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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Thinking of having my 78 Sedan Repainted....

Started by dave1987, August 01, 2010, 03:33:23 AM

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dave1987

So my dad pointed me to Macco. :(

Looks like I will be stripping the car of the bumpers, mirrors and door handles, sand it down and do some minor body work then send it out.

Some day I will have my own home to do this all at, it's just a matter of time....
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

Pinto5.0

I know others have had good luck with cheap guns but if you plan to do a few paint jobs spring for a Sharpe, Binks or DeVilbiss gun. A good one can be had for $125ish & last a lifetime if you only paint occasionally. I have yet to paint an entire car with my $300 gun(painted 2 of my buggies) but I have it when I need it. I do have 4 cars to paint if I ever find the time.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

carbomb

im 17 and i painted mine! looks great too! i'm willing to bet you can do it. at harbor freight they sell very cheap gravity feed paint guns that actually work pretty good if your on a tight budget. I used dimension on my car which is a sherwin williams product. I think it was $120 a gallon and hardener was 80 a gallon and mixes 2 to 1 so you only need 1/2 gallon to every gallon of paint. Its not the best product as far as coverage but sprays great and looks very good. I have been told utech is the way to go though. Still only around 200 a gallon but covers 2 to 3 times better. all of them have pretty good durability as long as the surface is prepped right. im sure they have videos on youtube for how to spray automotive paint. and keep it  clean!!!! wash the car and shop wet the floor and get good airflow. Cracked door and a fan in the window

dga57

Chris,
I've always done all-over primer and have never used sealer.  It makes sense to me that it would probably yield the same result.  The main thing is to not have any bleed-through, whatever method you use.  Hope it turns out great!
Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

Pinto5.0

You will thank me for the hair net suggestion when you shower after the painting is done. Keeping hair out of the paint is important but getting enamel paint out of your hair is next to impossible.

Painters suits are less than 5 bucks. Harbor Freight has them & disposable filters cheap.

Wet the floor before each time you blow the dust down & always wash & squeegee the mess off the floor. Anything you DON'T want body color needs a NEW drop cloth taped or stapled secrely over it. If the ceiling is finished drywall plastic is a waste of time. If you have open rafters it's required. Clean the overhead shop lights well also. extra shop lights on the walls & at the front & back are a godsend. I also have 10  clamp on lights to light the whole car.

A good respirator can be had for 25 to 30 bucks. Mine was 25 & has changeable cannisters.

Plastic on the floor DOES NOT WORK!! DO NOT TRY IT!! It will stick to your feet, fling water on the car & generally ruin your paint job. Keep the floor wet to keep most paint from sticking. Just clean the floor well the next day if there is overspray on it.

Sealer & paint MUST be sprayed the same day, usually within an hour of each other.

Use expensive painters masking tape & masking paper. Trying to save $25 here will give you grief, trust me.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

dave1987

I am not throwing the Macco idea out the window, but I really want to do the paint myself. I take a lot of pride in knowing that everything done to my cars is done by ME. All but an alignment and resurfacing brake components and flywheels. Other than that I do everything myself.

I will need to see how long my dad will let me borrow the garage, as they have a big meat freezer out there as well as their second refrigerator that they don't use to much.



I was thinking of blowing dust off EVERYTHING in the garage one day (with fans running under the garage door like you stated), then let it all settle and do it again a day or two later and let that settle. After that, I know my dad would make it mandatory to put up plastic sheeting over EVERYTHING in the garage, but I would do the ceiling as well, just going around the lights though. I was thinking I should cover the floor with plastic as well, to ensure I don't ruin my dad's garage floor if i spill or over spray.

A few questions:

How much does a disposable paint suit cost? I was thinking of picking up two or three since I probably won't get it all done in ONE day.

Also, how much does a good mask go for? I was thinking of getting something decent since I plan to paint my station wagon as well, down the road, and my wife and I plan to buy another Tercel Station Wagon like her first car and repaint that too.

