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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

A 1972 turbo swap adventure

Started by 65ShelbyClone, July 20, 2014, 12:39:02 PM

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65ShelbyClone

I got the exhaust essentially done this evening. It was done a week ago, but the v-band flanges warped from welding and were leaking. They are the lipped stainless flanges, so sanding them flat would be a lot of work and not guarantee anything. Instead I made some small gaskets out of desoldering wick (woven copper ribbon) and coated them with high-temp RTV. Seems to have done the job.
I had to use the actuator from a Chinese ebay turbo that the wastegate assembly came from because the flapper post is bigger than the stock one. I could tell it has a stiffer spring and after setting it up with stock preload, it makes 15psi on the gate alone. That's alright, but I'd prefer having the 10psi option and will have to make a new end that fits the old actuator threads and the new flapper.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: Wittsend on December 19, 2022, 04:49:35 PM
I think that is the first time I've seen the turbo exhaust fit (much less at a generous 3") with the factory fan motor! That is quite a feat. I used the MG motor/fan that gets run backwards with the factory set up. Marginal but something is better than nothing. I believe there was a modern Dodge fan someone else said worked too.
I should point out before anyone gets their hopes up that the fan motor pictured is in fact a shorter VDO PM3652 unit. I had it on the shelf and was forced to use it when I installed the current Frankenstein turbo; a Borg-Warner S2B with a Chinese Garrett/Ford T3 housing machined to fit on it. The turbine outlet bolt pattern was rotated about 10° from the stock location and moved the wastegate elbow rearward at least 3/8 of an inch I didn't really have.

The downpipe layout I have now would probably hit a stock fan motor. It would be much easier to notch for clearance though.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

firepinto

I've been seeing a lot of drag racing cars using a battery that is super small.  Mike Finnegan used one on the side of his radiator support on Blasphemi.  Which did fall off I believe lol.  But I see most are mounting them under the dash next to all their EFI units.  They look like the size of a 4 pack of butter.  I was thinking of trying one in the fender in front of the passenger side front wheel.
'79 Pinto auto hatch back with an '80 2.3L and 4 speed transplant.  A 2.3 Turbo and T5 are waiting for the next transplant.

Plans changed, going V8 with TKX!

oldkayaker

Nice fabrication to get a 3" exhaust tube to fit.  Below is a link to the thread showing a Dodge Caravan fan motor being used for increased clearance.  There is always the option of using a A/C heater box which relocates the fan motor to inside the car.Turbo swap 1980 Runabout (fordpinto.com)
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Wittsend

I think that is the first time I've seen the turbo exhaust fit (much less at a generous 3") with the factory fan motor! That is quite a feat. I used the MG motor/fan that gets run backwards with the factory set up. Marginal but something is better than nothing. I believe there was a modern Dodge fan someone else said worked too.






65ShelbyClone

The car has a tediously-tied tarp over the back due to a hatch leak and that prevented me from getting good pics of the battery box install. As soon as that was done and the car driveable, I tore it apart again to start tackling exhaust.  ::) 3" exhaust.
I managed to get about 1/2" of clearance between the vent motor and bellhousing. Might put a short section of wrap on it by the bellhousing. I finally have an O2 sensor bung that fits under the car away from turbine heat. For some reason I included a second one near the stock location anyway.  ???
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

Well, I kept the back seat and routed the 0awg starter cable under the car instead. The charge cable and solenoid wiring goes through the driver's side door sill where I originally put the fuel pump wiring. I left the original solenoid on the fender simply because it was easier to tie into the stud on it than move the old charge wire/fusible link across the engine bay. Who knows, it might be useful as an emergency spare some day. I'll be doing more work on the car this weekend and will get some photos then.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

Quote from: oldkayaker on September 28, 2022, 06:27:07 AM
I was able to install a 24 size battery in the right rear of my previous 71 runabout.  It was a lot of work and very inconvenient.
I have started to seriously consider removing the rear seat and putting the battery box in the passenger side seat well.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

