the front valance. It helps to generate a negative pressure on the underside of the engine compartment and draw the hot it out.  They just use that 6" black garden edging with the rounded top. The rounded part is slit and slid over the front sway bar. Then little oval openings are cut right under the round part to pass hose clamps through to secure the air dam.  The nice thing is it is cheap, cuts easily (trim as needed) and bends when it hits a parking bumper. Not sure how that works on a Pinto but I thought  I'd mention it.

65ShelbyClone

Installed the Pro 5.0 shifter:


No space for bolts with the thicker flange, so


The throw is so short that it will take some getting used to.

And shaved the TB flange some more for hood clearance. I think now there's an impressive 1/8".


It was mild yesterday, but the flex fan does seems to be working better than the little electric pusher from before. The next 100° day will really test it.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

I haven't ruled-out what you did, but I'm also trying to plan for plumbing a front-mount intercooler and somewhere to route the charge tube to the throttle body. My current idea is to run it through the radiator support between the radiator and battery, so that's why I'm reluctant to go with a wider radiator.

Then a little voice inside tells me "originality is long gone; stop being fussy and just start cutting and welding to make it fit." ::)
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

The older Pinto's have a 17" radiator. The later ones have either a 17" - with side extender plate or a 20" radiator. On my '73 I cut the mount and shifted it over 3" overlapping the metal to maintain strength.  It has worked quite well. Otherwise everything fit as normal. Well, I did move the horn, but that is a minor thing.

And..., I might have moved the windshield washer tank too (can't remember where it was originally).  I opted to put the TC tank under the drivers fender like the factory did on the '88 T/C. Hopefully the picture tell the story.  Of course I did all that..., and even the cruise control and nearly nine years later is it all completed and functional? Of course not.

65ShelbyClone

I considered it with the scarcity of 2.0 radiators in mind, but everything I found indicates that a recore will likely cost several times what a new aluminum radiator will. Moving the top inlet and using a flex hose might provide some added fan clearance too. I'd go with a brass 2.3 radiator, but don't really want to cut up the whole support and there's not a lot of space for a wider one anyway.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Reeves1

Why not get that one re-cored ?

65ShelbyClone

I didn't have a '73 steering rack to fight with, fortunately.

I found a generic fan spacer that dates back to my high school days and first car, a 1965 Mustang. At 1" it was too long, so:


And standard bolts were a bit tall, so:


...which bought about 0.050" of space


Resulting in:




Yeah, it's as close as it looks.


This all happened last weekend. I took it for a drive and the cooling is much better in moderate weather, but it still climbs steadily on hills. It was a stop-gap; the radiator is practically falling apart with numerous sections of the fins detaching from the tubes. I think I saw a date stamp of 1984 when it was out.

With that, I'm shopping for an aluminum replacement that won't mean rebuilding the car to fit it. An early Mustang smallblock units seems likely, although it will require different hoses for the larger connections and probably trimming the lower radiator support for a larger core.

----------------------

In other news, I'm also looking at an eBay cheap turbo for the exhaust housing to see if it's feasible to machine a housing to fit the Borg Warner S256 that has been languishing in storage for...years now?
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

If you can even fit a fan in there you are doing better than I did.  I guess that is one of the advantages of using the stock intercooler (or is it really an interheater?).  That being I got to use a front mount electric fan.

65ShelbyClone

And it was a carrier bearing. A junkyard carrier + a Sunday afternoon = my daily transportation is fixed, so back to the toys.

I got a flex fan in yesterday and started trying to fit it this afternoon. The radiator had to come out in order to remove the water pump pulley bolts. Fan went on, then the radiator (barely) went back in for a test fit. As expected, the blades hit the upper radiator hose.

Did I mention it's only a 13" fan?