Food prep quality hair nets arn't a problem, I work at Jack In The Box and we always have those available, it's company policy.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

JoeBob

Just read this for the first time today. Had Macco do my 77 bob three years ago. There are 5 Macco shops in Denver area. They all have different prices. Get bids from all in your area then play them off one another to get the best deal. I got the macco with the best reputation to match the lowest price and then throw in a few extras.
Bill
77 yellow Bobcat hatchback
Deuteronomy 7:9

Pinto5.0

A couple days prior to painting blow all the dust off the walls & ceiling then wash & squeegee the floor. About 2 hours before painting open up windows & tape furnace filters in them. Wet the floor down & put a couple box fans under the garage door & pull the door down on them. Let them pull any remaining dust out of the air.

Wet the floor again prior to paint. Dress in a disposable painter suit, wear a food prep quality hair net & blow yourself off outside to remove dust. Wipe your airhose clean as well.

Air compressors throw oil mist in the air as they run. I have mine in another room. Don't spray any WD40, tire dressings, armor all or silicone sprays in that garage for a couple weeks prior to paint,

I not a pro by any means but I use $50 spray guns for primer & sealer & my $279 (12 years ago) Sharpe HVLP for paint. Use a brand new disposable auto painters water filter at the gun for primer, sealer & paint. Stack 2 of them if it's humid the day you spray.

Use the correct reducers for temp & humidity levels & for gods sake follow the paint manufacturers directions to the letter. This goes for flash times as well as sealer to top coat intervals. If you eff up the sealer don't paint. Let it dry, fix the mistakes(runs, etc) wetsand then seal again & paint another day. 

I hope some of this helps.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

Bigtimmay

Quote from: popbumper on September 19, 2011, 03:34:00 PM
I do not have the luxury of a dust free environment, I'm gonna have to figure out the best way to handle that.

Best way to keep dust down I have found in a dusty enviroment is to wet the floor down it actually helps alot.
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

popbumper

In fact I AM going with original color an paint type - acrylic enamel, with the color being 1976 Medium Chestnut brown metallic. This of course makes all the painting "easier" since color is original, and, since the car is completely apart, no worries there....I can get at everything.
To date, all I have been able to paint were the engine compartment, radiator frame and cowl, but they turned out BEAUTIFUL, albeit with some dust in them. I do not have the luxury of a dust free environment, I'm gonna have to figure out the best way to handle that. The paint I used was Deltron, with reducer and hardener, the gloss on the paint is unbelievable - like I painted with plastic!
Along those lines, can anyone tell me - DUST - IF I get dust in the finish, can enamel be compounded like lacquer? Can it be carefully sanded after drying and then "rubbed out" with the proper materials to gain the brightness back?
I recall my '79 wagon with original enamel finish - I was able to compound it without any issues.
Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

dave1987

Chris, I was thinking the same as you, since I'm probably going to keep the blue it is now. Deffinitely need a sealer if doing any body work now-a-days. If you were going with an old school enamel it would be different though.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

DBSS1234

It has been my experiance that with the new urethane paints the very aggressive solvents need a sealer to avoid visable lines where any body work was done. These new paints really bite into the sub layers.

popbumper

Quote from: dga57 on August 05, 2010, 04:02:31 AM
Personally, I would avoid metallic paint for a first effort.  Pastels or white are the most "forgiving" for the novice painter.  Also, for whatever it's worth, I am a big believer in priming the entire car.  It doesn't cost that much more and it assures more even color.

Dwayne :smile:
Quote from: turbo74pinto on August 05, 2010, 02:47:00 PM
youll never know until you try!!

beegle, i agree that harbor frieght stuff isnt much to write home about.  i would not used much there commercially, just out of my preferance.  but i feel for a beginner or someone that will use the tools every now and then its fine.  id just hate to see him waist the money if he doesnt enjoy it in the long run.

bob

Dwayne: I am in the beginning of paint prep, and my original finish is oxidized but mostly solid. Guy at the paint shop told me that it is not necessary to prime the whole car, for my case, since I am going with stock color over original paint, all I need to do is scuff/repair the dings, do what body work is required, and then spray the car with SEALER to ensure there is no bleed-through of pigment.

I tend to beleive the guy - any thoughts on sealer?

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

dave1987

Ahh, been awhile since I checked and posted in this thread...

