Mini Classifieds

1974 Pinto Misc. moldings & parts

Date: 12/20/2016 10:47 pm
72 Runabout for Sale- Washington

Date: 02/28/2024 02:07 pm
KYB shocks

Date: 02/08/2017 07:09 pm
pinto for sale
Date: 09/11/2016 09:47 pm
74 hood
Date: 07/03/2017 03:46 pm
73 2.0 Timing Crank Gear & Woodruff key WANTED
Date: 09/01/2017 07:52 am
Looking for Radiator and gas tank
Date: 10/24/2018 07:41 am
Need lower control arms for 1973 pinto
Date: 02/27/2017 10:10 pm
1977 Pinto for parts

Date: 10/10/2018 06:25 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
  • Total Members: 7,896
  • Latest: tdok
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,577
  • Total Topics: 16,269
  • Online today: 449
  • Online ever: 2,670 (May 09, 2025, 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 312
  • Total: 312
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Pinto won't start

Started by redwinggirl, August 12, 2013, 03:36:19 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

pintoguy76

I agree. Ignition switch or neutral start switch.  However some ignition switches are rare and hard to find. I think the one on for my 74 is not listed at any parts store... can get them on ebay tho, but they arent very cheap.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

amc49

Rocket science...................LOL.

HOSS429

Quote from: 71pintoracer on November 12, 2013, 06:00:20 PM
, you need a new mechanic.
i was kinda thinking that as well .. it can only be a few things .. ignition switch ( at the bottom of the steering column ) .. or neutral safety switch .. if it starts with a  toggle switch  the solenoid must be good ..but if you can live with it go for it ...

71pintoracer

Geeeezzzzz.......it's a freakin' Pinto for crying out loud! If your "mechanic" (I use that term loosely) can't diag a simple issue like this, you need a new mechanic. It starts with a remote start switch hooked to the solenoid, correct? That eliminates everything except getting 12v to the S terminal from.....the ignition switch! Put your voltmeter on the S terminal (with the wire still attached) turn to start and see what the reading is. Pretty sure Tonij1960 already asked this so..... :)
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

redwinggirl

so, after all this I finally took it to a mechanic to figure it out. At least I'm not stupid cause he couldn't track the electronic gremlin down, either. Putting a push button start in it.

pintoguy76

Was this issue ever solved?
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: HOSS429 on September 14, 2013, 03:28:46 PMthe most simple of things can stump the unfamiliar ....(
Man, ain't that the truth..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

HOSS429

Quote from: amc49 on September 14, 2013, 03:04:14 PM
Yes, way too much fish flopping around here, the trouble should've been found in five minutes..................
very well would be if any of us were on the scene but that cant happen in the interweb world ..the most simple of things can stump the unfamiliar ....(

jeremysdad

Quote from: amc49 on September 14, 2013, 03:04:14 PM.....not like a PCM car with elevendyfortytwo other things to check.

Sounds you've fought with a GM OBD 1.5, as well. lol

amc49

Yes, way too much fish flopping around here, the trouble should've been found in five minutes..................not  like a PCM car with elevendyfortytwo other things to check.

Once a solenoid has vaporized some of its' internal contact point, it can occasionally not work at one application then go back to working fine. Pull it apart and find the contacts all eroded and pitted to make semi-contact.

jeremysdad

Quote from: tonij1960 on September 14, 2013, 02:12:03 PM
Theres really no advantage of a test light over a dvom if you can use it at all correctly. I worked on cb radios tvs vcrs 15-watt per channel high end audio equipment, have some engineering studies and hobby experience fabricating pc boards designing and building analog and digital circuits.

A Pinto electrical system is a piece of cake for me. Get those three or four readings I mentioned and go from there. A circuit is a circle so we have to follow it around thats all no jumping ll over the place. Lets get this Pinto going already.

Agreed. Jumper wires from 'I' on the solenoid to '+' on the coil, then one from the hot post to 'S' on the solenoid. It should start. If not, battery connections. If so, bad solenoid.

I didn't re-read this entire novel, is it actually cranking and not starting, or is it a no crank scenario? :) lol

ToniJ1960

 Theres really no advantage of a test light over a dvom if you can use it at all correctly. I worked on cb radios tvs vcrs 150-watt per channel high end audio equipment, have some engineering studies and hobby experience fabricating pc boards designing and building analog and digital circuits.

A Pinto electrical system is a piece of cake for me. Get those three or four readings I mentioned and go from there. A circuit is a circle so we have to follow it around thats all no jumping ll over the place. Lets get this Pinto going already.

74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

rramjet

Sure sounds to me like ignition switch related although interestingly my 73 wouldn't start the other day after getting gas and I think the problem was at the start relay. Tapped it and wiggled the + lead on it and everything was fine. No problems since. Started many times with no problems in the 3 months I've owned it. I am a little suspicious of the + connection because I was taking it off to use a remote starter switch to bump the motor when checking timing belt alignment.