Anyway, I have a stock 2.3 fan spacer that will be faced-off to about 1/2" thickness and hopefully that will buy enough clearance for the hose without getting the fan and bolts too close to the radiator.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

I haven't really done anything to the Pinto except drive it occasionally. Been chasing a noise in my truck's differential that I think is a carrier bearing. :(
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

hotrodln

Hey did you get your IC figured out yet? I'm going to be using an old one from a volvo turbo wagon. it's BIG like a radiator, but the pipes come out on either side of the radiator. I'll be working on installing mine this weekend. Also I saw you were looking for an early hood ( maybe you found one) I have a nice one that i bought that didn't fit my 74....oh well. I'm in NY and your in CA.. keep us posted. Pat

65ShelbyClone

I thought I would pop in since there's been some activity.

Not a lot to report on the project. It's been a very rough month for me and a lot of people I know. The Pinto has been mostly neglected (but not forgotten!).

After I got everything back together and some shakedown runs done, it felt like it nosed-over more on the top end. It's always smelled rich, but it seemed worse, so I checked the fuel pressure and it's about 10psi too high according to the rail gauge. The regulator seems to be working, just at 10psi above correct. I'm going to try a different gauge first, then see whether the return line is causing a restriction. If it is, I have a coil of 3/8" brake line and -6 AN fittings that will get strung as a new feed line while the current 5/16 one will become the new larger return leg.

Quote from: suttertim on February 20, 2017, 02:57:18 PM
You have done a great job on this build and an even better job documenting it! I have an 88 donor and a 73 wagon that I hope to breed in the future. I will definitely be looking back at this thread throughout the pain-staking process. I'm still gathering the basic mechanical parts needed at this point. Do you know anyone that may have 2.3 frame mounts or an oil pan?

Thanks!

The 2.3 mounts and oil pan were probably the most difficult parts for me to find. The pans pop up on fleaBait once in a while and you might find the mounts on the classifieds here. I was preparing to build some frame mounts and use the stock 'Bird engine brackets with universal isolators when a member here offered a whole Pinto set for trade.

I stumbled upon the C-Line seven-quart pan on my engine. Now that I have it for reference and a nice TIG welder, I might try making my own from the rear-sump Thunderbird pan. That's actually what C-Line did to begin with.

Quote from: Wittsend on February 21, 2017, 11:08:31 AM
I must agree. 65SC has done a great job of documenting and keeping us up to date on his project. Being this car was only sold about 8 miles from me I had at one time contemplated getting myself a second Pinto. I never did get over there to see it, but because of the "closeness" (shall we say) of my having considering this very car I was pleasantly surprised to see what became of it.

Not to steal any of 65SC's thunder, I thought I'd mention that I also did a '73 wagon with a '88 donor TC.  I have a two part write up about it (sorry no pictures). The link to the second part is at the end of the first part. Hope you can find something helpful. http://www.fordpinto.com/general-pinto-talk/so-you-want-to-build-a-turbo-pinto-part-1/msg76893/#msg76893  For reference 65SC's project is more advanced than mine. I kept everything basically stock in the switch over.

Thanks! Post away; it helps record and archive all that hard-learned information.

Quote from: Wittsend on February 21, 2017, 07:30:42 PM
All the best to you.  I believe (if I'm correct) both 65SC and I had our engines in/out seven times before we would commit to welding in the motor mounts!  The '88 wire harness is a mess.  I spent days sorting out what I didn't need and still had about 20 "I'm not sure" wires.  I think he runs a different control system and maybe wired it himself???  His build is a good one to follow. He is very straightforward and will state what did and didn't work.

I think the engine came out closer to a dozen times. Yeah, the EFI is a MegaSquirt-II  and the harness was completely disassembled, shortened, and reassembled for it. My '86 harness wasn't as integrated as an '87-88 harness, but the result still wasn't really worth the effort IMO. It only served the purpose of reducing cost. Next time I'll probably shell out on new parts and wire it like a rally car or trophy truck with threaded metal connectors. At the very least I plan to use them for bulkheads going through the firewall.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

suttertim

I'm really leaning towards one of the premade harnesses to simplify the process. I plan to contact the mfr. before the purchase. Big Timmay posted their contact info on a thread. They may be able to customize a harness just for my application even further.