What kills me is that the 151R is a small battery that's factory for bunch of modern-ish cars, but it's twice the price of a 24F and twice as hard to find.  ???
Since there's nowhere to fit an oval 20" muffler, I got a minimalist Flowmaster FlowFX 71419 round one to tuck somewhere in the tunnel. Then I can run just pipe over the axle and out the back.
The fuel lines were also leaking when I primed the pump recently. Tightening the clamps fixed that, but they need to be done properly for obvious reasons and I picked up some more -6AN fittings and hose to facilitate that. Plan is to remove the original 1/4" vapor line, use the original 5/16 feed line as a return, and run a new 3/8 hard line for supply. It should also clean up some plumbing around the tank and add a better high-pressure filter downstream of the pump. Fun fact: late model Pontiac GTOs use a filter much like the mid-'80s Fords with Bundy fittings on both ends, but the fittings are 3/8" instead of 5/16. Problem is they're hard to find now.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

I hated to put my battery in the drivers side/front of the engine compartment, but I didn't want it encumbering the ability to put large items in the back of the wagon. Obviously the battery can't go where it originally was intended what with the turbo now being there. Just to balance out the drivers weight the passenger front would have been better but I have the T/C relay box and the VAM hose (VAM/air cleaner is inside front fender) running through there. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do.




oldkayaker

I was able to install a 24 size battery in the right rear of my previous 71 runabout.  It was a lot of work and very inconvenient.  After doing a lot measuring, I cut and welded some of the interior sheet metal creating a recessed box/tray area for the battery behind the right rear wheel well and behind interior stock paneling.  It was very tight fit (no room for a battery box) so rubber padding was used to protect the battery plastic case.  I seem to remember even modifying the side light socket to create more room.  When done, the only visible evidence of the battery was by looking up inside the right wheel well where part of the metal box/tray could be seen.  In order to get to battery for maintenance, the interior panel needed to be removed along with the hatch spring assist arm which takes a while.  J.C. Penny had just come out with a maintenance free battery with a long warranty which was used.

Unfortunately this was a long time ago and I have no photos.  I used the car for towing and had reinforced the rear floor area with bolted in angle iron.  The car was rear ended, crumpling up the exterior sheet metal above the rear wheel wells.  I believe the angle iron reinforcements saved the gas tank and battery.  The insurance company totaled car.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

65ShelbyClone

Turns out the Optima 151R battery was done for. By this time last year little 151R batteries were averaging $150 and availability was questionable. It had to be moved anyway, so I opted to use a bigger spare battery and move it all to the hatch. Now the hard part and running theme is figuring out where to fit it. The gas tank has to come out in order to put it on the driver's side. It can't go on the other side if I want a spare tire(and do).
The steering wheel I was going to put in it didn't have enough dish, so at least I got this one installed.

'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

I took a break from the Pinto for a while and focused on getting a new road bicycle because my old one was so decrepit from years of hard riding. Then I got a used backup bike. Then a used mountain bike. Then parts and accessories and gear. I'm not done, but the car cruising season will be here before I know it and want to get some in when the weather is good.

Last Friday I took the car out and nothing was out of the ordinary. It's still loud, but I notice the turbo sounds much better after the time away. Then on Saturday I needed to move it and the battery was flat. It was showing ~12.2v open circuit, but a small accessory load of 4A pulled it right down into the high-6v range. I'm going to try a desulfating charger on it, but that may not work since it's an Optima AGM. It's getting replaced anyway so nothing to lose by trying. Since the battery is getting relocated, now I have to decide if it's worth the hassle and expense of finding group 51 AGM batteries and using the billet tray I already have or getting a regular battery box and using a standard group 24F. Total cost is about the same.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

Well, I have never TIG welded so I for one will not comment on the welds.  My son has TIG-ed and says it is a learned skill. Life gets interesting as you get older. I've been a car guy my whole life. I majored in High School Machine Shop and Welding but back in the mid 1970's they were still "old school" methods.

I spent a year at LA Trade Tech College in their Machine Shop program. But frankly I got frustrated. I knew that in the automotive/engine building world you need to work at times within 10,000th's of an inch. Maybe it was just the equipment we had to work with but I'd measure, see I needed to turn something .003 and set the lathe to cut .0025 as a cautionary cut and find it cut .004! Smog laws were getting stronger every year, performance was down as much as high horsepower insurance rates were up.

I just decided to shift my teen year dreams of working in a speed shop and got into Television Production which I also had an interest in.  I've always wanted to improve my machining/welding skills but now in my 60's I've concluded my son is far more capable than I am. Today my struggle is to cram my needs into his "busy" life. So, regardless of the results you may not be pleased with there is still admiration for your perseverance.

