Mini Classifieds

pintos for sale
Date: 12/11/2018 04:29 pm
Wanted 71-73 Pinto grill
Date: 03/09/2019 10:45 pm
2.3 carb intake

Date: 07/15/2020 09:25 pm
Need Mustang II Manual Transmission Mount
Date: 04/21/2017 02:03 pm
Need 2.3 timing cover
Date: 08/10/2018 11:41 am
Wanted 73 pinto squire wagon
Date: 05/09/2020 11:59 am
Gas Tank Sending Unit
Date: 05/22/2018 02:17 pm
1980 Pinto taillights
Date: 12/26/2017 03:48 pm
72 pinto and 88 turbo coupe

Date: 06/09/2016 04:13 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,573
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 656
  • Online ever: 1,722 (Yesterday at 02:19:48 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 573
  • Total: 573
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

What do to now with this 2.8 V6

Started by volksnut, February 18, 2007, 12:19:58 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

wagonmaster

Hello,

If you're still in need, I have a rebuilt 2.8 short block I was going to put in a '77 Pinto wagon I have, but that's not going to happen anymore. I also have some rebuilt heads and a bunch of V6 parts available. thewgnmstr@yahoo.com

Brien
Brien - wagonmaster
'85 LTD LX
'85 LTD Squire wagon

douglasskemp

I will leave this one up to Harry.  You may want to email him.  Judging by what he has posted already, he has more knowledge of the old Cologne V6s than most.
The Pinto I had I gave to my brother. The car was originally my mom's, (78 red Pinto sedan with a 2.3 and a 4spd.) I am originally from Tucson, AZ but moved to Oxnard CA :D
I'm looking for a Pinto wagon with an automatic.

volksnut

it looks to me that most parts will interchange, but they (74 Mustang/83 Ranger) take different intake manifold gaskets...Whats the diffence the by water bypass?...Which intake should I use or gasket?

douglasskemp

Quote from: bigh4th on March 08, 2007, 01:45:18 PM
Any year 2.8 will be pretty much a bolt-in swap. With an 83-85 ranger or bronco II you'll have to swap the oil filter adapter, and possibly the intake manifold (due to a different water neck), but everything else is a direct bolt on. These engines also made 115 hp compared to the 80 or so in the pinto.

What Harry said.  Also, I take back the 2.9L idea.  I didn't know about the cam oiling issues.

Quote from: bigh4th on February 24, 2007, 08:31:17 AM
The 2.9 (which is based off the 2.8L)  Has a very poor upper oil system because ford tried to add hydraulic lifters to an engine designed for solid lifters.  Basically, the cam gets starved for oil on higher-mileage engines (or engines that are gunked up) and it wears the cam bearings out which kills even more oil pressure.  The 2.8 did NOT have this problem.  The 2.9 Is a piece of junk.  Ford took everything good about the 2.8 and screwed it up.
The Pinto I had I gave to my brother. The car was originally my mom's, (78 red Pinto sedan with a 2.3 and a 4spd.) I am originally from Tucson, AZ but moved to Oxnard CA :D
I'm looking for a Pinto wagon with an automatic.

volksnut

well I found this one on e bay, rebuilt long block for $550 + shipping....now it is for that 83-86 Ranger,Bronco II and Aerostar...think it will work? Thanks for the help so far
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-83-84-85-86-RANGER-AEROSTAR-BRONCO-II-2-8L-ENGINE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQitemZ290098525957QQrdZ1

douglasskemp

Volksnut, where are you located?  It may be more financially beneficial for you to just buy an entire vehicle (Ranger or Bronco II) and then just pull the 2.8L out of it and sell the rest for scrap.  There is a B2 on EvilBay right now with a rusted out body for $200.  It is in Hartville, Ohio, wherever that is.

Have you tried wrecking yards?  I know when I would go to the ones in Tucson I would see Rangers and Bronco IIs in them all the time, most with the motors in them still complete.

You may want to look about the possibility of swapping in a 2.9L in it's place, but if I remember right they were all EFI (I may be wrong.)

