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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

2.3 Turbo nearly as heavy as a V8?? And other questions.

Started by Flygirl62, September 05, 2013, 10:47:41 PM

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don33

if you are looking for a light weight 2.3 you might consider the Ford 2.3 duratec engine, it's all aluminum and came in ford rangers and the focus....


Grumpy


This is the one I want. John Kaase's best Boss 429 head. Those intake ports almost swallow a tennis ball!





With these valve covers. But the tag should read "Sawed-Off Shotgun".


The main problem is cams, the best one(the 488)only has .497 valve lift and 224 degrees on 112 centers, not a performance grind, more a low end torque cam. Big blocks(which this is half of)like lots of lift and duration. The standard 4 barrel on the 488 was a 750cfm Quadrajet with vacuum secondaries. Stock it was rated at 190hp continuous at 4800rpm.


Grumpy 8)
79 Pinto Hatch, Yellow w/White Pony stripes, Pony wheels, 6650 miles

rbohm

Quote from: Grumpy on September 11, 2013, 11:00:02 PM
Oh, and the Mercruiser accepts 302 flywheels and clutches and bolts to a small block Chevy bellhousing. Altogether, with an aluminum head the Merc weights the same as the Rover, about 315 lbs. Now if I can find someone with half a set of Boss 429 heads I can build my Sawed Off Shotgun(TM) motor.


The weights I'm talking about are the complete engine block with flywheel and harmonic balancer. The engine dress(alternators, carbs, etc)are basically the same from one engine to another and add the same weight to both engines.








This is a Mercruiser with an A4 Boss Pro Stock head.

Grumpy 8)


hey grumpy, if you are still looking for boss 429 type heads, check this link out;

http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/cylinder-heads/make/ford/engine-family/ford-big-block-385-series?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=ford%20cylinder%20heads
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jeremysdad


Grumpy

If you are interested in the Mercruiser, here is a site that covers it pretty well...


http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=256713


Grumpy 8)
79 Pinto Hatch, Yellow w/White Pony stripes, Pony wheels, 6650 miles

Barn Owl

Quote from: Grumpy on September 11, 2013, 11:00:02 PM
Oh, and the Mercruiser accepts 302 flywheels and clutches and bolts to a small block Chevy bellhousing. Altogether, with an aluminum head the Merc weights the same as the Rover, about 315 lbs. Now if I can find someone with half a set of Boss 429 heads I can build my Sawed Off Shotgun(TM) motor.


The weights I'm talking about are the complete engine block with flywheel and harmonic balancer. The engine dress(alternators, carbs, etc)are basically the same from one engine to another and add the same weight to both engines.









This is a Mercruiser with an A4 Boss Pro Stock head.

Grumpy 8)


Hey Grumpy I am new here and I came across this interesting engine you posted about. Did you have a complete write up on the power plant or any more info. I am very intrigued. And I think it is just what I might be looking to build.
Mike

74 PintoWagon

Yeah I saw that too, could be with accessories?, did they ever come with aluminum head?.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

jeremysdad

This part confuses me:

'Ford 2.0 Pinto SOHC L4 320
Ford 2.0 Pinto 286'

Ummmmm...what? lol Maybe top is with A/C, bottom without? Having recently pulled my compressor out (weight savings ftw), I can see it being in the 30+ pound range.

74 PintoWagon

Quite a bit of variables..

Ford Engine weight chart
engine weight pounds comments

Ford Model A four 475
Ford 1600 Kent OHV 260
Ford 1600 CVH 282 (US Escort)
Ford 2.0 Pinto SOHC L4 320
Ford 2.0 Pinto 286
Ford 2.3 Pinto 328
Ford 2.3 Lima/Pinto L4 418 (also 2.0, 2.5)
Ford 2.3 Lima/Pinto L4 307
Ford 2.3 Lima/Pinto L4 450 (turbo)
Ford 2.3 L4 Turbo 380 Turbo T-Bird engine w/turbo, flywheel
Ford 2.3 Polimotor 152 plastic motor, experimental
Ford 2.3 Polimotor 168 plastic motor, experimental
Ford Germany Taunus V4 205 (and SAAB V4)
Ford/SAAB V4 230 1.5, 1.7L
Ford England Essex V4 327
Ford Zetec-SE 1.3 DOHC 202 1996 Fiesta
Ford Zetec 238

Ford Germany 2.0-2.8 V6 305
Ford Cologne 2.0-2.8 V6 380
Ford Capri/Pinto V6 365 2.6, 2.8L Cologne
Ford England Essex V6 379 (3 liter)
Ford England Essex V6 430
Ford England Essex V6 405
Ford 3.8 V6-90 351 (w/start, alt, less clutch)
Ford 3.8 V6-90 311 ("fully dressed")
Ford 3.8 V6-90 298 "complete"
Ford 3.8 V6 402
Ford Duratec 2.5/3.0 V6 360 ("fully dressed")
Ford CDW27 60 deg V6 365 "as delivered to assembly plant"
Ford/Mazda Mondeo V6 225 60 deg, all aluminum, 4v
Ford Taurus SHO 3.0/3.2 465 Taurus SHO V6
Ford 170-250 L6 385 (except Australian w/aluminum head)
Ford 4.2 V6 488 flexplate and front dress, no A/C compressor. Shipping wt w/skid
Ford 3.8L V6 376 1998 Mustang, dressed (dry)
Ford flathead V8 525 1932 model, integral b'hsg, iron heads
Ford flathead V8 569 ('53 239 CID)
Ford flathead V8 616 "complete with clutch and gearbox"
Ford Cosworth DFV 353 (racing engine, DOHC, 3.0L)
Ford 255 Windsor 468
Ford 289/302 V8 460 (late 5.0s are a bit lighter)
Ford 221-302W 460
Ford Indy 255 pushrod 360 all aluminum, 1963
Ford Indy 255 DOHC 400 1964, later known as Foyt Coyote V8
Ford 5.0 V8 450
Ford 5.0 V8 411 89 Mustang 5.0 GT (dry) inc: manifold, carb(?), headers and alternator. Not inc: starter, smog pump, power steering pump, AC compressor,flywheel
Ford BOSS 302 500
Ford 351 Cleveland 550 (includes BOSS and Australian 302-C)
Ford 351 Windsor 510
Ford 351 Windsor 525
Ford 351M-400 575
Ford Y block V8 625 (272-312 CID)
Ford FE big block 650 (332-428 CID)
Ford FE big block 670 ('59 352 CID)
Ford FE 625
Ford 427 SOHC 680
Ford 429/460 V8 640
Ford 429-460 720
Ford 460 V8 720
Ford BOSS 429 680 (iron block, aluminum heads)
Ford BOSS 429 635
Ford 4.6 SOHC 530 iron block, aluminum heads
Ford 4.6 SOHC 473
Ford 4.6 SOHC 600 (Mustang)
Ford 4.6 DOHC 464 "9 pounds lighter than SOHC"
Ford 4.6 DOHC 437 without accessories
Ford 4.6 DOHC 521 aluminum block and heads
Ford 4.6 DOHC 576 (Mustang)
Ford 4.6L (SOHC) 529 w/flywheel 1998 Mustang, dressed (dry)
Ford 4.6L (SOHC) 492 w/flexplate 1998 Mustang, dressed (dry)
Ford 4.6L (DOHC) 535 1998 Mustang, dressed (dry)
Ford Taurus SHO 3.2 V8 390 Taurus SHO V8, no accessories

Ford Triton V10 635 "dressed"
__________________

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Wittsend

In all this discussion there is no statement of what is attached to the engines when the weight was measured.  After I saw the numbers from "The Ranger Station" I pretty much concluded that there was error in the internet postings. It may be that we are comparing a completely outfitted 2.3 vs a small block Ford that might have had components missing (flywheel, fan, alternator etc.).

Also, from what I've read the small block being heavier seems to bare out in the descriptions I've read regarding how the V-8 Pinto's handle. It is true that the small block Ford is one of the lightest V-8's.  And, the 2.3 is likely one of the heavier inline 4's. But, I'm still incline from my investigations to still feel the 2.3 is still near 100 pounds lighter than the small block Ford. But, until we see each comparable equipped sitting on scales the debate will be simply "bench racing."

amxtra

  I noticed things like the large chunk of metal they used for the upper alternator bracket is heavy enough to be a deadly weapon.
Could this and other accessories be whats adding to the weight problem of the 2.3?
Trying to save a few pounds atm by making an aluminium one work. but the stock pinto one sits so low ( no power steering ) its nicer for clearance.

Grumpy

Oh, and the Mercruiser accepts 302 flywheels and clutches and bolts to a small block Chevy bellhousing. Altogether, with an aluminum head the Merc weights the same as the Rover, about 315 lbs. Now if I can find someone with half a set of Boss 429 heads I can build my Sawed Off Shotgun(TM) motor.


The weights I'm talking about are the complete engine block with flywheel and harmonic balancer. The engine dress(alternators, carbs, etc)are basically the same from one engine to another and add the same weight to both engines.








This is a Mercruiser with an A4 Boss Pro Stock head.

Grumpy 8)
79 Pinto Hatch, Yellow w/White Pony stripes, Pony wheels, 6650 miles

Wittsend

Well a few posts above I conceded that the 2.3 (Turbo) must in fact weight 450 pounds based on the "Team.Net" website.

However, I have done some investigating and found the following (below) at "The Ranger Station."  Some guy took the (2.3) parts and weighed them. There is a lot there, so I'll condense it (but the full parts list is further down).

1.  Short block (w/ pan, flywheel, water pump + dist)-212#
2.  Head (w/ manifolds but no cam and followers)-85#" (297# cumulative)
3.  Cam and roller followers----------5# (303# cumulative)
4.  Steel rocker cover-----------------2.7#  (306# cumulative)
5.  Turbo (Garrett T03)----------------25# (331# cumulative)

OK, so, maybe the throttle body, oil cooler and a few other things are missing.  But they sure don't add up to 129 pound to get to 450 pounds.  And note that this includes the flywheel too (which isn't light).   So, judging by these number the 2.3 is right about 100 pounds lighter than the 5.0.  That is also near what "Grumpy" stated. And, as I look back it is right in the middle of my 75-125 pound estimate.

Frankly though, I'd still like to see both engines equally equipped, sitting on a scale.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Engine and component weights, all are +/- a pound or so. (bathroom scale)

Bare 2.3 large journal crank-----33#

Bare 2.5 crank---------------------40#

Bare 2.3 turbo block (w/ caps)--105#

Set of 4 2.5 pistons and rods-----10#

Cam and roller followers----------5#

Manual tranny flywheel-----------18#

Auto tranny flexplate---------------3#

Short block (w/ pan, flywheel, water pump + dist)-212#

Head (w/ manifolds but no cam and followers)-85#

Bare head---------------------------54#

Steel rocker cover-----------------2.7#

Turbo (Garrett T03)----------------25#

2.5 piston w/ rings, wristpin and small rod end-1.56#

2.5 large rod end w/o bearing shells--------------.9375#

2.3 N/A piston w/ wristpin and small rod end---1.9375#

2.3 large rod end w/ bearing shells---------------1.1688#

2.3 N/A standard bore piston------------------------1.15#

2.3 N/A wrist pin--------------------------------------.32#

2.3 N/A rod-------------------------------------------1.40#

2.3 large journal bearing shells----------------------.09#/pr

Grumpy

Flygirl62


The 5.0(302 W) motor weights ~500 lbs stock(iron heads), 450 or so with aluminum heads. The 2.3 weights 325 lbs, stock, with turbo figure about 360 or so.
The Rover 4.0/4.6 weights 315, a nice little V8 if cared for(it's a 60s era Buick 215 all grown up). My current interest is the Mercruiser 3.7L 4 cylinder(224 cubic inches, stock), it is a boat motor that is basically half of a 460 Ford V8, it uses the heads, pistons rods, etc. out of that engine in an aluminum block and can be offset ground on the crank(using Chevy Big Block rods)to a 260 cubic inch 4 cylinder(250 hp/ 275 torque naturally aspirated, who knows how much with a turbo), did I mention that Boss 429 heads bolt right on?


Grumpy 8)
79 Pinto Hatch, Yellow w/White Pony stripes, Pony wheels, 6650 miles

Flygirl62

Quote from: OhSix9 on September 06, 2013, 12:45:59 AMAlso if your car currently happens to be a stick start looking for a t9 tranny out of a merkur, its basically the pinto hummer with overdrive tacked on so it will bolt to the original 2.0 4 speed bell and also neatly falls in the hole

Thank you for that tip. The car runs very well right now, probably the strongest "stock" more or less engine I've ever had in it. An extra cog in the gearbox would be very welcome.

And yes, it's a four speed. The bummer is, it's basically tached out at 75 or so mph; a fifth gear would make it a surprisingly good freeway car (except for all the wind noise, rattles, creaks, and lack of flow through ventilation, that is).

Flygirl62

That's what I saw, too, which kind of blows the weight issue out of the water.

Also, to be honest, seems like the 2.3 Turbo in any stock form is getting a bit long in the tooth. Seems like there are other significantly more sophisticated setups that are lighter and more efficient/powerful.

A small block Ford V8 remains, however, a small block V8.

In my case, the fantasy may be a hotter, normally aspirated 2.0. With maybe a T-9 backing it up? (thanks for the tip, below). Just reading the thread about the bellhousings and what fits, and what doesn't.

Like I said, it's a fantasy right now. But I like to have stuff in the pipeline so I know what I might want to do next.

Wittsend

Well, interesting enough, these numbers are from the http://www.team.net/sol/tech/engine.html site:

ENGINE                          WEIGHT
Ford 289/302 V8            460

Ford 2.3 Lima/Pinto L4    418    
Ford 2.3 Lima/Pinto L4    450    (turbo)

So, surprisingly it seems the answer to the question of the post is, "Yes," they do appear quite similar in weight.  Good thing I said "I'll guess."

Interesting from the 60's, the Chevy II 4 cylinder is listed as 350 pounds but the 4 cylinder used in the Pontiac Tempest (8 cylinder engine with a bank whacked off) tipped the scales at 470 pounds. I guess GM wasn't sharing parts as readily back then.

OhSix9

OK you have a 73 so getting a v8 in it takes a BIG shoe horn, the 2.3 didn't arrive till 74 so motor mounts and such all have to be changed to work as well.   the bottom end of a lima is built like a shick brithouse, yes it's really that heavy, especially after you hang a turbo and accessories on it, compared to the v8 it uses a comparable amount of iron, has a balance shaft, crank weight is pretty much a wash so the only real savings is one head and thats chewed up in turbo and cast exhaust manifold vs tube steel headers.

74 and up cars are commonly 2.3 powered so the pressurized version pretty much falls in the hole.  install a wiring harness and "adjust " the passenger inner fenderwell and its esentially job done. Yes some 70s and early 80's cars where blown, Draw through not blow.  Blow thru,,, well blows...Stupid hats or sealed boxes, collapsed floats and usually slobbering rich off the boost, the only real advantage to blow thru is you can intercool the turbo before the hat,   almost as dumb an idea as converting the vam to blow through on the efi versions to force more air through it. ( i could write another paragraph on why its a foolish solution but i digress...) draw thru generally runs better throughout the range but because the fuel is in the mix as its pressurized you can't intercool or the fuel drops out of suspension and pools, fuel pooling is common (especially when cold) in the early carb setups too where the carb tends to be low on the motor. the 20 different ways to skin the efi cat pretty much take the whole carb option out of consideration on any new build except for the stubborn or stupid.  there is a reason the last production carb rolled off the line in '86ish.

87 and 88 bird motors are the shizod, best efi processors and hardened seats but the ihi stinks. the t3 will make more power every time and if you want it to spool hard get one from an auto with a.48ar vs the .60 in a stick.  early turbos are not water cooled and none of them have a bov or recirc making compressor surge the main culprit when it comes to causing failure.   Turbos are not really the black magic they seem.  anyone competent and confident can do bearings and seals in one for about 40 bucks assuming the blades haven't contacted the housing.
I wouldn't worry about the spool speed, the pinto is light compared to the bird and a .60 will make more top end power,   plus again the car is light and if you go 5 speed 1st is steep it'll get up and move plenty fast either way. And if it's not spooling, downshift...

Now the other good option might be to drop in some forged slugs and turbo the current engine if you happen to have a 2.0.  there is an exhaust manifold for doing it, add megasquirt in either the maf or speed density flavour and get a local speed shop to put some injector bosses in a good 2.0 intake, pair it up to a 65mm tb and some 45-52 lb injectors  'n away you go.  If you really want to you can make it look very vintage ak miller-ish yet have all the goodness of injection.  also if your car currently happens to be a stick start looking for a t9 tranny out of a merkur, its basically the pinto hummer with overdrive tacked on so it will bolt to the original 2.0 4 speed bell and also neatly falls in the hole
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

Wittsend

Well, you asked a man who has "been there, done that" with a 1973 Wagon.  I wrote up a "So you want to build a Turbo Pinto" a while back. Here is the link http://www.fordpinto.com/general-pinto-talk/so-you-want-to-build-a-turbo-pinto-part-1/msg76893/#msg76893 .

There is a "Part 2" http://www.fordpinto.com/general-pinto-talk/so-you-want-to-build-a-turbo-pinto-part-2/msg76894/#msg76894

To your initial question; it does not seem accurate that the 2.3 would be nearly as heavy as a small block V-8.  You have the additional weight of the extra head, exhaust and (larger) intake manifolds. The extra pistons and rods.  You have the support structure in the block etc.  That said, the iron block and head of the 2.3 likely makes it one of the heavier 4 cylinders.  I'm sure there are weights available for both engine out there on the internet.  I'll just take a guess and say the 2.3 is 75 to 125 pounds lighter than the V-8.

Tom

Flygirl62

Is that really true?

I was just talking to someone about the 2.3 swap into my '73 Runabout. Runs great now, but thinking about the future. Kind of, what if?

I've always wanted a small block Ford under the hood, but lots of folks say it's too heavy, makes the car handle worse, etc. So, in the fantasy, maybe the 2.3 became a good alternative.

But, is it really that heavy? That doesn't seem to bode well, except for maybe it's an easier install(?)

I also understand that some of the early 2.3s were carb'd, with a blow through carb no less...? Were they crazy at Ford back then? I can't imagine even finding one of those carbs. That means the float bowls are pressurized, too? Otherwise, the fuel wouldn't flow correctly under boost.

I remember driving a new 80 Mustang Turbo 2.3, with I believe the carbureted 2.3. I wanted that car so bad! But, turns out it was okay fast, even then, but nothing special. Hopefully it's better in the Pinto.

Sounds like the '86 and '87 motors are the ones to go for, with the smaller IHI turbo that spools up faster, less max power but more responsive for the street.

Does that sound correct?