65ShelbyClone

I finally got the end tanks welded on a little while ago and that was a harrowing experience. I have a #9 and #17 TIG torch and found out the hard way that the gas hose to my larger #17 had completely dry-rotted its whole length and was losing the shielding gas. I started to get suspicious when 50cfh was hardly coming out the torch end. I ordered a new 25ft hose and used the little aircooled #9 torch in the interim. It gets hot very fast and requires frequent cool-downs.

It's only the 1.5th time I've TIG welded aluminum and it looks like it, not to mention I had to remake one of the tanks because the first turned out so bad. There were a lot of things I did wrong and/or the hard way and I suppose the important part is what I learned. The biggest one is to start with new, clean metal.
I still have to make some threaded bosses for mounting the intercooler and weld them onto the top and bottom, but once that's done I can bolt it onto the car and start relocating the battery.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

I've been working on the car, just not updating everything here as it's done. I removed the hood latch, cut-down the grille/hood latch/front apron support to clear the/an intercooler, put the ugly spare hood on and installed hood pins, spaced the grille out by an inch like a '74-76 car, and haven't taken pictures of any of that. Yet.

I took a deep breath and cut the tanks off a Spearco bar & plate intercooler and drew some templates for a new "back door" tank design that will make plumbing less difficult.



And I probably would have had most of it welded as of this writing, but the TIG welder's cooling fan bearings packed up and it was a three-hour venture getting it apart and fixed. (it's a 700lb transformer machine) After the intercooler gets welded, next is plumbing it, relocating the battery, installing bigger injectors, and...I dunno, maybe a muffler?
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

I figure this can serve as an example of what may be necessary to stuff a 2.3T EFI drivetrain in a pre-'74 Pinto. A common attitude that I found before starting the project years ago was that it's simple, straightforward, easy, etc. This undoubtedly came from people who had never tried it and at best knew that Pintos came with a 2.3 sometime in production, so surely it would be simple, straightforward, and easy.

It is none of those things. Nothing actually fits in the car without modification, moving something else, cutting, welding, or making custom parts outright. Well, except the T3 turbo's wastegate actuator. Maybe I'll type up a list of my own gotchas some time and add it to your "So you want to do a turbo swap" thread.
Anyway, the car is running again and I drove it a bit. It's back to an open downpipe for now and sounds more awful than I remember. Surprisingly it also makes no turbo noises anymore; the T3 was quite loud. Boost response is better than expected although worse than stock. Boost recovery between gears is perceptibly slower, probably due to the larger turbine and compressor. The wastegate actuator's baseline ended up being a few psi lower than stock and turning the controller up from 23% to 50 brought peak boost to exactly 14.7psi on the data logs. The pulls weren't long enough to see if it creeps higher due to running out of road.
I'm going to break down and remote-mount the battery(moving something) so plumbing an FMIC and working on the engine will be less of a headache. Pretty sure I still have everything to build a full exhaust also plus some nice v-band flanges to make it cleaner.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

Yea, being cheap like I am I used the factory '88 T/C exhaust..., yes..., even the convertor. Well..., once I got to needing a muffler (under the rear seat) everything changed beyond that. The down pipe dips a bit too low so I go over speed bumps with care. I had to slightly indent the frame rail and the outside of the down pipe. It was a little of this, a little of that but I had sufficient clearance without anything looking like it had been "beat on." I also remember (it has been about 12 years now) my son and I taking the lengthy exhaust system, straddling it in the press to bending the pipe in some fashion.

Thanks for posting your progress. You are one of the few turbo guys that posts anything these days (where are all those 'going turbo' guys from years ago???). That and the fact your car is from Simi Valley (the next city over), I had considered purchasing it - and for all these years seeing it was in good hands has made it an interesting "follow."