Also, if you have some fabrication skills, and are not afraid of wiring in an EFI, why not try throwing a 4.0L in there.

In 1974 the Mustang II only came with the 2.3 and the 2.8 from the factory.  I am sure someone at one time or another has stuffed a V8 in there.  The 75-78 Mustang IIs came with the V8 as an option, but the front nose on the Mustang II was modified slightly in 1975 to fit it.
--Doug
The Pinto I had I gave to my brother. The car was originally my mom's, (78 red Pinto sedan with a 2.3 and a 4spd.) I am originally from Tucson, AZ but moved to Oxnard CA :D
I'm looking for a Pinto wagon with an automatic.

volksnut

so what to do now...it's getting pretty hard to find that V6, anyone swap out a different type motor, 2.3 or maybe?....what will fit in that engine bay?

Srt

turn some of the stuff into a paperweight and give it to your daughter for christmas as a reminder to listen to dear old dad for once.  ( i have a 16year old and she's killing me)
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

douglasskemp

WOW!  And I thought MY broken piston was neat looking.  You beat me!
:surprised: :amazed:
The Pinto I had I gave to my brother. The car was originally my mom's, (78 red Pinto sedan with a 2.3 and a 4spd.) I am originally from Tucson, AZ but moved to Oxnard CA :D
I'm looking for a Pinto wagon with an automatic.

volksnut

Well I'm up a creek without a paddle....I found a short block from a builder on e bay...man what a deal....well that was until I got it and found out it was a 2.6...shizod!....well I'll keep my ears and eyes open for one, I can only keep the daughter without a car for so long....I got the old unit out and disassembled...it threw #2 rod and took out the piston, rod, cylinder, crank and block...hum, that's not good


bigh4th

http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductModelDetail.cfm?ProductModelId=3106

Thats the master kit for the 83-86 2.8.  Call them and ask them to switch the cam and cam bearings for a 74-79 2.8.  Everything else will work without a hitch, and the higher compression pistons will get you a boost in power over the stockers.

Any year 2.8 will be pretty much a bolt-in swap. With an 83-85 ranger or bronco II (they're also in the 86 aerostar, but rare as hen's teeth)  you'll have to swap the oil filter adapter, and possibly the intake manifold (due to a different water neck), but everything else is a direct bolt on. These engines also made 115 hp compared to the 80 or so in the pinto.

Rebuilt short blocks also pop up on ebay a lot as well.

-Harry

volksnut

well I got the call today...she's stuck on the interstate..did I tell her to drive it there...NO!, anyway....the motor has a nice rod knock now....so a rebuilt unit or a rebuild is in order...who has rebuilt units if I go that route?

bigh4th

Quote from: 77turbopinto on February 19, 2007, 06:16:56 AM
I do know from others that they do eat cams faster than a 2.3 as well, and have issues with cam bearings. I put an oil pump, main and rod bearings in my 2.9 only to find out my cam bearings were the cause of my low oil pressure.

The 2.9 (which is based off the 2.8)  Has a very poor upper oil system because ford tried to add hydraulic lifters to an engine designed for solid lifters.  Basicly, the cam gets starved for oil on higher-mileage engines (or engines that are gunked up) and it wears the cam bearings out which kills even more oil pressure.  The 2.8 did NOT have this problem.  The 2.9 Is a piece of junk.  Ford took everything good about the 2.8 and screwed it up.

Now as far as the original post, the best place I've found for 2.8 rebuild kits is Northern Autoparts.  I'm not 100% sure if they "list" a kit for the 74-79 2.8, but they do list one for the 82-86 2.8.  The only internal difference is that ford enlarged the cam journals for the 82-86 2.8, so you would have  to get the right cam bearings for your 74-79.

Another added bonus of the 82-86 kit is that if you get the master kit with pistons, they have slightly higher compression than the 74-79 engines.

I would rebuild (if needed) the 2.8 if I were you.  They're easy engines to work on, and you can actualy get some cheap performance out of them if you know a few tricks.