Wittsend

All the best to you.  I believe (if I'm correct) both 65SC and I had our engines in/out seven times before we would commit to welding in the motor mounts!  The '88 wire harness is a mess.  I spent days sorting out what I didn't need and still had about 20 "I'm not sure" wires.  I think he runs a different control system and maybe wired it himself???  His build is a good one to follow. He is very straightforward and will state what did and didn't work.

suttertim

Excellent project summary Tom! I have read it many times over the past couple years because I have a 73 wagon and an 88 SC up here in Norcal. I parked them close together hoping that they would crossbreed naturally but no luck so far. LOL! I have recently read 65SC detailed build thread as well and the two compliment each other nicely. He has done a great job of documenting the build step by step! I'm still collecting a few more parts before I begin the long process of making these cars one and run again.
Thank you both for your time and effort to help the rest of us out with our projects!

Wittsend

I must agree. 65SC has done a great job of documenting and keeping us up to date on his project. Being this car was only sold about 8 miles from me I had at one time contemplated getting myself a second Pinto. I never did get over there to see it, but because of the "closeness" (shall we say) of my having considering this very car I was pleasantly surprised to see what became of it.

Not to steal any of 65SC's thunder, I thought I'd mention that I also did a '73 wagon with a '88 donor TC.  I have a two part write up about it (sorry no pictures). The link to the second part is at the end of the first part. Hope you can find something helpful. http://www.fordpinto.com/general-pinto-talk/so-you-want-to-build-a-turbo-pinto-part-1/msg76893/#msg76893  For reference 65SC's project is more advanced than mine. I kept everything basically stock in the switch over.

suttertim

You have done a great job on this build and an even better job documenting it! I have an 88 donor and a 73 wagon that I hope to breed in the future. I will definitely be looking back at this thread throughout the pain-staking process. I'm still gathering the basic mechanical parts needed at this point. Do you know anyone that may have 2.3 frame mounts or an oil pan?

74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

65ShelbyClone

As of 5:48pm PST, it's back and running with the redone intake and charge plumbing. Not sure I like the abrupt throttle response of the non-progressive 65mm TB, but I was wearing boots and the cable needs some adjustment, so maybe it can be fine-tuned.

The blow off valve is a little slow to respond at very low boost and slow roll-offs even with my efforts to reduce the spring force, but it seems to be alright at moderate boost and higher. It's also surprisingly loud.  :o  Not what I was after, but that's OK because it will add to the sleeper surprise factor.  8)


'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

Didn't get finished last week partly because of not having the right selection of hoses for plumbing the new vacuum and breather lines. Got some of that and then decided I'd rather not remove the TPS sensor from the original Throttle body in case I need to put the intake back on for whatever reason. Got another '86 TPS sensor in today and slotted the holes for adjustment.

Then I discovered that the 4.6L throttle body I've built all this around had a wider TPS bolt spacing than the '86.  >:(

The key word is "had." I thought I was dead in the water for another week or two, but fortunately there was enough space to move the bolt holes with some heavy thread inserts. Barely.





Also got some goodies I have to show off.  ;D



Now I can more safely build and use a longer shift arm as the Pro 5.0 Power Tower has adjustable stops. Years ago I had an '89 Mustang GT and put a similar B&M shifter on it. IMO, it's one of the best ways to improve the driving experience of a T5. Even the guy I sold the car to was impressed.



Not obvious from the picture is that those are 95lb injectors. They'll easily supply about 500bhp on gas. Figured this way I only had to buy them once.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

The second update in a single month and it's the last one of the year.

Decided to postpone fitting an intercooler in lieu of getting the car running.


The blow off valve is going to fit between the valve cover and intake.


The intake is fully welded now. Part of it even looks like I can pretend to weld.


I was toying with the idea of a front-mounted Turbo Coupe IC. Might actually get another and fit one on each side of the hood latch bracket...with different tanks of course.


Ran out yesterday an bought another used intercooler because it was local and cheap.


It would require a shoehorn and cussing to fit in the Pinto though. It's possible without cutting the car, but just barely and I'm not sure I'll go to the trouble.


Hopefully it will be buttoned up and running tomorrow. Lots of welding to do on those pie cut bends...
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.