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Various Pinto stuff for sale.
Date: 11/21/2018 01:56 pm
Selling off many SVO parts/motors etc.

Date: 07/13/2018 02:21 pm
1971-1975 Pinto
Date: 01/09/2017 04:14 pm
77 Wagon rear hatch
Date: 12/04/2019 05:57 am
Misc. Pinto parts

Date: 11/09/2019 04:25 pm
Wanted Postal Pinto
Date: 09/26/2019 05:31 pm
Need Mustang II Manual Transmission Mount
Date: 04/21/2017 02:03 pm
parts needed
Date: 02/20/2017 07:58 am
95 2.3l short block
Date: 03/18/2017 04:54 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

2.3 lousy gas mileage

Started by 2.3stangii, July 24, 2011, 11:03:49 AM

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2.3stangii

Wow. Been a while since my last login and I find this year old thread has been bumped lol. Thanks for bumping, cause I still have a miss and lousy idle problem.

Since this thread was first posted I had to let the car sit cause I didn't have time for it, but now that I've moved about 30 miles closer to work and my daily driver wagon has decided to tear itself apart at the floor. I've no choice but to rectify the problem  on the 71. I've learned that it is not the carb, plugs/wires or fuel pump, I've replaced all those. No cat either, just a strait pipe. Not yet determined gas mileage since I'm only a few miles from work but I'm pretty sure it still sucks.
New carb made it idle a little better, it still misses up to about 2000 rpm, but as long as I'm accelerating, it does fine. Plenty of power.
I'm thinking its possibly a weak coil or the timing is still off, hopefully not a head gasket.. Can't think of anything else.

78 Pinto wagon
74 Mustang II
78 Cobra II

JohnW

I just ordered the power valve from Napa and I'm pulling the cat out this weekend. After I do my water pump that seems to be going...

Then I'm going to pull the plugs to check how the fuel mixture is and see if that needs any adjustment.
-

kail

Quote from: 2.3stangii on July 24, 2011, 11:03:49 AM
Ok I've been scratching my head for a while now trying to figure out why my 71 (which has a low mileage 2.3 from a 78 in it) uses twice as much gas as my heavier, high mileage 78 wagon.. I don't know the exact MPG but at our prices of around 3.69 a gallon, it costs me $10 in my 78 to drive about 38 miles to work and back. While the 71, despite being much lighter costs $20 to drive the same distance!

Both are 4 speeds and have and same size carbs. The only differences are the rear ends, 3.55 in the 71 and 3.00 in the wagon but the wagon has 13'' wheels while the other has 15'' which should cancel out the low gears. And the 71 has brand new points dissy and the 78 has duraspark.

I'm thinking its somewhere in the carb cause the 71 won't idle very good, kind of lopes a little. One weird thing I noticed is that when I hit the brakes at say an unexpected light change, the engine dies but the car doesn't have power brakes so I don't see how braking could effect the engine.  ??? Any ideas?

I was having a hard time about this and also got this problem. thanks for asking it saves me a lot of time :)

Quote from: blupinto on July 24, 2011, 11:41:54 AM
This might be dumb, but possibly failing fuel pump?

its not dumb. this really fix my problem but i have to test it for a while. thanks for the simple solution

dick1172762

Power valve is got a hole in it. Easy to change and cheap too.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

OhSix9

a plugged cat will kill fuel mileage .  get rid of that or replace it with a high flow first and foremost. 2nd after you free up the exhaust make sure the thing isn't running rich as excess fuel is what destroys cats.  the more unburned fuel they have to deal with the hotter they run and the sooner they die. 3 tune for an octane level with you timing and don't "treat the old girl to a tank of the good stuff" without turning up the timing.  Higher octane resists detonation but also burns slower so if you don't light it sooner it pumps out unburned into the cats and back to the above...

OhSix'
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

JohnW

I figured I'd bump this back up instead of starting a new thread.

Last fall, I was getting 24-25mpg on a tank average and getting up to 29-30 on the highway. Now my gas mileage is down to a hair over 20mpg. I rebuilt my carb last fall but couldn't get a power valve at the time. I was still getting mid-high 20s after rebuilding it. Now it's dropped down, but nothing else seems to have changed. The performance and drivability haven't changed.

I just put a new fuel pump in last week with no noticeable effect on performance or mileage. I change fuel filters regularly, and it just got a fresh one. It also got a new PCV valve in the fall. I put in an entire brand new ignition system (distributor, plugs, wires, ignition module, internally regulated alternator) last summer and timed it, as well as rechecked timing recently. I'm also using ethanol treatment with every fill-up.

The charcoal canister was disconnected and the port on the carb plugged before I got the car, could that be causing problems by not allowing the carb to vent properly? I'm also pretty sure my cat is plugged and I'm going to rip it out soon. I've got some valve noise but it sounds exactly the same as when I was getting better mileage. Are there any other things I should look at?
-

ToniJ1960

 Just an idea,every time I had a power valve start leaking in my carberator it ran a little off on idle and of course used more gas.The first time I found it,was when I was trying to adjust the mixture. No matter how much I turned in the mixture screw,it wouldnt affect it.I asked someone and he told me it was too much gas geting through the top half.So I had it rebuilt. Now after all these years,I do it myself.In fact I just redid the top half about a month ago.It idles a lot better and gets abou twice the mileage nearly. With these gas prices it was time to do it :)

2.3stangii

Thanks I'll check that, could be the problem since literally everything else on this engine from the oil filter to the plug wires was original, I'm sure the fuel pump is 30 years old too.
78 Pinto wagon
74 Mustang II
78 Cobra II

FCANON

Smell your oil.. I've had 4 pumps fail on me Due to gas eating the Diaphragm... might be sqriting in your block or out the weep hole if this is your issue.

FrankBoss
www.pintoworks.com   www.tirestopinc.com
www.stophumpingmytown.com
www.FrankBoss.com

sedandelivery

You might want to check the carburetor float  if it is not the fuel pump.

blupinto

This might be dumb, but possibly failing fuel pump?

One can never have too many Pintos!

2.3stangii

Ok I've been scratching my head for a while now trying to figure out why my 71 (which has a low mileage 2.3 from a 78 in it) uses twice as much gas as my heavier, high mileage 78 wagon.. I don't know the exact MPG but at our prices of around 3.69 a gallon, it costs me $10 in my 78 to drive about 38 miles to work and back. While the 71, despite being much lighter costs $20 to drive the same distance!

Both are 4 speeds and have and same size carbs. The only differences are the rear ends, 3.55 in the 71 and 3.00 in the wagon but the wagon has 13'' wheels while the other has 15'' which should cancel out the low gears. And the 71 has brand new points dissy and the 78 has duraspark.

I'm thinking its somewhere in the carb cause the 71 won't idle very good, kind of lopes a little. One weird thing I noticed is that when I hit the brakes at say an unexpected light change, the engine dies but the car doesn't have power brakes so I don't see how braking could effect the engine.  ??? Any ideas?
78 Pinto wagon
74 Mustang II
78 Cobra II