-Harry

volksnut

on accel ..I did notice the noise earlier (it's the daughters car) driving at about 50 mph...I asked her how long has it been doing that....so I checked the u joints as thats what it sounded like, it wasn't that.....so now I'm hearing a similar sound just above idle, around 2000rpm? It almost sounds like maybe the flywheel or p/p is loose, kind of like a rumble, something out of balance?

77turbopinto

Is the noise louder on accel or decel?

Sounds like you need a rebuild from what you said, but without ME being there, it is hard to confirm. I do know from others that they do eat cams faster than a 2.3 as well, and have issues with cam bearings. I put an oil pump, main and rod bearings in my 2.9 only to find out my cam bearings were the cause of my low oil pressure. A knock started very soon aftter, but it is a woods beater in NH so when it goes, oh well....

It is not that big of a deal to convert to a 2.3, but yes you will need a tranny.

If you are looking at the least expensive and quickest fix, a re-built engine from an auto parts store is the way to go. Swap it and you should be good to go IF you keep it stock. IF you plan on doing ANY performance stuff, SWAP to a 2.3. You can get more DURABLE power from a 2.3. You should be able to sell the tired V6 and all the anccilary stuff on ebay.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

volksnut

yeah it's got a light, I was thinking of hooking up a gauge just to see whats up....it only comes on at idle, about a heavy ficker..when you let the clutch out it will come on til you pick up speed, yes the valves need adjusting, they do tick but this sound is a bit different....time to get out the doctors sethoscope  ;)

crazyhorse

Does this car have an oil guage or a light? If it's a light, you may wanna buy an el-cheapo guage to hook up. Get you a second opinion on the lack of pressure. Yes the 2.8 is a solid lift cam. If not adjusted it will "peck" in the valve covers. Did the light come on all at once? or did it flicker for awhile? If it came on all at once, I'd suspect the oil pump. Flickering can be a number of things, from worn main bearings to sludge buildup.

Best of luck diagnosing this.

Worst case, PAW may not be the cheapest, but they generally carry top notch parts.
How to tell when a redneck's time is up: He combines these two sentences... Hey man, hold my beer. Hey y'all watch this!
'74 Runabout, stock 2300,auto  RIP Darlin.
'95 Olds Gutless "POS"
'97 Subaru Legacy wagon "Kat"

Cookieboystoys

I personally don't have any knowledge on kits for a rebuild, haven't looked into it much as I don't have any idea how to rebuild a motor myself. I'm faced with a similar situation with the 77 wagon I have (a tired old engine) and from what I found a rebuilt short or long block is the route I will most likely take. A local machine shop in these neck of the woods will charge much more to rebuild a motor vs one rebuilt by a big shop shipped to me. I am hoping by the time I decide it's time to replace mine I will be able to do it myself but I may end up having it done by a pro.

If you plan on doing the rebuild yourself I'm sure someone here on the site might be able to give you more info on what to get.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

volksnut

if I decide to rebuild, who has the best kit

Cookieboystoys

sounds like what happened to my first 76 V6 mustang... no oil pressure.

my opinion... rebuild it if you want to keep it, converting to a 4 cyl should require mods (motor, trans and electrical - I could be wrong but..) and should cost more in the long run to swap to a 4 cyl.

also.. as I recall.. w/the v6 motor the valves need manual adjusting or it could produce a sound like a bag of marbles, I call it a rattle. May not be the issue since you have no oil pressure but can be another reason for the rattle. My 78 V6 sounds like what you describe but only when reved up as well, doesn't sound to bad at idle, gets much worse when reved up.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

volksnut

well it's a 74 Mustang II and at idle the oil pressure light is now on all the time, also when rev'ed up sounds like a bag of marbles in the lower end, thought originally the U joints were going while on the highway (early on)....should it be rebuilt or look for a 2.3 to install...it's the daughters car and she loves it...what year should I look for to swap or is there a market on rebuilding the 2.8...hope someone can give some advise