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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Whats it take to put a 460 in a Pinto...???

Started by Pale Roader, July 15, 2009, 05:33:58 AM

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Srt

the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

Pale Roader


Damn, SRT... thats one helluva helpful link. With enough measurin' in the Pinto (or my Dodge), that would pretty much tell me everything i need to know. Too bad it isn't an NA 4.6, but i'll just subtract a couple inches for the blower. Good stuff!

Srt



But yes... it is WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE... Wider than a 460. But it is also short (length) and not very tall. A small hoodscoop would necessitate a FG hood, which is another nice weight savings.

http://www.southernperformancesystems.com/a-dim-cobrasc.html
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

PintoMaverick

Well mine might have to wait or never be. I really need a truck so Im thinking of trading my Pinto for an older Ford truck. We'll see I guess.
1974 Pinto trunk model, 2000, 4 speed. 1971 Maverick Grabber, 4.6 DOHC 98 Cobra engine, 5speed, Mustang II front suspension, 4 link rear.

turbo74pinto

Quote from: PintoMaverick on September 10, 2009, 10:51:33 AM
You can also have the PATS, EGR, O2 sensors all removed from the PCM which is what IM going to do.

you cant get rid of the front 2 o2s.  they are a big factor in making efi work correctly.  although the rear 2 can be deleted.

bob
Take a job big or small, do it right or not at all.

Pale Roader

Quote from: PintoMaverick on September 10, 2009, 10:51:33 AM
Granted these engine's are not that heavy. It's mainly the shear size of the things. They are tall trust me on that! Which does put the center of gravity a little higher than a normal engine setup. A batwing style pan might be the best bet those are from a Mark VIII I believe, and they kick out on the sides. You can flip the manifolds around so the exit to the front, but keep in mind you wont be able to use a P/S or A/C compressor if you were thinking about that, I think it will hit. A set of custom headers would probably be needed. I would set the engine that far back. Even those this is a short wheel based vehicle their is more weight hanging over and past the front wheels than the rear.

My car doesn't have a single power or luxury option, and its staying that way. Among other pluses, it makes swaps much easier. Custom headers are a must for me, even if the manifolds fit right in. Its gotta SOUND amazing...

I would love to have a 4.6 in there set back that far... but now we're talking a whole new firewall, tunnel or transmission mods, brake mods, possible steering mods, and a thousand other things i wouldn't otherwise have to mess with. We're almost looking at a full custom race car at that point. Bloody fast? yes. But i dont have the patience, tools or space to attack that.

QuoteThe electronics are not that hard. You will need the PCM, PCM harness, and engine harness. Good thing about this stuff is that you really cant screw-up plugging stuff in because all the connectors are specific to where they are going. I wouldn't use a Mark VIII PCM, there are several guys having alot of trouble getting there engines to run and various other problems. You can use a SOHC 4.6 Mustang GT PCM. They just have to be tuned. The computer doesnt know wether the engine has 2 or 4 valves.

Actually, if you use the 96-up GT harness/computer apparently they dont even have to be tuned. The computer figures it out after a short time. There are several guys who've swapped 5.4DOHC's into GT's and didn't have to touch a thing, electronically.

QuoteYou can also have the PATS, EGR, O2 sensors all removed from the PCM which is what IM going to do. In my Maverick IM running the full harness front to rear from a Cobra. But Im using the gauge cluster, A/C, sound system, fuel system etc. If I do this to the Pinto I won't run the A/C comp, or P/S, and I would only use the bare necessities to run the engine. If you need any help let me know, I'm eyeball deep in this stuff right now.

Hah! i might just take you up on that. I've been itching to jam a DOHC mod into this old Dodge hotrod i have. Space... is NOT an issue. The electronics ARE.

QuoteIf your really thinking about this the BIGGEST suggestion I can make here is to tell you to find a COMPLETE donor car! Perferably a wrecked Cobra. I can't stress that enough. I didn't do that the first time and ended up needing alot of hard to find little things, that will hold you up and piss you off. These things will nickle and dime you to death as well.

