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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Martha Splatterhead's '71 stock 2.0 >>> higher performance rebuild

Started by sagesunrise, July 22, 2005, 10:32:21 PM

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UltimatePinto

Hi Tiffany,
Less that 5000 miles on the engine?
Awh heck, that's hardly broke in. You can give it a barnyard mechanic test when you take the head off. Just run your fingernail up a cylinder wall and feel how much of a bulge you have when you reach towards the top of the cylinder, (the point where the top piston ring can not go any further, from there down is mileage wear), if you can feel a moderate difference that most likely you have a pretty fair amount of milage.

As far as valve seats goes, are you concerned about the lack of lead in the gasoline? I'm not sure on this one but I don't think that you have anything to worry about here. When I had the oversized valves installed on my head I don't think that the folks put in any steel valve seats, although I don't know.

Good for you that your project is in the long run. Once you have decided where you want to go with your engine, the only thing left is patience and of course, $$. However, I think that I may assure you once done, hills will NOT be a factor as you go on your way.

I hope to give everyone a glance of my pride & joy 2 Liter on the Project Page soon. Then you will see what a serious nutcase has spent his $$ into and where it will wind up.

Rock On Pinto's

Al

sagesunrise

Al, thank you for your words of encouragement and wisdom. I do have an 8" rear on Martha. It came from a 1979 Mustang II with a V6. The current 2.0 has a Headman Header installed. My tranny has low miles and works like a charm. The car runs great. I just had a new rack/pinion put on. The engine is still strong, just some issues with valve seats, I believe. Nothing that I am worried about at this time, just something that I monitor. I did obtain Vizards book from our fellow fordpinto.com member, mcrouthamel, who I want to thank again for selling me this book. I think I am going to take the advice of you all and concentrate on the head. As you can see in the pic of the spare above, the engine is pretty fresh. I believe the gentleman who rebuilt it is into car racing and rebuilds them all of the time. This engine most likely has less that 5000 miles on it, if that, but I still want to dig into it and modify it for my needs, and so that I know exactly what is inside. I need just a bit more power up hills, etc. My Martha is pretty darn gutless on the hills. I do plan on drawing this project out probably for a couple of years. I would not be able to complete it over this winter-schedule too full already. My current 2.0 starts right up with a couple ticks on the gas pedal and a bump of the key. It has lots of life left yet. I will never sell the pinto. It is priceless to me.
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug

UltimatePinto

Well you have all winter to go about your rebuild, so time should not be a factor for you, for the most part.
If you need any Two Liter engine parts, please let me know. I've two or three complete engines plus all kinds of parts, as a good number of the rest of us probably do. Not too much in the Hi-Po area but lots of accoutrement's. Four speed tranny's also. Plus, and here's a sneak preview, a limited slip 6 & 3/4 rear end with 4:11 gears. This will wind up on E-bay someday as the axel shafts leak oil where they go into the pumpkin. Have another unit, (stock), plus the crush ring and some rear cover plate gaskets that will go with it.   Gone to eight inch, - don't need it anymore.
Anyway, have you decided how far you wish to go with your project?
Did you ever get ahold of Mr. Vizard's book? Pretty through I think for my favorite Pinto engine, will go to 2300 land someday but my heart is still with # 2.

One thing I think I may call certain  -  in  general   -  money invested in motor vehicles stands the least chance for a return. The investment, (the way I see it is one way), I see is for your own pleasure, and I suppose you can not put a price tag on that. You may find someone who may wish to pay for your efforts as in investment, but I would not hold your breath. However If it feels good, it's the way. Having said this, I by no means wish to discourage you, just wish to make you aware of options.

For what you have described as your final wish as far as performance goes, I would suggest concentrating your efforts on the cylinder head. Everything below that, (the basic  engine assembly,  -  crank - rods - pistons, - etc), will take care of it self. This part of the engine is by design, the strongest part. No worry here about blowing up.
With the cyl Head, fuel delivery and exhaust go hand in hand. You may wish to look at intakes and headers. Porting  - larger valves  - camshafts - It's all up to you.
Santa is coming,  You better be good, or you won't have all of the gizzies that make your efforts come to ignition under the tree.
I'm pretty sure that all of the elves that abound in the group will still be around when you need answers.
Please keep us posted.

