Mini Classifieds

74 Pinto Hub Caps & Trim Rings

Date: 02/18/2017 04:47 pm
New cam

Date: 01/23/2017 05:11 pm
hood for a 79-80
Date: 11/30/2018 10:55 pm
Instrument Panel with Tach wanted
Date: 05/15/2022 11:36 am
Free 2.0L Valve Cover

Date: 01/03/2023 04:27 pm
Clutch Pedals for 75to 80 Pinto
Date: 09/21/2018 11:35 am
71-73 sway bar
Date: 06/12/2021 10:12 am
Deluxe Steering Wheel
Date: 10/16/2017 08:13 am
Wanted 1971-73 pinto 2.0 4 speed manual transmission
Date: 03/06/2019 06:40 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 2,670
  • Online ever: 2,670 (Today at 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 468
  • Total: 468
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

who has done a limited slip transplant to a Pinto...

Started by goodolboydws, April 06, 2006, 11:35:31 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

dirt track demon

Favorite place to race:on the xbox

Fomoco's biggest achievement:
The PINTO!!

Fomoco's biggest mistake:
Not offering a V-8 Pinto!!!!!!!

wagonmaster

Hey DTD, 79panel here!

You may want to clean those glasses...or maybe put them on?!?  ???   ;D The guy was talking about the 7.5 units in the Rangers and that he thought they may be the same width as the Pinto. I know posi units are still available for those units.
Brien - wagonmaster
'85 LTD LX
'85 LTD Squire wagon

dirt track demon

If you have the non removable carrier(bolts on the back of the pumpkin) it is a  6 3/4 inch rear.

  You could get an 8" rear in any size pinto, it doesn't have to be a 6 cyl or wagon. Ive had a few 4 bangers with the 8" in it.  You will probably be wanting 3.00:1 gears for it. if you want a little more power your next choice would be 3.40.  But for a stock street car you will be using as a work vehicle I wouldn't go any lower, than 3.40.  If you go higher than 3.00  you wont be able to get out of your own way.

  Im not sure on this, but does anyone know, did they even offer the 6.75 with a posi unit??
 
  The guy thinking it is a  7.5"  you would be correct if we were discussing 80's mustangs, but pinto's never came with a 7.5" rear.
Favorite place to race:on the xbox

Fomoco's biggest achievement:
The PINTO!!

Fomoco's biggest mistake:
Not offering a V-8 Pinto!!!!!!!

robw

from what i know a early 80's ranger rear end is the same width as the pinto but i'm not sure. but what i am sure of is it is a 7.5'' rear and that jegs or summit sells a limited slip diff, or your could get a 9'' from a early bronco and slip that in there. if you wanted to raise the rear a little bit (about 3 inches) you could always put the springs on top of the axle  instead of underneath, youd have to weld on new perchs.

goodolboydws

MUST HAVE HIT THE WRONG KEY-too stiff fingers.

As I was saying:
I'm not very hopeful of coming across a 4 cylinder Pinto/Bobcat wagon with the larger diameter REMOVEABLE carrier style differential, (which would be an easier swap, but at least according to information I have on hand that type of differential wasn't offerred on any of these cars WITHOUT the vehicle also having a 6 cylinder engine)  or the smaller diameter one in a limited slip version, I'm not looking forward to it, but expecting to probably have to do a whole rear end swap.

I'm also intending to end up with a reasonable factory gear ratio for more "normal" as well as highway driving, rather than a performance purposed 4.11 or something else numerically high, but with an automatic trans driving it, it might have to be slightly higher than if it was being teamed with a manual gear box.

If it was a Pinto to Pinto rear end swap, I wouldn't expect it to be much of a problem for clearances and dimensions, and maybe not any problem with mating up the driveshaft with the diff. and transmission, but aren't most of the other Ford rear ends, even those from an early Mustang or a Mustang ll, a wider width than the Pinto ones? I'm asking, I don't have any definitive info.


A link to a site that has the hard info on factory available gear ratios would be appreciated. As would any tips on tag codes for determining if a particular differential is LS, so a visual ID could be done.  On the Ford cars I've owned, the axle tag usually had the actual numerical ratio stamped into it, so it could be read directly-without translation.  Were ALL of the Pintos tagged this way?


On a related note, I'm thinking of trying to use a Ford AOD transmission if I find a suitable Pinto that has the C-3 or C-4 when/if the original one gives out, (or if it is blown), and if it will fit without much trouble.  I don't know if the Mustang ll was sold with one or not, but if so, it may have a small enough housing to work. Any input? I'll post this part again separately later so it's easier to find..

goodolboydws

Keep the info coming, folks.

I'm sort of working from the hypothesis that any Pinto or Bobcat wagon that I come acroos that came from the factory with a 4 cylinder engine would have had the integral carrier diferential, so

dirt track demon

Find out if it is an 8 or 6.75, and if you can the gear ratio, and maybe someone already has one with the same gear ratio, then you wont have to mess with setting the backlash. and it will be a simple swap.
Favorite place to race:on the xbox

Fomoco's biggest achievement:
The PINTO!!

Fomoco's biggest mistake:
Not offering a V-8 Pinto!!!!!!!

dirt track demon

As for your original question its not that hard.  jack it up, take the tires off, the brake drums, 4 nuts, pull the axles out a little.  driveshaft off, bunch of nuts on the pumpkin, lots of swearing as you wrestle out the carrier, put in the posi carrier, swear some more, and put the rest of it back together. ( if it is an 8 inch).  someone on here has to have a posi carrier for sale. 
Favorite place to race:on the xbox

Fomoco's biggest achievement:
The PINTO!!

Fomoco's biggest mistake:
Not offering a V-8 Pinto!!!!!!!

UltimatePinto

If you are talking about a 6 & 3/4" rear differential, I have one that has a limited slip that I got from Jerry Walsh, (original "Racer Walsh"), while he was still, (I think), racing and lived in Suffern New York.

I don't remember the manufacturer, but the unit was advertised for a Mustang II. I also purchased a set of 4:11 gears to go with it. Some time ago I also purchased a crush ring off of E-Bay that was advertised as a replacement for a 6 & 3/4 Ford Rear, once used they need to be replaced for a new install. This part goes along with the pinion shaft during it's final install. I don't know all that much about setting up rear ends, but visual tooth contact with red lead or dykhem and gear backlash settings with a dial indicator are critical from what little I do know. As far as a new pinion seal goes, I haven't a clue.

As for finding a different gear ratio, you might win the lottery first, as I don't think that they are available anymore. Randy's Ring & Pinion in Califiornia is a good a place as any to start. I'll bet that you are not far from a race track, and that there are folks in your area who know how to do this if you don't.

My present set up is an 8", and I'm not using my original. Only one problem with my original, the axel tubes leak where they go into the pumpkin. One to many hole shots I suppose. However there are a lot of these rear ends available in this community. I still have two more myself, I think, in my parts pile. I will say that the unit is still in good operating condition, (minus the leaks), as far as I know.

If your interested, let me know as I was/am considering putting it on E-Bay. I would rather offer it to someone in this community first.

Al

madmax96101

sorry I can't really help you with that. I have my pinto in my vw bus with the limited slip differential. that's how I got the van was with the pinto engine in it. some work and she'll be like new.

goodolboydws

Who here has done a limited slip transplant to a Pinto?

I'm trying to determine how feasible it is to do for a daily driver, and if someone has already done it on a Pinto, especially on one with automatic transmission, I'd like to benefit from their experience.  Like knowing what was used by someone else as a donor vehicle for the rear end, what all was necessary to swap/change/convert and how it actually ended up working out in the long run, that sort of thing.

We live in an area that has a lot of poorly paved patchy blacktop, as well as gravel and some dirt roads, plus mostly un-level terrain besides, so there are definitely places where having more than only the possibility of the right rear wheel providing the only source of drive would be a plus.

I currently drive an '87 Crown Vic wagon, (with a factory LS diff.), to do deliveries on a rural paper route. t's got a lot of extra weight on the rear end besides, having a class lll heavy frame hitch and it's fine in terms of traction and handling even in marginal conditions, but I'm looking for something that's reliable, stone simple to keep on the road, and much better on gas.

I'm also thinking of raising the body somewhat as there are some really uneven places that I need to access, maybe with spring spacers in front and air shocks or slightly taller springs in the rear.  (Having air shocks and a HD towing suspension with coil over shocks up front on the Vic's now helps keep me high enough now to stay out of trouble-most of the time. )

I get about 13.5mpg in this kind of stop and go delivery type driving.

We live in the Midsouth (eastern Tennessee), where snow is infrequent and road salt is only occasionally used, so older cars such as this regularly turn up with decent bodies and relatively good condition chassis components. I owned several Pintos long term, years ago, both stick and automatic, even running my brothers'  '71 runabout with the 2000cc engine and 4 speed up to 201K before selling it, still with the head never having been off, and getting 1000 miles per quart of oil. (I HAD changed the valve springs, and oil seals.) I did most of the maintenance myself even then,  so I  know what to expect in terms of both maintenance and performance, and vehicle age plus those aspects aren't slowing my interest in the possibility of using a Pinto for this purpose.


Neither 4WD nor front wheel drive are really necessary as far as I've been able to determine, and I'd just as soon deal with something that doesn't have the added cost of maintenance and complexity of either.  I also driven my wifes' FWD  on the same route for most of a month, and didn't see much difference in getting around, but the mileage was CONSIDERABLY better. 

thanks