I was also going to suggest troubleshooting using a test light can sometimes be easier than a voltmeter.

Make sure you get one for 12 Volt circuits.

The bulb should be incandescent, (has a filament), which has the added advantage over a Voltmeter of verifying circuit contacts are conducting current. It is possible to measure voltage in a circuit but have no or too little current particularly where switch or relay contacts are involved although this is more common in low power circuits.

redwinggirl

Good point about the battery. Since there's no corrosion anywhere. Ill have autozone chk it out.

74 PintoWagon

Usually if you have to tap on something to work odds are it's a bad ground.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

ToniJ1960

 connect your voltmeter leads directly at the battery posts and have someone turn the key. If the voltage drops the battery is weak if not the battery is ok. Then put the black wire on a ground and the red on each terminal at the relay, read those voltages when the key is turned. Use a clean spot on the engine or the body for a ground not the battery. Tell us what you get and we go from there.

krazi

I had a similar problem today at work. try tapping on the solenoid with a lighter or something of similar size.
yeah, I'm Krazi!

74 PintoWagon

Check all connections and make sure there's no corrosion anywhere.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

I'm with tonij, battery not a known quantity there yet. I've fixed so many cars I can't count that owner swore up and down battery was good. Clicking at solenoid says the igntion start circuit is working. Just not enough battery to start car. Remote switch means nothing, bad battery will not crank five times then suddenly work once, battery still bad there.

The battery is bad to me until someone has passed a load test at proper CCA, a lesser CCA battery can be BRAND NEW and not crank the car. Simply checking static volts on a battery really is quite worthless.

redwinggirl

finally got a voltmeter! Battery is spanking clean, has new cables, too. According to the books, there is no NSS switch on the manual trans.  There are 3 wires that come off the solenoid. 2 are red, 1 is white/ blue stripe. The wht and 1 red go through firewall into connectors and then on to ig. switch. The other red goes to the ig. module. None of these seem compromised.

ToniJ1960

 But if the relay clicks when she turns the key it doesnt seem like a remote switch would make any difference. I still think its the battery or the connections are dirty. A post hole cleaner and a $4 voltmeter will most likely be all she needs.

nnn0wqk

I took that that she used a remote switch at the starter solenoid. If it started at that point pretty well rules out bad battery connections etc. I do not remember a Pinto using a clutch neutral switch so that would tend to point to the switch at the base of the steering coluum. I agree that a voltmeter would be a great investment at this point, should save a lot of parts replacements.

ToniJ1960

 Im not sure what you mean by a `remote start` did you use a jump starter or a remote switch?

Get a $4 voltmeter from harbor freight or wherever and we can walk you through tracing out the voltages to see exactly where it could be getting lost at.

krazi

hold the key in the start position with your left hand, then move the shifter with your right hand. it might start, it might not. had this problem with a dodge I had.
yeah, I'm Krazi!

redwinggirl

Finally had some time to test these things out. It WILL start and run using a "remote start". I replaced thr ignition module thinking it was a link in the chain. Nothing. Batteries good, replaced the elbow on the solenoid. Traced the wiring back and there are no bad wires. I just don't get it. Help.

amc49

Battery terminal condition or battery bad the most likely issue, how old is battery? Some of the answers given here amaze me. Yank battery and charge it up and load test at the parts store, that'll tell the tale.

Clicking at the solenoid says not enough power to pull solenoid all the way in, or why it clicks.

krazi

did you remember to put a nickel in it first?
p-put
i-in
n-nickel
t-to
o-operate
yeah, I'm Krazi!

jeremysdad

Quote from: HOSS429 on August 20, 2013, 03:23:12 PM
good question .. since you say it`s a stick you can have someone give you a shove with the switch on  and pop the clutch in 2nd gear and see will it run ..then alway spark on a hill ..... HA !!!

Like.

Yeah, that always works. Even with a dead battery! Too many autos have ruined my mechanical brain. lol

Many a morning I spent with a dead starter, a 64 Falcon, and 5 people pushing on a flat road. :D lol 'Hey, you want a ride to school? Cool. Told you this was a bad place to go---no hill.' Now, mush, puppies!!! lol

Def 2nd gear, though...1st will throw you through the windshield. Don't ask me how I learned that.

HOSS429

Quote from: jeremysdad on August 20, 2013, 03:11:30 PM
When was the last time this car started? It's a Ford, they're pretty straightforward (all I've owned since I got my first car in 93). lol
good question .. since you say it`s a stick you can have someone give you a shove with the switch on  and pop the clutch in 2nd gear and see will it run ..then always park on a hill ..... HA !!!