Al

sagesunrise

A picture of the stock 2.0 out of the '71 shell that we used to put Martha back on the road. This is the day we brought it home in the back of my old F250. This is the engine that I will slowly rebuild. And there's George H's C4 tranny attached!
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug

mcrouthamel

Sage,
I have a copy of Vizzards book I am willing to part with.
If interested, let me know.
mcrouthamel@direcway.com

77pintocw

Hey sagesunrise:

There is a copy out there at the following URL:

http://www.antiqbook.com/books/bookinfo.phtml?nr=184846913

It is listed for $27.06 USD

The book store is in the UK.

77pintocw
1977, Pinto Cruising Wagon, White with Blue Graphics

sagesunrise

Boy, you guys are the best. I am very thankful for all of the advice and assistance. I looked on ebay and half.com for the book and don't see it yet, but will keep looking. I have a modest budget, but because I am spanning the rebuild out over time, it's not a big deal. I think I am going to keep the engine "middle-of-the-road" - not too suped up but just a little. It would be nice to burn 'em off once in a while. As it is now, Martha does not like burn outs-feels like the tranny's gonna drop each time I try. Although I did get one out of her one day when she was feeling peppy. Keep your advice coming, I am appreciating it very much.

Tif
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug

UltimatePinto

I finaly found mine, took some diggin', but I got it.

ISBN #  0 86343 0856

Published by:

Fountain Press Ltd
Fountain House
2 Gladstone Road
Kingstone upon Thames
Surrey KT1 3ND

First Published 1984

Reprinted 1990 - 92 - 95 - 99

(I think that the address is in Merry Old England !)

I again would suggest gittin' ahold of Walsh, they still may have some.

Al ;)
in Ct.

TonyB

Tiffany,
I have a big valve head....when I had my 2.0 on the road, with the T5, I got 25MPG from Havasu, AZ to Chino, Ca.   >250miles on almost one tank!

I also turned an untuned but consistent 16.6@87 @ carlsbad.   I actually raced an AMX, heads up....had him out of the hole (I spun 10' posi), but he caught me on the big end.   I was also one of the few cars there that could get there and back on one tank of gas!   What a blast...but I digress

It ain't cheap, but there are several performance options from mild to wild.   From what Al was saying about a mild cam & intake to big valve head (like mine) to turbo (yes on a 2.0).   I also highly reccomend Vizards book....I have one, and actually took the book apart & put it in sheet protectors, just so I wouldn't get it greasy!   I can't find it right now, Just moved into a new house & the disarray still exists.   I'll try to get the ISBN for you, may make the search easier.

Here's the guy that actually built my head, back in '90 with a similar book: http://www.aptfast.com/APT_Parts/Books/Book_Info/B-41_info.htm

HTH

Tony


It's really up to you & what your goals vs. budget are.
'72 Pinto Runabout, 2.0, Big Valve head, T-5, 8" w/ 3.73 Posi.   Currently awaiting $$$ & Time

Pintony

Quote from: sagesunrise on August 18, 2005, 08:52:32 PM
When I was in high school, I really liked a local band named The Accused. They had a mascot named Martha Splatterhead. They were a crazy band and Martha was a crazy girl that "zooped Brains". For those of you familiar with the band Iron Maiden, she is similar to Eddie. Anyway, in high school, everyone called me Martha Splatterhead. Since I already had a name, I just started calling my pinto Martha Splatterhead cause we were always together. By the way, The Accused is still around. Love 'em!

NICE!!!!!

sagesunrise

When I was in high school, I really liked a local band named The Accused. They had a mascot named Martha Splatterhead. They were a crazy band and Martha was a crazy girl that "S*cked Brains". For those of you familiar with the band Iron Maiden, she is similar to Eddie. Anyway, in high school, everyone called me Martha Splatterhead. Since I already had a name, I just started calling my pinto Martha Splatterhead cause we were always together. By the way, The Accused is still around. Love 'em!
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug

Poison Pinto 79 Turbo

Love that name! How did you come up with that? Now i'm jealous...I've gotta come up with a name for my baby when she's done.
                                                      George
( George Hewitt) This is my first Pinto, bought from the original owners 3yrs. ago. It has 45k original miles, came with the original bill of sale, warranty copy metal V.I.N. Plate, and the owners manual too! It is a 2.3, 4spd. man.car (for now) its in the body shop right now getting ready for paint

UltimatePinto

Good choice,
Being different in the car show scene has it's ups and downs.
I would almost bet money that you will get the same reaction someday.
It seems as though there is a mind set, propagated by the magazines as to what is " PROPER " to what one brings to a show for others to consider.
I want to see diversity, haven't seen it so far, that's why I love to be different. I wish you your best in your project, as has already been stated, take your time.
This forum consists of a lot of well meaning people who consider what is best for all and may not understand the questions and needs, at times, of the beginners.
I have answered your questions as best as I can considering you as a first timer.
Continue your research in this formum, it will always be your most rewarding source of information.
Al
i8n Ct.

sagesunrise

"Two buddies of mine got their Pinto's kicked out of a car show the other night. It seems as though the Camero and Mustang clone crowd didn't like the attention being drawn away from them"

Al, too funny! I see a lot of Vette's around my area and always wonder if I were to park next to them, where the eyes would fall. Everyone has a Mustang, Camara, Vette.

Wow, you really are into modifying your car quite a bit. I don't plan on doing that much, but it is interesting to read. I have a very good undercarridge and suspension and probably won't mess with them. I am going to build my second engine to drop right in. The expensive parts are still within my limits, as long as they fit my need. I just want to hop up the pony a bit, while still keeping the gas enonomical and the car pretty stock. And of course, the new engine will be shiney!
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug

UltimatePinto

Hi Pintony,
No, I wasn't using a backhoe for my first attempt, just a die grinder and a carbide. I guess that I'll never play the piano either.
My suggestion to Tiffany was made from my own inexperience. There are situations where it is better to have someone with more know how do something for you, especially when you have limited resources, (2000cc cylinder heads),that can not be easily replaced.
As for the larger valves, I'm for them all the way. I was considering what was being asked for improvement as to expense.
When all is done perhaps the bug will bite a little more and the # 1225 roller cam may be installed along with the cam tower straps, big valves, long adjusting studs, and lash caps. Add to this the porting of both intakes and exhausts to Mr. Vizard's specifications, and having the cam reground so that you don't have the cam bearings being replaced every other month.
From there custom pistons may also be obtained along with a flywheel and clutch assembly. Be sure to have all of the rotating assembly balanced while your at it.
Fabricate a 2300 bellhousing to fit a 2000 engine, (this I can do and rather well I think as I can wire feed weld aluminum), place this on a T-5, add an auto tranny drive shaft and hook it to an eight inch rear with a limited slip differential with 4.11 gears.
Then for jollies. take a close look at the rear torque boxes that the spring shackles hook up to. If you have a 72 or 71 you will understand where the bad publicity for Pintos comes from. Replace them with four inch square tube. Fiftythree inches is all you need, one quarter inch wall thickness will do just fine. After that you may wish to fabricate a box for your new fuel cell and chuck the old gas tank.
From there, rip the dash out along with the wiring harness. I have been fortunate enough to have access to a laser sheet metal burner. Purchase every gauge that AutoMeter makes with the intent of making your Pony's interior look like the dash of the Space Shuttle at night. You need to cut 16 gauge sheet metal with 5 inch, 2 and five eights, and two and one sixteenth holes respectively.
The fun begins when you try to figure where all of this is going to fit.
The bug has bitten me deep.
I not only want to see folks heads spin off, I wish to see their jaws drop also.
Have I won the lotto? Nope, I'm just single, trying my best to keep a manufacturing job from going to China. I work on my Pony when I can and have the extra $, which is not often. Am getting close to going on the road again.
Two buddies of mine got their Pinto's kicked out of a car show the other night. It seems as though the Camero and Mustang clone crowd didn't like the attention being drawn away from them.
I wish to join my buddies. ;)

Al
in Ct.

mcrouthamel

Hi,
I have been reading the suggestions on this post and agree w/ most of them.
However, a big valve head was available for this engine.
I have avilable if you are interested and in comes w/ a cam ( I believe it is a racer walsh stage 2) longer valves (.050) that are needed to get full lift from a higher lift cam. Has to do w/ valve train geometry and an intake that has been cleaned up some w/ Holley 350 2 barrel carb jetted for the cam and a  heddman header w/ 2 inch exhaust.
It came out of my crashed racer and I getting rid of all of my Pinto stuff.
I went to Fomula V, easier to get parts and was ready to race.
The stuff is located near Allentown Pa
If you have any interest, please feel free to contact me at:
mcrouthamel@netcarrier.com
or
215-679-3520

sagesunrise

Well, you fellers, I do appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience with me. I am soaking all of your suggestions in and I imagine when the time comes, that I will buy a different cam and an adjustable pulley. I don't have much of a shop other than wrenches and sockets, so I most likely will take my head to K&M and have them do the dirty work. I think I'd like to keep the stock intake manifold, but we'll see. Keep the ideas coming. I'm chewing on them.
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug

High_Horse

I stand with Pintony on this. Porting( with the proper equiptment and eyewear) is a rewarding experience. I compare it with reverse sculpting. I did the head on my 2.3 crusing wagon when I rebuilt it and my god the difference it made. Porting is not a scarry thing, just be carefull. It is not really bigger that matters but port matching and smoothing out the quick turns and obvious flow restrictive protrusions. And most importantly keep the ports as even as possible.
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

Pintony

I tried it my self once, (porting the head), and quickly ground into the water jacket so a machine shop is the only way to go unless you have a lot of heads to throw away.