Thats always the best way to go. Too bad Cobras are worth too much here. If i lived in the States i could pick up a donor for half the cost. I might look into a GT instead, has all the wiring and some other parts depending on how its optioned, but the Cobra would give me bigger brakes to play with, and possibly better trans and diff. Its all in the planning stages right now (talking about the hotrod, the 4.6 Pinto is but a dream), dumping a 440 in there would still be SOOOOOO much easier. Too bad i'd have to listen to it, get 7mpg and put oil in it every third day...

hellfirejim

Please keep us uptodate on this.  I find it very interesting especially when you combine it with Grumpy's 8.8 independent rear.
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385


PintoMaverick

Quote from: Pale Roader on September 10, 2009, 07:36:12 AM
Yeah, i've done the measurements too... if i can still even think about it after that, then i must be crazy. And yup... still thinking about it!

One thing i didn't know the specs on was the oil pan. If thats the case i'd try and find a different pan, from one ov the other many 4.6 variants. There is NO WAY i'd  set the engine back that far... the problems it would create would FAR outstrip the one it solves. There are many different pans to choose from. The engine set-back IS a killer performance mod, getting the weight closer to the middle ov the car is always a good thing, but keep in mind in this particular case it is not needed. The all aluminum 4.6 Cobra engine apparently weighs only a little more than the strangely (ridiculously) heavy little 2.3L. A 96-2001 Cobra engine is about 425lbs give or take.

But yes... it is WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE... Wider than a 460. But it is also short (length) and not very tall. A small hoodscoop would necessitate a FG hood, which is another nice weight savings.

The manifolds is another issue i dont see a big problem with. Half the draw with a DOHC mod is THE SOUND... so there no way i'd go through all that trouble and not use some nice custom headers with tuned length primaries, possibly a tri-Y set-up, and tuned merge-collectors. I build exhaust, so this is not an issue. The routing might be an issue, narrow frame and all... but i've since seen pictures ov a neat idea; pointing the manifolds/headers forward... and running the pipes under the K-member. If nothing else works (which i'm hoping is not the case) that is always an option. Someone here has done it with a 302. Still, i like the idea ov a very short exhaust, so i'd do my best to make the rearward headers work first.

I have a welder and a very good guy to do it for me. Really, the scariest part is trying to make the electronics work, that sounds like a nightmare. Distributors and carbs are NOT an option for this build... thats the type ov shite i'm trying to get away from. But the electronics is something i would definitely have to pay someone else to do. That and trying to stuff that big engine inside that tiny engine compartment.

There is a engineless 4spd pinto ov the same year as mine at the local yard, and finding a broken Lincoln Mark VIII with a DOHC 4.6 for a few bucks shouldn't be hard. So i might get the two entities together and see what fits and what doesn't one ov these days. My pinto already has the 8".

Granted these engine's are not that heavy. It's mainly the shear size of the things. They are tall trust me on that! Which does put the center of gravity a little higher than a normal engine setup. A batwing style pan might be the best bet those are from a Mark VIII I believe, and they kick out on the sides. You can flip the manifolds around so the exit to the front, but keep in mind you wont be able to use a P/S or A/C compressor if you were thinking about that, I think it will hit. A set of custom headers would probably be needed. I would set the engine that far back. Even those this is a short wheel based vehicle their is more weight hanging over and past the front wheels than the rear.

The electronics are not that hard. You will need the PCM, PCM harness, and engine harness. Good thing about this stuff is that you really cant screw-up plugging stuff in because all the connectors are specific to where they are going. I wouldn't use a Mark VIII PCM, there are several guys having alot of trouble getting there engines to run and various other problems. You can use a SOHC 4.6 Mustang GT PCM. They just have to be tuned. The computer doesnt know wether the engine has 2 or 4 valves. You can also have the PATS, EGR, O2 sensors all removed from the PCM which is what IM going to do. In my Maverick IM running the full harness front to rear from a Cobra. But Im using the gauge cluster, A/C, sound system, fuel system etc. If I do this to the Pinto I won't run the A/C comp, or P/S, and I would only use the bare necessities to run the engine. If you need any help let me know, I'm eyeball deep in this stuff right now.

If your really thinking about this the BIGGEST suggestion I can make here is to tell you to find a COMPLETE donor car! Perferably a wrecked Cobra. I can't stress that enough. I didn't do that the first time and ended up needing alot of hard to find little things, that will hold you up and piss you off. These things will nickle and dime you to death as well.
1974 Pinto trunk model, 2000, 4 speed. 1971 Maverick Grabber, 4.6 DOHC 98 Cobra engine, 5speed, Mustang II front suspension, 4 link rear.

Pale Roader

Quote from: PintoMaverick on September 05, 2009, 07:41:26 AM
I'll post a link over to the Maverick site soon as I get a few more pics uploaded. Just took the Cobra engine last night to finish fabbing up the engine and trans mounts.

Sorry to the original poster didnt mean to highjack your thread. ;D. I did do some measuring last night and just some info for anyone thinking about this. To put a DOHC 4.6 in a Pinto is going to be a major undertaking. The engine at the widest part is 29" wide! Also since the pans are rear sump you would have to set the engine about 4-6" back into the firewall, I would do this anyway because I wouldn't want that much weight sitting on and forward of the front tires. The exhuast manifolds will be another issue. Using Cobra manifolds would probably be out of the question because they turn out, Mercury Marauder manifolds would be the best bet since the go straight back and turn down and not out to the side. Also the frame rails are narrower in a Pinto about 25" apart where-as a Maverick is 26 1/2" That makes a big difference with the exhaust manifolds. Also some triming of the stock crossmember would probably be needed as well. A cowl or custom hood would be needed, the engine from the shortest part of the pan in the front to the top of the intake manifold is 26". Overall length without the coils poking out in the front is about 24". So your going to need a mig welder and some good fab skills to get this done. I may try this after I get the Maverick done. Can't start it right now until the Maverick is done.

Yeah, i've done the measurements too... if i can still even think about it after that, then i must be crazy. And yup... still thinking about it!

One thing i didn't know the specs on was the oil pan. If thats the case i'd try and find a different pan, from one ov the other many 4.6 variants. There is NO WAY i'd  set the engine back that far... the problems it would create would FAR outstrip the one it solves. There are many different pans to choose from. The engine set-back IS a killer performance mod, getting the weight closer to the middle ov the car is always a good thing, but keep in mind in this particular case it is not needed. The all aluminum 4.6 Cobra engine apparently weighs only a little more than the strangely (ridiculously) heavy little 2.3L. A 96-2001 Cobra engine is about 425lbs give or take.

But yes... it is WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE... Wider than a 460. But it is also short (length) and not very tall. A small hoodscoop would necessitate a FG hood, which is another nice weight savings.

The manifolds is another issue i dont see a big problem with. Half the draw with a DOHC mod is THE SOUND... so there no way i'd go through all that trouble and not use some nice custom headers with tuned length primaries, possibly a tri-Y set-up, and tuned merge-collectors. I build exhaust, so this is not an issue. The routing might be an issue, narrow frame and all... but i've since seen pictures ov a neat idea; pointing the manifolds/headers forward... and running the pipes under the K-member. If nothing else works (which i'm hoping is not the case) that is always an option. Someone here has done it with a 302. Still, i like the idea ov a very short exhaust, so i'd do my best to make the rearward headers work first.

I have a welder and a very good guy to do it for me. Really, the scariest part is trying to make the electronics work, that sounds like a nightmare. Distributors and carbs are NOT an option for this build... thats the type ov shite i'm trying to get away from. But the electronics is something i would definitely have to pay someone else to do. That and trying to stuff that big engine inside that tiny engine compartment.

There is a engineless 4spd pinto ov the same year as mine at the local yard, and finding a broken Lincoln Mark VIII with a DOHC 4.6 for a few bucks shouldn't be hard. So i might get the two entities together and see what fits and what doesn't one ov these days. My pinto already has the 8".

PintoMaverick

Quote from: 71pintoracer on September 04, 2009, 09:34:24 PM
How about some pics of the Maverick?  :fastcar:

I'll post a link over to the Maverick site soon as I get a few more pics uploaded. Just took the Cobra engine last night to finish fabbing up the engine and trans mounts.

Sorry to the original poster didnt mean to highjack your thread. ;D. I did do some measuring last night and just some info for anyone thinking about this. To put a DOHC 4.6 in a Pinto is going to be a major undertaking. The engine at the widest part is 29" wide! Also since the pans are rear sump you would have to set the engine about 4-6" back into the firewall, I would do this anyway because I wouldn't want that much weight sitting on and forward of the front tires. The exhuast manifolds will be another issue. Using Cobra manifolds would probably be out of the question because they turn out, Mercury Marauder manifolds would be the best bet since the go straight back and turn down and not out to the side. Also the frame rails are narrower in a Pinto about 25" apart where-as a Maverick is 26 1/2" That makes a big difference with the exhaust manifolds. Also some triming of the stock crossmember would probably be needed as well. A cowl or custom hood would be needed, the engine from the shortest part of the pan in the front to the top of the intake manifold is 26". Overall length without the coils poking out in the front is about 24". So your going to need a mig welder and some good fab skills to get this done. I may try this after I get the Maverick done. Can't start it right now until the Maverick is done.
1974 Pinto trunk model, 2000, 4 speed. 1971 Maverick Grabber, 4.6 DOHC 98 Cobra engine, 5speed, Mustang II front suspension, 4 link rear.

71pintoracer

How about some pics of the Maverick?  :fastcar:
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

PintoMaverick

Might as well I've got everything to do it! I could just use the 8in 5-lug rear out of my Mav since it's getting the 8.8. Only thing would be a radiator, exhaust, and update the front suspension. I'd have to get tires and 2 more Cobra R wheels. What to do what to do. I really wanted to do a tubro 2.3 setup which I bought a couple months ago so what would I do with that? lol
1974 Pinto trunk model, 2000, 4 speed. 1971 Maverick Grabber, 4.6 DOHC 98 Cobra engine, 5speed, Mustang II front suspension, 4 link rear.

dholvrsn

'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
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'95 Buick Riviera
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PintoMaverick

What you should do is just buy mine when it's done. Seriously I have another DOHC engine,  basically the complete drivetrain, out of a 96 Cobra I just bought. Seems no one has the money to buy it. So I have this whole drive train and my 74 Pinto and Im thinking about swapping it in the Pinto and then selling it. I've already got a 98 Cobra engine in my 71 Maverick so I know how to do it. Im just debating about what to do....
1974 Pinto trunk model, 2000, 4 speed. 1971 Maverick Grabber, 4.6 DOHC 98 Cobra engine, 5speed, Mustang II front suspension, 4 link rear.

Starsky and Hutch

How far you driveing it ,,,like around the front yard the gas will cost you more than the pinto`s worth ....
1977 Pinto Accent stripe group Runabout                                                                    interior(Code PN) Color (Code R2)

Pale Roader

Yeah well, i'm done with that aggravation. I've been there... for years. Twenty years. It got very VERY old. It was when i started fixing things... ANYTHING that went wrong really, with the Dodge... with an axe, that i decided i should quit trying to build shite in my driveway. On top ov all that, i live in vandalism and crackhead central, so anything left out or 'in progress' is likely to be trashed or ripped off. To say nothing ov the fact i live in a rainforest. ..

Right now i dont even have a driveway to work in. Four car spaces are taken up by four rather big cars, plus another at the girlfriends house. The Pinto has been parked on the lawn for three years. My shop is so full ov Mopar crap (that i'm trying to sell) that i can barely make it to the door. My tools all fit in a bucket that comes with me everywhere i go (because you know, i drive a Mopar... haha).

Right now i'm trying to negotiate a deal with someone who's life DOESN'T zoop to sell me and install a T5 in the Pinto for a big block and tranny i'm selling. He's still balking and i really cant blame him. That might be my project's salvation... swapping parts for work. Now that everyone is broke, it might just be the ticket.

Heh heh... i can get the Pinto running and commuting all cool this way, but i dont own enough parts to trade for a full Cobra drivetrain swap...

popbumper

Pale:

  Good luck on your project. You'll find a lot of folks here that don't have "proper restoration facilities" like Jim and myself, but we both thrust forward and do what we can. I am getting as much done as I can in my driveway, then I will probably rent some space or otherwise. best wishes!

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

hellfirejim

for what it is worth i don't have a garage and only hand tools but you find a way.  don't let that hold you back.  if you want it bad enough then go for it..
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385


Pale Roader

Quote from: hellfirejim on July 24, 2009, 06:35:20 AM
thisis a cool idea.  I would reccommend that you start with a later model Pinto because will be starting out with more engine bay size.  Also there are a lot of aftermarket parts for the suspension since it is the same as MustangII.

But i agree with everyone else, DO IT!  just start a project thread and send plenty of pictures.....

Mine is a 76, so i'm already there. Not sure i'll be tackling this mess ov a project anytime soon however... I dont even have a shop or good tools right now.

hellfirejim

thisis a cool idea.  I would reccommend that you start with a later model Pinto because will be starting out with more engine bay size.  Also there are a lot of aftermarket parts for the suspension since it is the same as MustangII.

But i agree with everyone else, DO IT!  just start a project thread and send plenty of pictures.....
It's a good day to be alive!
PCCA Pinto Number #385


Pale Roader

Okay, i've had LOTS ov cool cars with lots ov cool exhaust systems, but i cant get enough ov this damn GT. I'm gonna get into trouble here, i cant go to the corner store without hitting 4000+ at least twice. And this is the early 4.62V... the worst 4.6 ever built.

I wanna put a 4V mod into my Challenger. I wanna buy my 70 Imperial and put a 4V mod in IT too. I think the hearse might be a tad heavy though...

I AM going to find a way to 'professionally' swap a 4.6DOHC into my Pinto. It has absolutely GOT to happen. I dont know how... i dont know when... but i need a '76/'71 Pinto with a 96-99 Cobra powertrain...

Just thinking as well... i wonder what would happen if you took a 3600lb Cobra and hacked 1200-1300lbs out ov it..?.?? They run high 13's and get close to 30mpg highway at 3600lbs...

Pale Roader

Quote from: Dan on July 18, 2009, 11:36:51 PM
:fastcar:So the 4-cyl isn't good enough. You need to put in another 4-cyl. Well I'll tell bigger isn't always best.
  The 460 isn't impossible but a lot of work to look normal in there. First the firewall was moved 7" back the rebuilt and a new tunnel, remember the car relies on that firewall for strength. next the crossmember could go lower, the reattach the rack.
the engine mounts are LTD 429 style. then make mounts to weld to frame. the engine oil pan is ford truck 4-wd. the trans i used is large size C-4 model with 351M bellhousing. The headers match 24" width of the framerails so you go over and out the fenders, the down to outside the frame. the brake master is hot rod style on floor. springs are mustang II with 1 coil removed then stuffed in there. the carb almost hits the cowl. It's a blast to drive. Lots of crazy looks at car shows. Since the 4.6 is wider and exhaust goes real low, that will be the trouble. But why not try, good luck and show pictures of my car if i can figure that out. See ya Dan.

Hah! Crazy stuff.

A couple ov key differences might make the 4.6 a bit easier... Its got to be a shorter engine for one, the 460 has a good deck height, like the Mopar 440, tall, the 4.6 is really only wide and only 'cause ov the heads. Maybe the thing will sit as low as a 5.0L unless heads/exhaust get in the way? And secondly, its not a long engine. That 460, with its massive bore is a long one. The 4.6 is only a 281cid engine, and it doesn't have a lot going in ahead ov the heads, no long water pumps, etc. Just a shallow serpentine system. Again, this might help with the firewall. Last time i looked at it the firewall WAS in the way ov a clean DOHC 4.6 install, but i bet i could get away with less than 7"... thats kinda drastic.

Also, they did kinda design the new 4.6 to fit where the 5.0L was, so maybe those pipes will still fit in between the frame rails? Again, the 4.6 is gonna be narrower than the big 460 (with its big crank) at the pan, so maybe those pipes could be sucked tight to the plant and out under the chassis? I dont know, never been under my Pinto yet.

Hey... maybe Hooker makes a 4.6DOHC/Pinto swap header...??.? Haha

Really, the 4.6 is not long, tall, or heavy (about as heavy as a 5.0L with aluminum heads actually!)... its just WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE... So maybe it would come down to shock towers and exhaust routing...?.?? I'm betting the steering is gonna be in the way too. I should head up to the wrecker and get some measurements from that 76 Pinto they got sitting there with no engine. Heh heh... maybe i could convince the guy to drop one ov his 'kickin' around' 4.6's in the hole to see what hits...

Dan, thanks for the input. I'd love to see pictures.


Dan

 :fastcar:So the 4-cyl isn't good enough. You need to put in another 4-cyl. Well I'll tell bigger isn't always best.
   The 460 isn't impossible but a lot of work to look normal in there. First the firewall was moved 7" back the rebuilt and a new tunnel, remember the car relies on that firewall for strength. next the crossmember could go lower, the reattach the rack.
the engine mounts are LTD 429 style. then make mounts to weld to frame. the engine oil pan is ford truck 4-wd. the trans i used is large size C-4 model with 351M bellhousing. The headers match 24" width of the framerails so you go over and out the fenders, the down to outside the frame. the brake master is hot rod style on floor. springs are mustang II with 1 coil removed then stuffed in there. the carb almost hits the cowl. It's a blast to drive. Lots of crazy looks at car shows. Since the 4.6 is wider and exhaust goes real low, that will be the trouble. But why not try, good luck and show pictures of my car if i can figure that out. See ya Dan.
Nothing like a 460 under the hood!!!

Pale Roader


Man, the more i drive my girl's 96 GT, with its brand new Dr. Gas offroad-X/Spintech exhaust (which sounds absolutely glorious by the way) the more i think about this swap. If the 4V mod was as easy an install as the 5.0L i'd already be halfway through it...

This is quickly becoming my dream project...

redmustangman3

As an adder to my post on Dan's 460 V8 Pinto; his PCCA name is Dan- go figure?? I would send him a PM. Good luck- Joe in Morgan Hill, CA
1971- 289 V8; B&M C4; 9" with 4:11 posi. Several suspension upgrades and body modifications.
1974- 2.3L wagon,4-spd,totally stock. Medium lime yellow, avacado interior, 99k miles.
1972- 1984 Mustang SVO turbo; 5-speed tremec; 9" rear w/positraction; fiberglass front & doors; upgraded suspension.

RSM

460 in a Pinto???...thats gootta be a rocket...lol

redmustangman3

There is a guy named Dan that attends the Knott's car show each year in Southern California. He has a beautiful 460 V8 Pinto; very clean installation. I don't know his PCCA name but hopefully he will see this post and respond. Joe in Morgan Hill, CA. The Ford 4.6 swap sounds very interesting.
1971- 289 V8; B&M C4; 9" with 4:11 posi. Several suspension upgrades and body modifications.
1974- 2.3L wagon,4-spd,totally stock. Medium lime yellow, avacado interior, 99k miles.
1972- 1984 Mustang SVO turbo; 5-speed tremec; 9" rear w/positraction; fiberglass front & doors; upgraded suspension.

phils toys

I have never seen one in person eather, but mu understanding is the iner fenders ar complealy removerd ant the fire wall is modified as well as the radiator support(this is commin with all v8 swaps) so i guess it Is " a full-custom full fabrication, hack and weld everything type deal"
phils toys
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

Pale Roader


First off, let me assure you i do NOT want to put a 460 in my Pinto, ever. I DO however want to someday stuff a Ford 4.6DOHC mod motor and T-45 in there. These engines are actually wider than 460's and other big blocks, about the same width as a 426 hemi. Has anyone ever seen a 4.6 mod pinto?

What is involved in swapping a 460 into a pinto? Is it a full-custom full fabrication, hack and weld everything type deal? or can it be fairly stock and streetable? There ARE a few 460 pintos out there, but i've never seen one up close. If a 460 fits okay, then maybe just maybe a 4.6 would too...???

That would be my dream-pinto, and a dream car actually, no less than my finished T/A Challenger. A 4.6 Cobra motored 5 or 6 spd pinto. That would be hot. Any ideas?