65ShelbyClone

I hoped to avoid moving the battery (again) and can get an FMIC in without doing that, but it would sure free up a heap of valuable real estate. There is so much going on in that front corner of the car. Battery, Vreg & harness, distributor, alternator, throttle body, blow off valve, and soon intercooler plumbing.
Spent most of the day pulling the heater box and changing the core and fan motor. Once that was done and I had some turbo clearance, I went to bolt the downpipe back on only to find that it now hits the frame because the Chinese turbine housing doesn't have the wastegatbow bolt pattern in the same place as a real Garrett part.  >:( I had to cut and weld the downpipe on an angle up by the turbo and in the process the MIG welder gas regulator got stuck or ruptured or something and wasn't working right.  >:( I limped it along and got things glued together anyway. Now the downpipe fits around the frame, but no longer reaches the rest of the exhaust. At that point I'd had enough and called it a day.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

I'm guessing that when you go to an intercooler (Assumed FMIC) you will have to move the battery to the trunk anyway. These 2.3's in a 71-73 seem to have feeler gage clearance in all four directions.

65ShelbyClone

I converted back to an external regulator, moved the alternator, cut/lengthened/modified the charge air tube to fit until an intercooler is fitted, and fortunately didn't have to run to the parts store; somehow I had three new 43" alternator belts for a 2.3 Pinto. There's about 0.020" of space between the Vreg and battery and maybe 1/4" between the alternator and battery hold-down.











Now the exhaust elbow hits the the heater motor thanks to the Chinese turbine housing.


Other than pulling the heater box and changing the motor for a shorter one that I already have, it's nearly ready to run.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

Not much to post about the Pinto right now other than it's all torn apart and nothing is going smoothly. I forgot how tight everything fits in the car because all the engine wrenching I did was with it on a stand and then I stuck the engine & trans in together.
The 3G alternator and A/C mount had to come out before the turbo+manifold could, then it couldn't go back because now there's a bigger turbo there. Fortunately I have a 2.3 Pinto low-mount set. Unfortunately the 3G won't fit in the lower bracket unless I swing the alternator out pretty far....which can't be done because there's a battery in the way. The Pinto brackets also change pulley alignment and only allow for one belt with my setup and that's not enough for a 130A 3G. What I've had to do is take three regular 1G alternators I had shelved to make one good one and then convert back to an external voltage regulator for the time being. :dodgy:  My hope is to have it back together and running this weekend even if I don't get an intercooler installed.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

It's a Hardinge Toolroom lathe with a Sony DRO. It's pretty nice. My only gripe is that it's not set up for metric thread pitches.
Assuming you still have the ECU controlling the boost solenoid, it sounds like it might be detecting knock. The ECU then reduces boost back to 10psi and pulls a bunch of timing. It's an aggressive strategy and the engines really nose-over when it happens, but it keeps them from blowing up.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

That's something I'd never have thought of doing!  What lathe do you have? I'm limited to my son's Atlas 618/Craftsman 101 (never can remember which it is) or even worse my Horrible Fright lathe I got at their parking lot sale for $100 (and not sure it is worth even that).


Regarding the waste gate actuator; due to rotted sheet metal at the battery area I replaced the sheet metal. I built the panel in such a way (indented) that it allowed clocking the actuator just to the left of the frame rail.  Initially I didn't have any issues but for some time now the car will built boost and power and then it just seems that the wastegate will pop wide open (as opposed to a regulated control) and the car falls on its face with a whoosh sound.


I've pressurized the factory intercooler ('88 with a IHI small turbo) to 20 PSI and never got anything but the tiniest of porous casting bubbles. The rubber hoses all appear intact and the clamps are tight. The boost gage (factory) will easily hit 15 pounds but as the RPMs rise (about 4,000 - 4,500 RPM) the car just falls flat. I'm guessing the wastegate is popping wide open instead of regulating and perhaps the clocking of the housing/actuator is the reason??? What do you think?




65ShelbyClone

Suppose you have a couple diesel wastegate actuators designed for 25-30psi and want them to open at 10psi like a stock 2.3T. If you're me, cut the bottoms off, take out the springs, install stock WGA guts, and weld two halves back together.





Stocker on the left compared to diesel parts:


Fortunately my welds aren't easy to see. I hadn't used a TIG in a few years and that was the thinnest metal I've ever done.


The aforementioned oil inlet adapter.


And it's finally starting to look official. Next is some paint on the WGA and probably a color change for the compressor.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

I had a lot planned for today, but got bogged-down making a turbo oil inlet adapter so I can use the stock oil line (the S2E's inlet isn't threaded and can only use a bolt-on flange), shortening the turbo-to-manifold studs(which are A286 stainless and not nice), and removing a factory T3 wastegate can from its bracket. The wastegate was already bad, so it got cut open and the spot welds in the bottom were milled away until it fell off. I'm going to cut the bottom off one of the Borg Warner actuators, put the Garrett spring in it, and carefully weld it back together. The cans are almost identical, so I expect the opening pressure to be in the same ballpark as stock.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

Turbo systems have been a fascination of mine for a long time and engines since childhood so I get a little enthusiastic sometimes. I've also come to realize that the automotive experience should be about what you enjoy and not strictly about what what would be ideal for a given build.

That is partly what drove the turbo choice. The yellow turbo has six main blades and the S200 and Holset have seven. Blade pass frequency is a big contributor to compressor noise and six will generate frequencies that are 14% closer to the midrange of human hearing than a seven will. A larger-than stock compressor will also spin at a lower speed to the same effect.

The stock T3 is loud below about 5psi when the shaft speed is relatively low. It then climbs rapidly until its BPF goes into the 12-14kHz range where most adults' hearing isn't as sensitive anymore. The S2E will drop that to ~8-9kHz range.
The other option was to machine an HKS T-51R style surge ring insert for either the S200 or Holset, but I'm not crazy about the note on seven-blade wheels or how obnoxiously loud they are. Search youtube for "T51R mod" and you'll see.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Wittsend

I'm no expert on all the "ology" of these turbo mods (why I stuck with the factory set up) but it sure seems you have done your homework.

The heater motor: There have been a number of options. The one I used was the MGB motor and fan, but reverse wired. I mentioned it numerous times here. There was another fan motor someone used that would be more readily available. Perhaps you can find that as I can't recall the application.

All the best in achieving your goal. I got my stock '88 T/C swap in and basically got occupied elsewhere. The Pinto runs/drives but needs refinement. Haven't driven it in a while as all the engine parts for my Corvair SW are in the back. The blessing and curse of having a Pinto wagon.

65ShelbyClone

I should probably be working on the interior and wiring instead, but I wanna go fast. And hear cool noises while I do.

What do you do when you have a very specific factory Garrett turbo configuration and want to replace it with a diesel turbo that isn't a Holset?
One of these is less like the others...

Ever feel alone in a crowd?


You buy a cheap T3 turbine housing with the Ford five-bolt pattern and take some measurements. You find out that there's barely enough iron to bore and profile it to fit on the diesel cartridge.



I needed some extra clamps and the housing was already centered in the mill, so it functioned as a fixture to do so.


What you end up with is a practically drop-in 54/61mm Borg-Warner S2E that bolts onto the 2.3T manifold and uses the stock wastegate elbow. Incidentally, the housing also fits on the closely related S200-56 that succeeded the S2E(which is the one second from left above).





The best guess I've been able to make is that it has a compressor map somewhere between the 53 and 55mm AirWerks S2B. This means that it may get pretty close to the surge line depending on when it starts making boost. This is taking the stock top end into account; it probably won't be a concern when the induction is addressed. I can always use the boost control to make a rising curve that stays under surge if needed. Or I can use the S200 with its surge ring housing.
I also want to get away from using the stock ~2 1/8" turbine elbow, but like everything with this little car, that requires moving something else out of the way. Specifically, pulling the heater box and installing a shorter motor to make space for a 3" downpipe. Even without doing that, the alternator is where the compressor has to go so that means finally putting it on the driver's side where a set of empty Pinto brackets have been bolted for...a few years?

The big dent in the compressor outlet isn't something I'm worried about; it ought to seal anyway. If it doesn't, I have an aluminum elbow to weld on it.

That "turbone" on the far left is one of those $98 ebay specials I bought for parts. The specs in the listing were a pack of lies of course, but it turned out to fall right between 46 and 50-trim T04E compressors with an actual stage III turbine. Those compressors are actually well-suited to ~250-350hp 2.3Ts so I almost used it first. Who knows how long it might last though.
There are also more parts waiting at the PO like an intercooler and plumbing. More on that as it develops.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

65ShelbyClone

The only sense I can make of it is that CA land is really expensive, drag strips aren't usually that profitable, and absolutely nobody wants one in their backyard. In CA, the land of "green" and renewable energy mania, I can't get E85 fuel closer than 60mi in any direction. Not that it's great stuff out of the pump, but I do have the hardware to run it if I wanted.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.