Hey Ultimate Pinto,
What were you using to port your head?
A BACKHOE???????

I have done several port jobs and have never cut into a waterjacket.
I have one head, "The one that is on my current turbo project" That I have ported ... Rather HOGED out rather extensively and still no water-jacket.

What is your reason for not liking the BIG valve 2.0????

From Pintony

UltimatePinto

Hi Tiffany,
These are modifications that I would pursue given the information that you provided.
There is a website,  www.carbsonly.com , that I have learned from my other passion, MOPAR slant six engines. I've never dealt with them but I would look into getting your carburetor reworked. The existing jets can be drilled to a slightly larger size. If you research and tell these folks what you are doing with your engine, I think, (judging from comments I've read in "slantsix.org"), I think that you will be pleased with the results.
Next, look to E-Bay for an Offenhauser dual plane two barrel intake manifold. They appear from time to time but don't let the bidding steal money from you. Is it better than the one you have? I would have to guess yes, considering the other modifications that you may thinking of. Unfortunately there is no getting around spending big $ on a car that the only return is the privilege of seeing people snap their heads off when they see you drive by.
I have one on my stock back up engine that I will sell if others in the group come up with a fair price, as I've seen other unacceptable offers on E-Bay. I love the two liter, although I doubt that I will build another Hi=Po one, but you never know.
OK, now lets talk about the cylinder head. For what you want, skip bigger valves. Have your machine shop do a custom angle on the ones you have. Pintony suggested turbulence in the intake side and I agree, so you may want not to do anything there as far as porting goes. I remember from somewhere locating the intake just a "scoooth" , about a sixteenth of an inch or what ever the wizard of oz suggests, below the ports on the head. This may be done by enlarging the existing holes on the intake manifold. This gives a mini barrier for the fuel mixture to over come on it's way to the chamber, which creates turbulence to the top of the chamber, which creates a one way path - down to the umbrella of the valve, a good thing.
The exhaust side lets the combustion gas exit the engine. From the valve to the tail pipe is of the most intrest. The book by Mr Vizard covers this quite well. I tried it my self once, (porting the head), and quickly ground into the water jacket so a machine shop is the only way to go unless you have a lot of heads to throw away. That's where Mr. Vizard comes in.
For your most bang for the buck my suggestion is to do no porting at all. It's too expensive for what your looking for. As already suggested, a cam timing wheel I think is your best bet, and I have one of these also. By the way, the placement of the muffler -  HOORAY - as I remember another book as this to the best placement.
NOW - The all important cam shaft. When it comes to this componet I suggest Esslinger, they have a kit, (from the last catalog I have, #305,) number 1217 which sells for the $400.00 range. The advertised specifications are :
Duration @ .050 236/246 - Intake/ Exhaust Lift - 437/463 - Advance Duration 272/282, Center Line 110. It includes the springs and their retainers plus the cam followers.
Well if your trying to make sense of all of this, I'm with you, but should you choose to raise these figures, go to the bank, or better yet ROB it! If you decide on this course, (assuming that you retain the stock pistons, or their oversize replacements), I think that the light at the end of the tunnel is realized.
You have already provided the MOST important information  -  you have headers and a free flow muffler. Your engine is basically an air pump. The less restrictions involving it's operations, the better. Unfortunately open headers is not an option.
Al
in Ct.

turbopinto72

You can do a lot of good usable power with a little $$ by getting a good cam and adjustable cam pulley. Even if you don't port the head or install large valves this cam/pulley combo will give you the biggest bang for the buck.There are a lot of cam manufactures but I will stick with an Esslinger cam. I recommend a 437/463 lift x 236/246 duration cam with a stock head. This will give you some nice low end torque and has decent lift for a good top end charge. The adjustable pulley will allow you to retard the cam for more top end speed or, advance the cam for more bottom end ( which is great if you are running a high rear end ratio or have tall tires).
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