Well I am contemplating painting the car again. The clear coat delamination is just getting worse. Now the trunk is starting to peel! The quarter panels by the rear glass is peeling as is the tops of the fenders. It's beginning to look like a beater even though it's very well taken care of. I'm still cut between the Red like Jeff's car was, or the blue it is now. Been thinking.....


If I stay with the blue the car is now, but leave out the pearl....If I sand off the clear coat down to the paint....I shouldn't need AS MUCH paint right? I need to repair some deep scratches that go through to the original yellow paint, repair the quarter panels and the cowl, and strip the stone deflectors and headlight buckets so they can be painted over again with flex additive paint.

I have some cash coming my way from my vacation payout at work, so I'm thinking of getting the paint now and painting it next summer. It's still around 90 degree weather, but have other things that still need done before winter sets in.



Also, the car was originally painted with a harbor freight gravity feed gun. We actually still have the gun it was sprayed with, still works well to, I painted the front valance with it a year or two ago. My dad has a water seperater for the air compressor, and I could up the minimum pressure on the tank so I don't loose to much air pressure during painting.



1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

turbo74pinto

Quote from: blupinto on August 05, 2010, 12:02:41 AM
Turbo74, your input makes me want to try painting my car!!! Something, like rebuilding my engine and transmission, I'm deathly afraid to attempt, as I'm liable to screw it up. Thank you for the info! ;D

youll never know until you try!!

beegle, i agree that harbor frieght stuff isnt much to write home about.  i would not used much there commercially, just out of my preferance.  but i feel for a beginner or someone that will use the tools every now and then its fine.  id just hate to see him waist the money if he doesnt enjoy it in the long run.

bob
Take a job big or small, do it right or not at all.

dga57

Quote from: dave1987 on August 05, 2010, 03:33:37 AM
Becky, the 78 has black interior.

OhSix', thanks for that info. I've heard that silver can be a pain in the neck to do right. Would silver be a bad choice? I was thinking of doing a Stallion color scheme as well.

Personally, I would avoid metallic paint for a first effort.  Pastels or white are the most "forgiving" for the novice painter.  Also, for whatever it's worth, I am a big believer in priming the entire car.  It doesn't cost that much more and it assures more even color.

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

dave1987

Becky, the 78 has black interior.

OhSix', thanks for that info. I've heard that silver can be a pain in the neck to do right. Would silver be a bad choice? I was thinking of doing a Stallion color scheme as well.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

OhSix9

Red is not a good choice.   as someone mentioned previously the pigments make it expensive.   They also tend to make it very translucent which translates to a lot of paint  plus a color change will eat up way more than a mixed gallon.  If you do go red, depending on the shade it may be more cost and coverage effective to give the car a coat of white silver or black first.  especially if any panels have repair work and dont match the current color of the car (assuming you where going to block off the clear and leave the current base color and not re prime the whole vehicle.)as reds will tend to reveal variations in the underlying color.  Solid light colors are the best at hiding imperfections when it comes to beginner painting. 

beegle While surface prep will determine how good the final product looks and lasts and the topcoat will always reveal poor prep it does not result in runs or orange peel.  you are either over reduced.  spraying to close or just to heavy on runs.  orange peel is reducer selection in most cases as the paint needs time to rest and self level before it flashes off. thats the trick. to mix up and spray a coat of paint that stays wet long enough to flow out level yet not sag or run it. that fine line between the porridge being to hot to cold or just right.

OhSix'
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

blupinto

Dave, what color is the interior? If it's blue, will that bother you?
One can never have too many Pintos!

dave1987

Alrighty! Great info there bob! I have a wagon tailgate in storage I can practice on. It's got flat surfaces, curves, pinches around the corners and sharp edges. Should be able to play around well with it!

I found the paint I want. I can go with the Nason color, Red. For 3/4 gallon it's $115.90, with reducer and the hardener it's $152.60. After clear coat is added to the bill with it's  hardener, it's up to $275.44 for the entire paint job, but that doesn't include the tack rags and sand paper to remove the old clear coat. Not as worried about that though right now.

If I want to go with the original Sherwin Williams Ultra 7000 that my brother used, along with all the other additives and stuff, including clear coat, it's up to $650.68. $182.90 for the 3/4 gallon of paint and $238.75  :hypno: for the clear coat.

The red is sounding really nice since it's affordable, and I've always wanted a hot and flashy fun to drive red car! :D

I'm getting really excited about painting the car now! :D
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

blupinto

Turbo74, your input makes me want to try painting my car!!! Something, like rebuilding my engine and transmission, I'm deathly afraid to attempt, as I'm liable to screw it up. Thank you for the info! ;D
One can never have too many Pintos!

beegle55

Very good write up turbo. I used a enamel single stage if I recall correctly. I guess I'm not giving it enough credit as I really don't have enough experience to make a fair judgment. Both vehicles I used it on I didn't buff because 1.) Had so many runs and so much dust in it that we just re-prepped the car because my buddy didn't good a fair job on the prep and it lead to sooo many runs...2.) the other was a Dodge 1500 that as long as it had paint, we didn't care how it came out. So with that said I did no finishing with the single stage and guess I passed judgment too quickly...but it seems like even if you just quickly sand, prime, paint, and clear something it comes out looking decent compared to the mishaps I had with the single stage. But I didn't attempt to correct the mistakes made so perhaps it was just my bad...they wouldn't sell it if some didn't like it.

Also my bad on passing judgment on the Harbor Freight equipment. I have a media blaster from there that I love and it was relatively inexpensive and works well so I could see how one of their guns would also work well. And as far as gravity vs. siphon turbo is exactly right. It is your choice via personal perferance and my grandpa (who taught me a lot and worked at a body shop for many years) swears by his Binks siphon gun and had a lot of success with it before one of our painters didn't clean the gun right and screwed it up...but he wants to buy a rebuild kit for it. And I've also heard great things about DeVilbiss equipment.

Also good call on the flex additive/clear coat topics as I overlooked that and its very important.

A suggestion I would make is read read read. Go to your local bookstore and search for an automotive section. There are some great DIY books that are very informative and can learn you a lot combined with some practice. Way better than dropping major money in a body shop...at least to me because I never really want to own a car I'm afraid of driving. So a 20 footer or at least a 8/10 job does good for meee.  :) I'm more about speed anyways...turbo 302 or nitrous injection shortly? I think so..  :2fast4u:

      -beegle55
2005 Jeep GC 5.7 HEMI
1993 Ford Mustang
1991 Ford Mustang GT
1988 Ford Mustang
1980 Ford Pinto Cruising- Mint, Fully documented
1979 Ford Pinto Trunk- 2.3L 4 speed
1978 Ford Pinto HB- 302 drag car
1976 Ford Pinto Runabout- 40,000 mi, V6
1972 Ford Maverick Grabber (real)
1970 Ford Mustang 302

turbo74pinto

i use hvlp gravity fed now.  its a matco $175 unit with a 1.4 tip.  it works fine, although id like to get a 1.2 tip.  i grew up using siphon guns and i actually prefer them.  in fact my primer and back up guns are old binks and devilbis siphons.  its all in whats comfortable to you.  i had to repaint many a mirror when i switched to a gravity feed.  i actually have a $19.95 gravity fed hvlp from harbor freight that i use.  its great for sealers.  i dont think id be afraid to use it for paint. 

im assuming you have next to no experience with painting aside from a rattle can.  first thing id do is go to harbor freight and hold gravity and siphon guns.  gravity fed and conventional guns do the exact same thing, atomize paint.  gravity will do it with less air pressure which means less overspray.  remember that with paint in them, the cans are heavier.  i would then buy said comfortable $20 gun and head to the nearest parts store with cheap paint.  buy whatever is cheap with reducer/thinner.  go home and practice.  hopefully you have extra crap or scrap cars...makes it easier.  or you can practice on your neighbors car without permission if you want to be fed for free by the county jail.  your gun should have 2 nobs, fan and feed.  learn fan patterns, paint feed, distances...etc.  when you get comfortable with the adjustments, practice spraying longer strokes.  use whats comfortable for your reach.  practice keeping the gun at the same distance throughout the whole stroke.  practice keeping the nosil of the gun perpendicular with the surface your painting.  your gun will have 2 "notches" when you pull the trigger.  first notch is just air and the second ads the paint.  practice using this option.  practice continuing the air after you release the paint notch and the same with starting while your hands still moving.  dont get in the habit of stopping your stroke while spraying paint.  this leads to metallic build ups, sags, runs...etc.  practice keeping your hand moving.  be patient between coats, rushing equals a lot of sanding in the end. 

once you learn the gun, get a pint or so of whatever paint youd like to paint your car. learn how it flows, how fast it flashes and how fast it drys.  remember that the hotter it is, the faster it flashes and drys.  if your not happy/confident with the finish with the cheapo gun, try a better gun.  borrow, ask to watch in a body shop, whatever you can do.  just remember, a $3000 set of golf clubs doesnt turn a golfer with 6 months experiance a pro.

as said earlier, water separator is a must.  water and auto paint dont mix...unless they are of water base. and if your clear is peeling and you want to keep the car, sand ALL the clear off.  you may regret not doing that in the future.  also as said earlier, the paint is only going to be as good as whats below it.  for the cracking around the headlights, im assuming you mean the rubber extentions.  paint those and any other rubbery parts seperate with a flex additive. 

rememeber, this is body work, not rocket science.  practice enough and youll get used to it.  you will always learn and dont expect to be a pro in a week.  dont waist your money on $1000 worth of stuff youll never use if you dont like it or cant keep the motivation to do.  start small...end big.  prolong the painting of  your car a year if you have to.  if you want your car to be a show car, your not going to do it yourself with the first car you spray.  if you want a 10 or 20 footer, youll be happy.  youll see the flaws, but only close.  not to mention, none body shop/painter guys will notice most of the flaws.  painting is only 1/3 of a good finish too.  dont forget wetsanding, rubbing and polishing.  prep work has been discussed already.  body work is the most time consuming.  getting them panels straight and scratch free is time consuming.

beegle, what single stages were you using?  lacquer, enamel, urethane?  i felt single stages were pretty easy to work with.  enamel isnt really that glossy but will buff pretty decent.  although if you want that "period correct"  look, youll look deeper into acrylic lacquer for older cars.  the tail gate on my work truck infact is a single stage urethane that i used lacquer thinner as the activator.  5 years later it still looks great...well...other than the dents, scratches and the fact that its been washed maybe 4 times since i put it on.  lol, that truck is a mix of base/clear coat, urethane single stage and acrylic enamel.  whatever is free or left over, gotta love black.

bob

Take a job big or small, do it right or not at all.

dave1987

My brother painted the car in highschool as his auto body final project/presentation. He spent $300 on the gallon of paint (The canyon blue Shermin Williams Ultra 7000 that now costs $600/gal), and used one of those $50 gravity air guns from Harbor Freight. It came out wonderful, he just didn't prep the right and the paint cracked around the headlight bezels. He also didn't remove anything and did a bad job masking, so over spray on a few areas and not quite covering everything around the bumpers.

The Paint on the car still looks great, just the roof is horrible with the clear coat separating and peeling away. The patches get larger every time it rains or there is cool enough weather to create condensation on the clear coat surface.


I agree that if you want good results you have to pay the right amount to get it. You get what you pay for, unfortunately I'm a cheapskate and will go the cheapest but most durable route. I really am eager to do this myself, I would LOVE to learn a new trade (painting and autobody).


Thanks for the input everyone, and keep it coming. lots of good info, tips, and pointers being shared here!
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

beegle55

Agree with big Tim... We've always seen very good results with a gravity fed air supplied gun. It is imperative to have a high quality in line water separator and is also important to have the gun correctly adjusted to the right spray before painting or else you can really destroy hours and hours of prep within minutes of spraying. Good ventilation is also important to clear out the over spray. And please consider many spray guns before you settle with one...as you get what you pay for. I saw an ad in a Harbor Freight magazine showing a $50 paint gun. I definitely wanna buy $300 worth of paint to shoot on my laborious prep work through a $50 gun....not. Harbor Freight is good for some stuff as not everything needs to be high quality or expensive to do what it is supposed to do.

