Mini Classifieds

1976 Squire wagon

Date: 09/12/2018 10:30 pm
Built and Injected early 2000cc Engine

Date: 04/10/2017 07:30 pm
parts needed
Date: 02/20/2017 07:58 am
1973 Pinto Runabout

Date: 03/25/2019 09:02 pm
Front sway bar frame brackets
Date: 07/13/2017 01:05 am
Intake manifolds

Date: 03/06/2021 03:04 pm
2.8 radiator
Date: 10/25/2019 04:10 pm
73 Caliper Retaining Key
Date: 10/28/2021 07:49 am
1978 PINTO PONY FOR SALE 17,000 ORIGINAL MILES !!!!!!!
Date: 10/10/2019 09:42 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 905
  • Online ever: 1,722 (May 04, 2025, 02:19:48 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 308
  • Total: 308
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

72 pangra v8 swap questions

Started by Fehrion_sit, November 03, 2011, 10:03:41 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RSM

Good deal on the pedals. I saw the other post on the tank after I responded lol.

Fehrion_sit

RSM, i asked the question on a similar fuel tank thread, so now it got bumped to the top, if they dont respond, ill start a new thread. i got my pedals, found a guy on ebay with both brake and clutch (matching out of the same car) so im that much closer!! time to get a lock on a trans

RSM

I have no idea on the Ranger stuff. As far as gas tanks, I know that subject has been brought up before and I know don't remember if Mustang tanks are the same or not. You might want to start a new thread and ask if anyone knows.

Fehrion_sit

i havent had the drums off the 8" but when i get to the 5 lug axle ill be using the ranger drums, do you happen to know what year ranger drum is used for that? i wish the brake hardware from the small axle (stock one) was interchangable because it looks like it is all brand new.

have any experience with fuel tanks, we found a replacement one on amazon for a reasonable price, shape wise it matchs up exactly, but the listing does have a year listed.

http://www.amazon.com/Spectra-Premium-F80A-Mustang-Pinto/dp/B0049QQ49W/ref=au_pf_pfg_s?ie=UTF8&Model=Pinto%7C693&n=15684181&s=automotive&Make=Ford%7C54&Year=1972%7C1972&vehicleType=automotive&newCar=1&carId=001

thats the tank ^^^^

RSM

Other than replacing the axle bearings & seals and giving the axles a good once over, not much else to do other than figure what gear ratio you want if your thinking about changing it. If your sticking with what gears you have then probably the best thing to do is take the center section to a gear shop and have it inspected unless you have all the tools to check everything unless you know the axle is in good shape. Give it a good cleaning and check for any cracks then a fresh coat of paint if it everything checks out ok. How do the brakes look?

Fehrion_sit

RSM, any tips or tricks for refreshing the rear axle? mines at 8" ?

im leaning hard toward those heads so i can spend more in other places, ive done multiple equations (combustion ratio) to make sure i get my 10:1 which is my main concern, im looking hard into transmissions right now, trying to find the right t-5 and parts 

RSM

I've never heard of the heads before. I tried reading the article but the second page was missing altogether but it sounds like they got good results. Looks like the company has been around since 2007 so if they are still in business they must be doing something right. At that price I'd be tempted to buy a pair and try them on my 347.


Fehrion_sit

why hello guys, well im now the proud owner of several parts

-one 8" rear axle, drums and all + drive shaft from a 75 wagon
- mII oil pan, a little rough but hopefully repairable
-mII exhaust manifolds
- pinto v8 swap mounts came in the mail too!!!

all from one yard run! hahha

ill post pics soon, but if i wanted to unload the mustangII manifolds, whats my asking price, they are untouched, no rust no damage?

George Davis

it was a LONG time ago, but when i put the 289, 4speed (top loader) in the Gold Bee Pangra Race car i used a Herbert and Meek kit, it came with all the mounts including the trans mount and was a total bolt in, the headers were weird but fit. I did have to use a sledge to dimple the firewall at the bellhousing but nothing else. I used a clutch cable but forgot where i got it from and it was reverse mounted and never worked correctly as the fulcrum and ratio made the pedal so stiff a bodybuilder whould have trouble with it. the bellhousing was from a '65 Mustang and Shelby flywheel and clutch. the floor was notched to fit the hurst vertigal gate shifter. I finally ended up putting a built C-4 with 2800 stall converter in it and had lots of fun. Pic's of the car is in my galley pictures. I also had to notch the front radiator support to get a Mustang II V-8 Radiator in it, also switched to electric fans due to clearance problems. That's as about as much as i remember on it now, this was in 74 so the memory fades, i'm sure others on here have more recent experience than I do. Good luck. Oh, sub frame connectors, slapper bars and a 6 point cage helped stiffen my Pangra.

dave1987

If you have a drive shaft that fits with your current axle it should be fine to use with the 8". The only real difference is the yoke which changes from manual to automatic transmissions. As a side note, the C4 and C3 automatic transmissions use different yokes as well.

I have a stock 2.3 in my 78 with the stock 4spd Ford FOG transmission behind it. I did the 8" axle swap and am still using the same drive-shaft.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

Wittsend

My understanding is that all Pinto's have the same wheel base.  Therefore the difference maker becomes the transmission and rearend. Also, in your case the location of the transmission might be different (meaning moved) for the V-8 installation.

But as a reference point I went from a:

2.0 / C-4 / 6.75 rearend

to a

2.3 / T-5 / 8" rearend

And the original '73 wagon driveshaft fit perfectly.  :-)

Tom

RSM

I believe the wagon drivelines are longer but I couldn't tell you by how much. If you get it cheap enough i'd take it anyways.

Fehrion_sit

yahoo! and because its coming out of a pinto , it will be the right length to fit under our rear end! ... should i take the driveshaft too? the car is a wagon.

RSM


Cookieboystoys

It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

Fehrion_sit


oldkayaker

The late spindle is about 7/8" taller (between the ball joints) than the early spindle.  I suspect this would affect the geometry but I do not understand such topics.  However I seem to remember somebody here installing the late spindle in a 73.  Another problem is that the hole for the tie rod end is larger in the late spindle than the 71-72 spindle.  The 73 has a unique rack which uses the larger tie rod end.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Fehrion_sit

i have seen that link, is switching to the newer spindle even possible?

oldkayaker

In case you have not seen the great thread below, it shows what is involved in adapting the Granada disc to the early Pinto.  I am not aware of anybody making after market brakes for the early spindles anymore.  Would like to hear if someone is.
http://www.fordpinto.com/pinto-faq/front-disc-brakes-(4-5-lug)/msg6498/#msg6498
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

Fehrion_sit

on a side note, for my early pinto, is a granada brake swap overly difficult, would i be better off with aftermarket brakes?

Reeves1

Look in the parts for sale section. Guy has a brand new set of headers you are looking for & the price is good as well.
Seems to me, he may have mounts as well ?

Edit: his listing has expired.
shoot a PM to 79prostreet: http://www.fordpinto.com/profile/?u=8303

Fehrion_sit

Reeves, i was planning on getting a set of used super comps, but i need to mount the motor first which wont happen till i have all the parts to do so(probally in the spring) ... recommendations ?

Reeves1

I didn't re-read the topic, but have you decided on what headers you will be going with ? May make a difference on which way you mount the engine....
I do have frame mounts, but I'm holding them till I know what will happen to the 302w & T-5, as I would like to sell as a complete unit/swap .

Fehrion_sit

i was under that impression, but i was unsure, i know the pedals i need also have to be non power brakes because they are not interchangable ...? i read that on another post

Reeves, are those mounts you have for a v8 swap? id buy just them .. Fehrionsit@gmail.com

RSM, i emailed the guy in California about the swap mounts .. he responded but has not emailed me back yet with a defiant answer.

Ricpinto, i believe it is a six bolt bellhousing, i will double check when i hone the block tomorrow.

289Wagon

 Not all 289 blocks are the same as a 302. The early blocks used a smaller bell housing and only a 5 bolt mounting ( like a 260) the later ones used the same 6 bolt pattern as the 302.
You may want to count the threaded holes on the rear of your block. Two holes are for the dowel pins, so it should be either 7 or 8 holes total.
Still living the dream...In a points & condenser world.

TIGGER

Keep in mind you will need a clutch pedal assembly from a 71-74.  75 and up pedals are different in the way they mount.
79 4cyl Wagon
73 Turbo HB
78 Cruising Wagon (sold 8/6/11)

Fehrion_sit

ive been talking to Norm and he said those look alot like his, and i cant seem to find a picture of those mounts in there original condition. ive been reading alot and it seems like everyone has something different.   

RSM

I'm not sure if those Mustang II mounts will work. I saw a pair of Hooker swap mounts in the classified section...I think those are what you need. As far as the headers...I don't remember which ones worked on the early Pinto...need to do some homework before you buy anything.

Fehrion_sit

that sounds like one mean drivetrain reeves, but ive already got a built 289 thats almost done!! im building it myself in my engine machining class at school.

RSM, your right, automatics are easier and more consistent, but i love driving stick, there is nothing else like it, okay maybe winning too, but this is a street car for my dad and i to take out on the weekends and to local shows.

any thoughts on those mustang mounts i posted a picture of? im supposed to go pick them up tomorrow, i just dont want to buy the wrong thing again. http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/pts/2679652559.html
there is the link of stuff the guy has.

New Hooker Super Comp Headers 1 5/8" x 31"x 3" Part # 6102
^^^ those arent the super comps that work with pinto swap is it?