UltimatePinto

Hi tiffany,
Was in the middle of a response when I fumbled the keyboard and wiped out everything. Will respond with specifics at another session. In my opinion, your current drivetrain is just fine.
Al
in Ct.

kris kincaid

Early Pinto transmissions are either a "71-WG" or a "72-WG".  They have in two versions, the AD made in Germany (Steel top cover) and the BC made in Britain (aluminum top cover)

I am not sure what dictates what type went into what year or behind what engine.
ganar dinero a espuertas

sagesunrise

Thanks Pintony
The Hummer, huh? I don't think I have ever heard that before. I appreciate your info.
Tif
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug

Pintony

Hello Sagesunrise,
The stock Pinto 4 speed is often refered to at the HUMMER transmission.
From Pintony

sagesunrise

So what do you call a stock '73 4 speed? T3? I am not familiar with the references to the transmissions. Hmmm, a T5 sounds like something I might consider some day. Right now, I just want to rebuild the engine. The transmission in the car now, although it has been invovled in a high energy collision, was purchased rebuilt in 1999. I want to get some life out of it before I swap it out. Once I get sick of the 4 cyl engines, I might bump it up to a V6. Then I will consider a T5, I guess. Not sure of the gear ratio in my rear. Thanks for your suggestions 79panel! Makes me think.
Tif
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug

wagonmaster

Hi Tiffany,
The "C4" is an automatic trans. The C4 designation actually came from the first two characters of the Ford part number for the transmission when it was introduced in 1964. One thing you may consider is dropping in a T-5 5spd manual tranny. In my book, the T-5 is a far superior trans to the original Pinto trans. It will handle more horsepower and there is a large supply of replacement parts when needed. With the overdrive fifth gear, you can go to lower gears such as 3.50, 3.78, or 4.11s, which will give you crisper acceleration on the bottom end while allowing you to drive highways without twisting the engine at a very high RPM. Good luck with your car!
Brien - wagonmaster
'85 LTD LX
'85 LTD Squire wagon

sagesunrise

Thanks again, Al.
I never really thought about my rear and tranny. May I ask your opinion on my current setup? I have the standard manual tranny (is it a C-4? and if so, what does C-4 mean?) and I have the Mustang II 8" rear. So, is that a good combo for starters? It seems that the car is happier on long hauls at freeway speed (which is fine with me) rather than cruising back country roads, but it performs well either way. Rear tires are 215X60x14 and front are 205x60x14 (had to get a lower profile cause they rubbed)

I do have a Headman Header and it runs to a glass pack positioned in the middle of the car, via 2" exhaust pipe and the tail pipe is a 3" chrome tip.

I think the setup is a good solid one and I haven't noticed any problems. I would like the car to have a little more power than it currently does, but she doesn't have to buck me off. I am going to stick with the stock 5200 Weber/Holley 2 barrel. What options do I have for the exhaust ports? If I change them, will my Headman still fit?
Thanks for all comments/suggestions.
Tiffany
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug

UltimatePinto

Hi Tiffany,
If this vehicle is to be your daily driver, you may want not to go all that crazy with the head. You may want to get in touch with Esslinger to see what they have for camshaft sets before you decide how much you want to get into porting. The sets are nice as everything,(cam, springs, valves, (maybe), bearings), matches.
As Pintony said, you will want to go with the exhaust side before considering the intake however both can be improved.
I would go with a header set that collected into 2 & 1/2" or better, of course you'll have to figure on what your going to put on the other side to feed it. Do you plan to install bigger valves?
I've got more money that I would care to admit just in my cylinder head, definitely more than brains in my own, but I think all will agree that the clyinder head is the key to the engines performance.
Gear ratios, (transmission and rear end), plus rear tire size are there to consider also.
The two liter is getting hard to get parts for, but is my favorite. Besides Esslinger and Walsh there are a couple of places in Florida that has Formula stuff for them and they ain't cheap. One is BAT, (British American Transfer ?), and I can't remember the other.
Let me know if you can't find Vizards book, I may be able to send copies of what you need if I can find it.
Good luck with your project, keep us posted.
Al
in Ct.

sagesunrise

Tony,
Well I wouldn't mind building this engine up a bit with possible racing in mind, but she'll still be my commuter. But if I do, it would only be stock racing, not at an oval track. I wouldn't mind seeing what she could pull compared to other 4 bangers. Bummer on the D ports. I was hoping that might be an option. Oh well. Thanks for your input!
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug