Mini Classifieds

1973 Pangra

Date: 01/06/2015 02:19 pm
Wanted 1973 Ford right fender
Date: 06/03/2017 08:50 pm
Parts Parts Parts
Date: 09/08/2018 03:13 pm
Radiator
Date: 05/27/2018 06:07 am
1979 Pinto Sedan Delivery

Date: 06/15/2019 03:30 pm
Looking for a 1977 Ford Pinto Runabout Hatchback
Date: 04/27/2018 10:28 pm
1978 bobcat 4speed shifter
Date: 11/02/2023 09:51 pm
80 pinto original

Date: 08/04/2019 10:45 am
Need right door for pinto or bobcat 1977 to 1980 station wagon
Date: 08/03/2018 09:19 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
  • Total Members: 7,896
  • Latest: tdok
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,576
  • Total Topics: 16,268
  • Online today: 620
  • Online ever: 2,670 (May 09, 2025, 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 376
  • Total: 376
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

cold start issues

Started by r4pinto, November 08, 2016, 07:58:59 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

C. M. Wolf

Quote from: r4pinto on November 08, 2016, 07:58:59 AM
Hey guys, got an issue

1980 Ford Pinto 2.3. Carb & engine from 1977 Pinto. Things were fine before, pump twice & fire up. Now I pump twice & she just cranks & cranks & cranks. I pump 2-3 times more & she will eventually start. Noticed it doesn't step up to a higher idle first thing either.

Once up to temp it fires right up & runs perfect.

I dropped the engine in from the 77 after cleaning & painting it & using the same carb that was from the 77.

The electric choke isn't hooked up but is there. Connection is for the 77 Pinto versus 80 wiring & need to swap choke coils.

Any suggestions as to what to adjust on the car?

Ok, I poured over my 77/2.3(way back when) for near 2 months trying to solve some minor issues, including the one you have/had. This is a Colonge, German engine & it tends to be very picky.
The vacuum sys has to be near perfect, the timing is only a point or so forgiving(running slightly advanced is better), when the owner's manual talks about oil viscities per temps they need to be taken seriously. I couldn't tell if the fuel pump was only weak or the lines run w/ too much resistance(I installed an Electric Fuel Pump back by the tank eventually & plated off the manual fuel pump port in the block). Vapor-lock seemed to be a problem prior to the Electric Fuel Pump. Also, the vacuum advance can be lightened some so the vac-pressures don't have to be as high, if you're running the std/manual distributor.
Cold starts just seem to be a bit of an issue on the lil'Ford 4 cyl engines(like the carb drains back to level after it sits for awhile, another thing installing an electric fuel pump solved- turning it on manually(wired w/a switch) allowed fuel pressures to build up a bit before actually cranking the engine over.

Cold starts can always be a bit of an issue if you live in an area where it snows/freezes, something a block-heater will always help, along w/ lower degree'ed coolant-temp regulator being a good idea. Turn off the interior heater/fan when you park as that can act as a 'second radiator' for the cooling sys & take longer to warm the engine on start-ups. Another thing that helps once you get the engine to start, run for 1 min & shut it off let it set for 2 mins- allowing the engine temp to spread into the cooling passages more evenly warming the whole engine faster.

IHTH

Michael

sedandelivery

My 1980 Bobcat, cold, pump the pedal once to set the choke, and turn the engine over and after a few cranks it starts. Starting it any other way the car will give lots of problems.

r4pinto

Nope the choke is not disconnected. The choke cool is not plugged in but that's all. I would love to install any type of fuel injection but it's all down to cost. Costs too much to do. If I could find an oem style throttle body that would fit and utilize the original or close to original design air cleaner I would do it but problem is cost and configuration. I haven't done a lot  of research to see what I can find    and don't want it to be something where the car is out of commission for an extended period of time. Need to be able to drive the car if something happens to my daily driver which has happened more often than not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

65ShelbyClone

It's probably not necessary to change the oil before winterizing unless it has a lot of use on it. Low temps are going to retard chemical reactions and the oil has acid neutralizers in it anyway. I'll make a concession for rare/valuable engines like your Boss 302 though.

Quote from: r4pinto on November 08, 2016, 08:34:58 AM
Yesterday got to the car after work and it took a bit to start. And it was about 60 so the choke may or may not have been utilized.

Isn't the choke disconnected?

The '77 carb I have has a choke mechanism with a cam that cracks the throttle slightly when cold, which makes it idle up. If the choke isn't working, then that isn't working. My carb also has an electric dashpot to raise the idle, but I think it was strictly for the A/C.

Quote from: r4pinto on November 08, 2016, 08:34:58 AMI know fuel injection lol. I'd love to find me a throttle body injection unit that would work on it but aftermarket units are as much as I paid for the car itself if I can even find one.

If you want OEM parts and running behavior, then retrofitting an EEC-IV system would be one option. There are also inexpensive aftermarket ECUs like MegaSquirt. MS installs tend to be a bit of a project though. MegaSquirt ECUs are not ruggedized like OEM systems, so keep that in mind if you absolutely need to rely on the car.

https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/install/chevrolet-gm/carb-to-efi/part1/

'72 Runabout - 2.3T, T5, MegaSquirt-II, 8", 5-lugs, big brakes.
'68 Mustang - Built roller 302, Toploader, 9", etc.

Reeves1

Just an FYI.....as I live where it gets cold.

I changed all engines (years ago) to full synthetic oil(s).

A gas engines now with Quaker State 10w-30. All start much easier when the temps drop.

All engines that go into storage for the winter get the oil changed first (regardless of how much used). Do not want acids causing damage to bearings over the winter.

Not that the above means much to you, as it is a choke issue.

74 PintoWagon

That's what it's all about..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

r4pinto

Oh the car is far from comfortable compared to the Impala. Louder, bouncier, not as well optioned, seats not as nice. But I still enjoy driving it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

74 PintoWagon

I can relate to that, we've rented a few cars for short trips because it was cheaper in the long run than using my truck, and every time after about a 100miles the wife commented how our 40yr old truck was more comfortable than the new stuff.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

r4pinto

I tell ya what though. The car is 36 years old and doesn't start as well, and brakes not as good as the 4 wheel disc brakes on the Impala but I really enjoy driving this car more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

r4pinto

Well I gotta buy some brake cleaner for the rear brake rebuild anyway so I will have it. Brand new shoes and wheel cylinders. Also turning the drums of able.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

74 PintoWagon

Yeah, cold sucks alright,lol, might spray it with Brake Kleen  to clean it up then lube it up.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

r4pinto

It may very well be a lube issue. It started hard this morning but after starting it idled up after a moment. Then after warming up I revved to drop the idle down. So I'm sure it's functioning right, just sticking. Annoying it takes so much to start when cold though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: r4pinto on November 08, 2016, 11:25:11 AM
I'll try to lube it up and see what happens. Hopefully that's all she needs to work right. Major pain to start the car when cold currently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
A little lube can do wonders for it, I've gotten carbs for next to nothing because they couldn't get the choke to work because of crud, clean it up and give a little WD and works like new..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

r4pinto

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on November 08, 2016, 11:05:43 AM
Sounds to me it's just sticking, it can happen suddenly.
I'll try to lube it up and see what happens. Hopefully that's all she needs to work right. Major pain to start the car when cold currently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

74 PintoWagon

Sounds to me it's just sticking, it can happen suddenly.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

r4pinto

Yeah I plan to hook up the electric but a little baffled as to what has happened to cause it to suddenly not fast idle and have issues starting after sitting. Yesterday got to the car after work and it took a bit to start. And it was about 60 so the choke may or may not have been utilized. Heck I dunno. I know fuel injection lol. I'd love to find me a throttle body injection unit that would work on it but aftermarket units are as much as I paid for the car itself if I can even find one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

74 PintoWagon

First thing to do is to make sure everything moves freely, any grime will cause it to stick and not perform right, I'd hook up the electric myself.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

r4pinto

Hey guys, got an issue

1980 Ford Pinto 2.3. Carb & engine from 1977 Pinto. Things were fine before, pump twice & fire up. Now I pump twice & she just cranks & cranks & cranks. I pump 2-3 times more & she will eventually start. Noticed it doesn't step up to a higher idle first thing either.

Once up to temp it fires right up & runs perfect.

I dropped the engine in from the 77 after cleaning & painting it & using the same carb that was from the 77.

The electric choke isn't hooked up but is there. Connection is for the 77 Pinto versus 80 wiring & need to swap choke coils.

Any suggestions as to what to adjust on the car?
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress