Mini Classifieds

Wanted 1973 Ford right fender
Date: 06/03/2017 08:50 pm
1971-74 Various Pinto Parts
Date: 01/18/2020 03:44 pm
1974 Pinto Drivers door glass and parts

Date: 02/28/2018 09:33 am
Need 76' coupe rear Glass and Front Grille
Date: 07/20/2017 01:23 am
parts needed
Date: 02/20/2017 07:58 am
1974 Pinto Drivers door glass and parts

Date: 02/18/2017 05:52 pm
NEED 77/78 MUSTANG II Left Motor Mount
Date: 04/15/2017 05:14 pm
need intake for oval port 2.3l
Date: 08/22/2018 09:23 am
looking for parts
Date: 06/19/2020 02:32 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
  • Total Members: 7,896
  • Latest: tdok
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,577
  • Total Topics: 16,269
  • Online today: 1,044
  • Online ever: 2,670 (May 09, 2025, 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 871
  • Total: 871
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

5.0 VS 2.3T

Started by pintoguy76, May 14, 2013, 08:03:47 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

half pint

Quote from: OhSix9 on May 15, 2013, 01:27:22 AM
300 hp takes 300 hp worth of gas turbo 4'd or v8'd.

Um, no.  That's basically saying a 73 400 with 185 hp would get better fuel mileage than a modern 5.4 with over 300 hp. Some engines make power more efficiently than others.  That turbo 4 would be more efficient than that 302, any day...but the 302 would sound better, have more low end and probably be more fun for gnarly displays of power...lol

Sent from a crack house in the ghetto.


OhSix9

The switch to maf is actually quite easy, you need to grab a maf sensor that is in common use and has a known transfer table you can copy and paste into the tune. wiring consists of using the wires that run to the vam and stealing 12v power from the bcs wiring (which is not needed when you toss it away for a manual boost controller). you need to gut the temp sensor out of the vam as it has a different  transfer curve than the usual iat sensors that ford uses on other units. ( some have had success rewriting the transfer function for this as well and using the common sensor instead of doing surgery on the old or spare vam.  the programming consists of using the right maf files from rothfam.  load the file and start by selecting maf from the dropdown. inputting the info for the maf transfer using software called binary editor and flash the tune to the j3 device. (it piggybacks on the ecu like old style "chips") from there you typically want to use a wideband 02 sensor with 3 channel datalogging to capture rpm tps and maf voltage.. then it takes some deductive reasoning to select useful data which will assist in tweeking the maf transfer as they change slightly depending on intake routing. here is some learning for ya. www.moates.net  you will need a j3 adapter and the jaybird. optionally you could use their quarterhorse it has datalogging features (and it won't datalog the p series I am using...pos) but does not support wideband 02 so  something like this is best   http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm2.php   then head off to  http://www.rothfam.com/svo/index.asp  and spend a day reading his maf tuning project.  on the injector front you can step up to 56#'ers if you can find a couple cfi ho 5.0's as they use a pair of low impedance 56'ers on the tbi, rob two to get 4.    Find yourself a t9 from a merkur, it is the exact same tranny as yours with od and literally falls in the hole with no modifications. unfortunately in the t5's they used the same ratios in na and turbo 4 cyl apps and first is way to short to make up for the na lack of power.  if you end up building a trans I would suggest doing so with the v8 ratios to make 1st more usable. I currently have the base tune written and am progressing to the active tuning stage but a pretty serious bike accident last fall seriously slowed this winters progress so more wrench must be turned before it gets back on the street, when completed I will post a maf file for use on p series ecu's for all to swipe.
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

pintoguy76

Sounds like I need to either sell my 5.0 with SD wiring and computer, or buy another pinto so I have a car for each one :D Having both would be more fun, but really I think the 2.3T makes better sense. My car is a 74 4-speed with a 3.00 8" rear and will probably keep the 4 speed for now, but it will get a T-5 eventually.  The T-5 has more performance oriented gearing plus the overdrive for mileage that the old 4 speed just doesn't have.

Id like to hear more about converting from VAM to MAF.... I am going MAF from SD on the F150 but its taking a whole new wiring harness from a 95 F150 to do it. Since thats not available on the 2.3T, id assume there is tuning and wiring work to do. No biggie. I mean I am afterall swapping EFI in two vehicles already...
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

Pinturbo75

im getting 27 mpg cruising 75 on the highway.....
75 turbo pinto trunk, megasquirt2, 133lb injectors, bv head, precision 6265 turbo, 3" exhaust,bobs log, 8.8, t5,, subframe connectors, 65 mm tb, frontmount ic, traction bars, 255 lph walbro,
73 turbo pinto panel wagon, ms1, 85 lb inj, fmic, holset hy35, 3" exhaust, msd, bov,

OhSix9

300 hp takes 300 hp worth of gas turbo 4'd or v8'd the v8 is low end and torquey while the turbo likes to spin. At that point gears and tranny will determine mpg.

Speed density is a perfectly acceptable engine management solution it just doesn't respond well to changes in volumetric efficiency within the pump ( cams, headers, intakes etc) without adjustments to the tables. headers to make it all fit probably won't screw up the tuning too badly unless you cam it up and make compression changes etc along the way in which case a custom tune would be needed.  Your turbo 4, on the plus side you have the good heads and it's probably not cracked. it also has the best ecu available for doing the swap.

transmission if it's a 5 spd you need an earlier bellhousing thats not hydraulic if you want to go auto get an a4ld built with 4l explorer parts and a witches brew of 4r44 parts that make it indestructible .

the vam on a turbo 4 is more like maf in it meters the air going into the system only in a rudementary manner with a barn door and rheostat vs the heated wire of a maf. Injectors for the t4 cars are low impedance 35#'ers  so you can run them at 100% duty cycle with no major fall off in efficency so they are more like 45lb high impedence injectors. 300 horses on stock injectors is doable.  The stock eec iv has more power and features available than any aftermarket injection system if you learn how to get into it a little. , the biggest restriction is the factory vam which has a rather low cfm rating and tends to max out to early when sucked on by big turbos leaving the thing running on the maps vs actually metering air. . either way v8 or t4 you can get a j3 adapter from moates and write your own tune to suit your needs. You can set it up with the vam go with a maf meter (mines set up with a 70mm maf from a lincoln) or switch the system to sd and use a 3 bar gm map sensor eliminating anything but an airfilter on the front of the turbo. (you can vent your bov straight to atmosphere using sd vs recircing it like maf and vam require. ) go up to 70lb injectors, adjust rev limits and timing etc etc etc. all in all if your car is already 2.3 powered its just a few wires, put a new fuse(headgasket) in the motor and away you go. if you want to make big power get a boport job on the head and add a roller cam. either way unless you are doing a stock swap tuning will be in order. it is up to you to diy or farm it out. if you are a diy'r you can get a better tune on the street with a data logger and wideband o2 sensor than most guys can do on a dyno.  the v8 takes a bigger shoehorn but you can get an aftermarket pan and pickup to make things easier. Aside from the time investment the parts to get into and modify factory tuning costs less than 75 bucks.
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

D.R.Ball

The turbo is the cheapest and the easiest swap to do, if you have a 2.3.

Pinto5.0

I tried to drive my '79 351W powered Pinto almost daily for a month. I finally got disgusted & sold it to buy a 2.3 powered wagon. The wagon will get a turbo in a couple years & still be driven daily.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

beaner

 it is to be a daily driven street car, I want to fix it up, make it a nice pleasant daily driver, with good gas mileage, AC, cruise, etc. So it needs to be a nice, clean install, very street friendly, pump gas, decently handling, etc.

that screems 2.3 turbo to me

brad :)

pintoguy76

I have a question up for debate. I have a Speed Density EFI 5.0 with wiring harness from my 87 F150 (I am putting a 351W in the F150, so the engine needs a new home) and also a 2.3 turbo from an 87 Turbocoupe. I pretty much have everything for the 2.3T swap (car is already a 2.3, have the engine, wiring harness computer, vam, etc), and i dont have anything but the engine for the V8 swap.


But the V8 would be fun too. Which one is really better? Logically the 2.3T makes better sense to me but I am wanting the V8 also. (Perhaps I need a 2nd pinto again lol).


The V8 will cost probably $1,000 more to swap in  (for the mounts, headers, and oil pan/pickup tube which are all hard to find and worth their weight in gold) and probably wont be as fast or street friendly (due to traction issues, etc), plus will use more gas and i wont be able to have all the ammenities id like to have, plus I dont have  as much stuff for it either.


However the 2.3T EFI has its own cons. I believe it is similar to a speed density setup and the stock fuel injection is only good for a certain amount of power before it stops working correctly. Then you get into using megasquirt or other aftermarket fuel injection and i am not sure i am up to that.


That really probably doesn't matter because I don't really plan to go all out in this car power wise, it is to be a daily driven street car, I want to fix it up, make it a nice pleasant daily driver, with good gas mileage, AC, cruise, etc. So it needs to be a nice, clean install, very street friendly, pump gas, decently handling, etc.  (Kinda like my restored Volvo 265 with a 4.3 Chevy and 700r4 trans in it). I do want to be able to kick some butt with it occasionally (also like the Volvo  ;D [size=78%]),[/size][size=78%] [/size]but I dont have to be able take it to the strip and run 9's in the quarter mile with it either.


So anyways I dunno what to do.


BTW both engines are apart and in pieces right now, the 2.3T probably needs more work now than the V8 tho they both need work but both did run when removed from the vehicles they came from.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E