Mini Classifieds

1977 Cruiser
Date: 06/29/2019 06:28 am
1977 Pinto Hatchback Parts

Date: 08/29/2020 05:31 pm
rear hatch back louvers

Date: 04/18/2017 12:44 pm
72 pinto drag car

Date: 06/22/2017 07:19 am
78 windshield trim
Date: 02/01/2020 08:46 am
1978 FORD PINTO PONY FOR SALE 17.000 MILES !!!!!!!!!!!!

Date: 06/25/2021 12:59 am
Front sway bar

Date: 07/23/2018 08:19 pm
Wanted: Oil Breather F0ZZ6A485A "87-8 from 2.3L Turbo
Date: 08/06/2021 02:23 pm
Needed:73 Pinto center console/change tray
Date: 12/09/2018 11:35 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,573
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 1,185
  • Online ever: 1,681 (March 09, 2025, 10:00:10 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 612
  • Total: 612
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

cam degreeing

Started by 82expghost, April 22, 2014, 04:43:37 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

dick1172762

For a 8500+ cam and a big basket, go to 4m.net and see what the dirt track boys use.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

amc49

On the CBF website we used to follow this guy, no way is HE short shifting, that car is trying to come loose even in 4th gear and all wheel drive. Simply awesome for a four cylinder, we had trouble getting there with 720 inch big motors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiSptlw-L_U

amc49

Yeah, he's not spinning it hard at all there. Almost like shortshifting...................

Wittsend

"i cant afford to shift, if i shift with a 100 feet left to go before the turn, the shift will be in vain,"

Exactly how fast are you going at an expected 8,500 RPM that 100 ft. before a turn you wouldn't seriously be (and have been) on the brakes and down shifting?  Is this some type of road race course?  You mention "the turn," are you speaking of a specific turn or turns in general? The reason being every course has situations were things can not be ideal. Even race crews with multiple rear ratios and various ratio transmissions have to compromise for the greater good knowing there are specific situations that could be better.

There are people here who genuinely like to help others.  But it can get confounding when goals seem unobtainable (or at least sustainable) for purposes that don't seem to add up.  If you could be more explicit about what you are attempting to attain, I think the collective brains here can either help you get there, or point out that the goal is hampered with impracticality.

65ShelbyClone

And there again, it's wholly unnecessary for making just 300hp. Or even double that.

Watch this video and when the in-car view comes up, take note of how high the tach doesn't go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf1ShwOousI

He hardly takes that car to 7000 and it goes bottom 10s/high 9s in the quarter mile.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

amc49

Worse than that, 8500 is totally unpractical rpm for a street car, you'll find out soon enough. If you have some sort of shifting issues then changing trans to get what you want will be the cure there. You will be way past 'a pain to drive'............and being rough on a car and 8500 rpm do not go together either. A true 8500 rpm motor will be like a fine piece of jewelry, and easily broken.

82expghost

it diddnt fit before i had it machined, i thaught it would go together also, because your not the only one to tell me that, its about a 1/4 inch difference on the exducer, and about 1/8 on inducer on the exhaust side compared the the 4 xr4ti turbos i have, i figured the bigger exhaust side would slow the turbo down resulting in a later spool, if it still doesnt do what i want i will keep upgrading till i find it.

the turbo is least of my worries, i just want the extra rpms, i cant afford to shift, if i shift with a 100 feet left to go before the turn, the shift will be in vain, im not looking for rediculus power, 300 to mabe 350, i went kinda big on the clutch and crank, rods, pistons valves springs because the motor is going to be abused.

i need a cam that will get me to the good 8500 range, works good at 20-24#, dont care if it lopes or is a pain to drive
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

don33

Quote from: amc49 on April 24, 2014, 12:04:25 AM
Not on this planet or any other will a Ranger stock roller flow enough to turn 8500 and make good power.

neither will the turbo, it will run out of wind long before 8500.

65ShelbyClone

There is no difference between the compressors nor turbine wheels in the T3 turbos that came on 2.3T engines. There are no modifications needed whatsoever to switch between a 0.48 and 0.63 housing on a stock T3.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

82expghost

.63 ar, its the biggest that came on the 2.3s, it has a .48 exhaust side machined out to except the bigger wheel and has tighter tolerences, most of the .63 have cracked and are hard to find.
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

65ShelbyClone

A "Garrett 64?" The "hard to get one?"

???

I'm left guessing that it's an oversized turbine wheel, in which case....what does the ".64" refer to and why is it stuffed into a little 0.48 A/R housing? What compressor is it attached to?
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

82expghost

i have a garrett 64. one of the hard to get one, it has a .48 hot side specialy machined out to the .64 with tight tolerences. around town and on our tracks down here all i need really is 1 and 2, and my gearing to second gear gets to 68 if i hit 6600 rpm, so now turbo should make it quicker, so i need the extra rpms to take alittle longer to keep from shifting, my buddy got mad because my pinto could beat his m3 on track, so he went turbo, so im going turbo and need to stay ahead, been looking at the boport 2.1
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

65ShelbyClone

Are you after 8500rpm for a reason or just because?

You don't need to twist it that hard to make 300hp. Expect the IHI turbo to have a short life in that pursuit, however.
'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

82expghost

well now, i cant have that, now i need a cam, sucks i need to pull the head back apart, now i think i should just go all in and make it solid lift, im glad you all have experence on this. i know i want to hit the 8500 range, cam sujestions?
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

Wittsend

AMC 49 is correct.

  I have "Stock 88 T-Bird Stuff" with a Ranger Roller and factory boost. Everything pretty much runs out of wind between 4,500 RPM - 5,000 RPM.  The "fun" of my Turbo Pinto is to drive away like a normal Pinto, shift and gradually press down on the accelerator. Where as a stock Pinto will have glacial acceleration - the Turbo Pinto is more like an avalanche. It exponentiation gathers speed, but like the avalanche it is quickly over. 

amc49

Not on this planet or any other will a Ranger stock roller flow enough to turn 8500 and make good power.

82expghost

roller cam as in ranger, i was just wanting 300, stinger performance says that should be doable on the stock 88 tbird stuff, also , what should my base fuel pressure be? the reason for the over kill is that im planning on being very rough on the car
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily

amc49

Reaching for the stars are we?

With 24# boost and 8500 rpm you are in pro race territory, you need to be setting the cam on a dyno run jack. No one number is going to fit you, you need to run it and change it a few times. You better be running different injectors and a tune on the PCM as well.

82expghost

24+ pounds of boost, roller cam, front mount, brown tops, 88 tbird ecu, ported polished, dual valve springs, looking for 8500 rpms, so my question is, what would be a good degree for the cam for alittle more power, advance or retard? oh and 110 race gas
98 taurtus, now in heaven
82 exp, the race car, cancer took it away
77 pinto, weekend warrior
92 grand marquis, daily