Agree with Dwayne. That description is based on what thinner and hardener you use that mixes with the paint. That stuff may be good but I've had good luck with the regular DuPont/PPG stuff my auto parts store mixes and sells when you follow the directions for the mixing of reducer and hardener. And I would NEVER recommend a single-stage system unless you are a seasoned veteran or a straight up professional because it is very hard to work with...especially if you aren't spraying in a booth...and the sh!t I shot just didn't look like it had any gloss in it at all...much easier/better results with a base/clear setup...

      -beegle55
2005 Jeep GC 5.7 HEMI
1993 Ford Mustang
1991 Ford Mustang GT
1988 Ford Mustang
1980 Ford Pinto Cruising- Mint, Fully documented
1979 Ford Pinto Trunk- 2.3L 4 speed
1978 Ford Pinto HB- 302 drag car
1976 Ford Pinto Runabout- 40,000 mi, V6
1972 Ford Maverick Grabber (real)
1970 Ford Mustang 302

dga57

Quote from: dave1987 on August 03, 2010, 12:58:57 AM
Here is a link to the Sherwin Williams Ultra 7000 products:

http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/products/list_products.cfm?subdepartment=2515

From their website:

ULTRA 7000® Basecoat is an easy-to-apply, fast-drying basecoat that uses unique state of the art resin technology. ULTRA 7000® Basecoat offers exceptional clear coat gloss hold out and distinction of image, while providing excellent clearcoat to basecoat adhesion. Ultra 7000® Basecoat provides excellent color match to OEM Basecoat/Clearcoat colors, as well as OEM Underhood Colors.  The ULTRA 7000® mixing bank can also be used as a high quality single stage system.


That is their own opinion though. Although it sounds great, it's ultimately up to the car owner or painter as to how good it truly is. I believe the facts that it is fast-drying and that its bond is "excellent" to clear coat are what my brother was sold on when he purchased the paint. He didn't have long to paint the car since he did it in auto body class and wanted it to last awhile.

Dave,

Other than perhaps the "resin technology" part (not sure about that), that pretty much describes every automotive finish I've ever used.  If you get the right paint/reducer ratio, it will dry very quickly, and that's what you want it to do.  I'd suggest you go to an automotive paint supply store and talk to the staff there... they are generally VERY helpful and they DO know their products.  Talk to a few of the better body shops in your area too and see what they are using. 

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

dave1987

Here is a link to the Sherwin Williams Ultra 7000 products:

http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/products/list_products.cfm?subdepartment=2515

From their website:

ULTRA 7000® Basecoat is an easy-to-apply, fast-drying basecoat that uses unique state of the art resin technology. ULTRA 7000® Basecoat offers exceptional clear coat gloss hold out and distinction of image, while providing excellent clearcoat to basecoat adhesion. Ultra 7000® Basecoat provides excellent color match to OEM Basecoat/Clearcoat colors, as well as OEM Underhood Colors.  The ULTRA 7000® mixing bank can also be used as a high quality single stage system.


That is their own opinion though. Although it sounds great, it's ultimately up to the car owner or painter as to how good it truly is. I believe the facts that it is fast-drying and that its bond is "excellent" to clear coat are what my brother was sold on when he purchased the paint. He didn't have long to paint the car since he did it in auto body class and wanted it to last awhile.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

turbo74pinto

Quote from: popbumper on August 02, 2010, 11:18:50 AM
PS - red paint is expensive ONLY because of its popularity. Supply and demand.

im pretty sure its the pigment that makes it expensive.  black or white are more popular yet they are the cheapest.  dupont has been doing studies every year for a while now.

http://www2.dupont.com/Automotive/en_US/news_events/article20091201.html

bob
Take a job big or small, do it right or not at all.

Bigtimmay

Air! An i wouldnt use anything but gravity feed guns.  I dont think i have ever even seen Sherwin Williams Ultra 7000 but then again about the only paints i have ever dealt with are Nason,Dupont and House of Kolor.
I think if i paint my bobcat im gunna use a House of Kolor Orion Silver and Use Ice Green pearl over that.
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

r4pinto

Good info Beegle! What's the best type of gun to use when painting a car? Air or electric?
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress