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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Yahoo article "10 cars that sank Detroit"

Started by popbumper, November 15, 2008, 10:51:08 PM

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OhSix9

At a car show a couple years ago a classic mustang owner said to me "That is stupid man, why would anybody restore a pinto."  I gestured to his car and replied, "Well I have one of those at home, When was the last time you saw one of these?"

Did anybody catch the pathetic American top gear that had the samuri, vega and pinto.  They had to firebomb the pinto to make it explode.  The other two performed true to their reputations without assistance.

OhSix'
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

Pinto5.0

Quote from: r4pinto on January 10, 2013, 08:03:03 PM
And yet I see Volts popping up all over.  Here's a good take.. We don't like our cars being judged so why judge other cars? I don't care what type it is there is always a chance it will cause a problem with the automakers if it doesn't sell. Pinto, Vega, Yugo, Crown Vic, Prius, Camry, Corvair.... Not one single car kills a manufacturer. The reputation & lack of sales is what does.

Normally I would be in complete agreement with you but the Volt is what happens when the government involves itself with private industry. The Volt is not a product of consumer demand, it was created because taxpayer dollars were given to GM so they could create the "PEOPLES CAR"....

BTW, Hitler was the last guy to give the people the "Peoples Car". Ford was smart enough to know there was no market for this type of car so they stayed away from it. When GM was dying the government threw billions of dollars at the unions to prop them up & continue the laundering of cash from the union to the democrat party. Instead of dealing with legacy costs & union demands that are the real reason GM is broke they used my tax money to save the UAW. Part of that deal was to shove the Volt down our throats whether we want it or not. Remember the ad campaign claiming the Volt was the future of the American auto industry? (SPITS ON FLOOR!) Yeah, we see the future all right, GM stock is half of what it was when my money was thrown away, the union is stilll writing the rules, those legacy costs are about to bite them in the rear & they are quietly lobbying for another bailout!

The Volt is an example of how NOT TO DO THINGS in America, a not really free country anymore, but instead is reminiscent of the former Soviet Union.....
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

r4pinto

And yet I see Volts popping up all over.  Here's a good take.. We don't like our cars being judged so why judge other cars? I don't care what type it is there is always a chance it will cause a problem with the automakers if it doesn't sell. Pinto, Vega, Yugo, Crown Vic, Prius, Camry, Corvair.... Not one single car kills a manufacturer. The reputation & lack of sales is what does.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

blupinto

One can never have too many Pintos!

Pinto5.0

The Pinto should be dropped from that old list since it made Ford millions of dollars during the run.

How about we replace it with the Volt! The real turkey outta Detroit. A car that costs $90,000 each to build, needs taxpayer subsidies to survive but still wont sell at $35,000 which is a loss of $55,000 per car. In 5 years this T-U-R-D has sold a whopping 3,000 units of which most were purchased by goverment agencies under orders from a dictator.

The worst part is they seem to catch fire randomly after any collision repairs are completed. The fact that it only travels 45 minutes on a full charge before the engine takes over & barely beats a well tuned Pinto in the mpg department coupled with the environmental impact of the battery disposal every 10 years puts this pig from Government Motors at number 1 on my list of CARS THAT SANK DETROIT!!
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

Orlinna

In automotive industry worldwide, sometimes the business is in success or in poor performance in a given operating year. It is evidenced by its net income or net loss in its financial statement. Here is a related news about the Canadian auto industry. It will receive a serious cash infusion, because of Prime Minister Stephen Harper's decision to extend the Automotive Innovation Fund by five years. Automotive News reports that Canada will commit $253.69 million in the nation's automotive market. In Ottawa and beyond, this is supposed to encourage extra private sector investment and promote a variety of manufacturing jobs across Canada. (bad credit auto)


beegle55

The only thing that sank Detroit was a lack of innovation and living for today strategy. In the auto market, you need to look ahead, as foreign carmakers did, sometimes as much as 10 years ahead. You also need change. The 'don't fix it if it ain't broke' mentality doesn't work well with the auto market... even if it is fine you have to find a way to make it better, and don't run the same exact thing for a decade, especially when you re-badge a car that doesn't have any other real changes (i.e- Chevy Cavalier/Pontiac Sunfire, Chevy Trailblazer/GMC Envoy) The real hogs of the U.S. Auto market is GM with their parallel brands that are exactly the same just re-badged and their wastes of money such as the Chevy SSR and the Hummer. Ford is staying a little bit ahead, and Chrysler has some good ideas but no money to make it happen. As far as the Pinto goes, it was better than the foreign cars and it was practical and it was innovative, yet Americans still want to criticize the success of the market. Ford just ruined it when they didn't do anything to address the minor, yes minor gas tank flaw and basically slapped American consumers in the face. The Pinto met bad timing because the Henry Ford that had control of the company was losing his mind and you could tell when he fired Lee Iacocca in 1978. Cars are my specialty, I could go on and on but I'll stop here...

    -beegle55
2005 Jeep GC 5.7 HEMI
1993 Ford Mustang
1991 Ford Mustang GT
1988 Ford Mustang
1980 Ford Pinto Cruising- Mint, Fully documented
1979 Ford Pinto Trunk- 2.3L 4 speed
1978 Ford Pinto HB- 302 drag car
1976 Ford Pinto Runabout- 40,000 mi, V6
1972 Ford Maverick Grabber (real)
1970 Ford Mustang 302

dga57

I agree with every word you said but, Becky, believe it or not, I actually met a dark blue Yugo on the road Monday afternoon.  I almost wrecked doing a double-take!  I guess one actually survived! :lol:

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

blupinto

Huh. When was the last time those yahoos who are forever blasting Pintos saw a Yugo-living or dead? How about an old-school Toyota Celica like my brothers had? Or a Datsun B210? Or a Pontiac Sunbird/Chevy Monza? As rare as they are, I still occasionally see a running Pinto. Crap my arse! :showback:

FlyerPinto, Pintoguy76, I am with you. I'll even hold down that fool who said what they said about poor people. Lucky I'm not Queen of the World... they'd know what poor was! >:(
One can never have too many Pintos!

pintoguy76

The author of that article must have been a sorry @$$ japanese b@stard. Japanese cars back then were total crap. There is absolutly nothing wrong with a pinto. Its been said that only about two dozen people have actually died in pintos because of the fuel tank/filler issue. And as far as reliability and longevity goes. Well lets put it this way. I have 3 pintos. They all run and drive. However, i bought all 3 of them nonrunning. The 76 needed a control module (it had the original one on it, it was  26 years old at the time). Then i got my  74 (after the 76 had a rear end collision, altho is was more in the passengers corner than straight in the rear but... hmm... guess what im still alive) and it needed a new shear pin in the drive gear at the bottom of the distributor. It was about 32 years old at that time. Then my 79 was given to me. It was about 12 years old when it busted a piston, then sat in a garage for 15 years before i got it. Who knows why it busted a piston but ive never seen that happen in a 2.3 before. The 2.3 was a great engine, thats why it was used up until 1999 or so. Aside from all this, yes i have had to do work on these cars from time to time but hell they are all 30 years old or older. And AFTER the wreck in my 76, i took it on a 1,000 mile roadtrip to the southern edge of texas almost to MEXICO. If it was such a horrible car, it would not have carring me, two friends of mine and a bunch of our crap 16 hours one way at 70 MPH two times in one week. This is the same car that I was driving when i was 17, you know how rough teens are on cars. That poor pinto has had the holy living sh!t revved out of it (seen 8k on the tach momentarily a few times), used to run 230 degrees frquently, been run low enough on oil to make the engine light come on around corners many many times, lost a ujoint at 100mph once, and who only knows what else ive done to that poor thing over the years. On my way home from south texas in that 76, I did run the transmission out of gear oil (did have to change the transmission after losing that ujoint, it cracked the case on the old one. The replacement trans leaks a little bit around the front). I stopped for the night in southern oklahoma because it had been a long day. Got in the next day and took off and the transmission would make horrible noise is any gear other than first. I feared I would not make the other 400 or so miles home. However I stopped and put in a quart of gear oil and drove it on home. Still driving it today. Amazing.

Man thats such a piece of junk huh? I really hate when people trash talk these things, you couldnt ask for a better car. I feel less nervous taking my pinto out on the open road than I do a newer vehicle, because atleast if it breaks down no matter what it is you can pretty much fix it on the side of the road for $20 and be on your way.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

FlyerPinto

I have to say that article was pretty biased. Keep in mind, I'm publishing a magazine about Pintos for a group of people who own Pintos, so I'm not very pleased with what they wrote. However, I saw an article online just last week about the fuel tank issue; it was posted about eighteen months ago and there were around a dozen comments after the article. One of the posts said something to the effect that "it was a shame those people had to die because they were poor and couldn't afford a better car.." I just about lost my mind. I'm a history professor, and I love my Pintos, but that comment just shows the lack of depth people have about issues where they read a headline and not the article beneath it and equate that with knowledge. Pintos were not expensive new cars, but they were new cars. No one bought a Pinto because they were poor people. Poor people don't buy new cars, they buy used cars. What they don't understand is the $2,000 price goal because today that isn't much money, certainly not for a new car. But in 1971 that was a decent amount of cash when the minimum wage was well under $3 an hour. I need to find that poster so I can beat them about the head and shoulders with a rubber hose packed with sand and closed off with tiny radiator clamps...
Apparently I took that comment personally!

The only thing that sank the American automotive industry was their own shortsightedness and greed. Just because you make 10-15k on a pickup or suv doesn't mean you can't build a quality high mileage car that people will buy and only make $500 on. Just because the industry is selling every car they can make doesn't mean the unions should beat management senseless and stage wildcat strikes over non issues. When the industry struggled management shouldn't have sought their revenge just because they could. Everyone involved was looking no further than the end of the nose in the middle of their face and what has happened was as predictable as the sunrise. I live just north of Dayton and 3,500 families at the truck assembly plant in Moraine got handed their walking papers in December; their kids are my students and they've seen it coming for a few years. Those high paying jobs are most likely gone forever. The government should let GM go bankrupt; they would void all their union contracts and start from scratch. And if they go under, they go under. That is how the market adjusts itself, just like the real estate market should be doing now. Of course government intervention is going to prevent that, and we will still be cruising on an artificial bubble just waiting for the pop or the slow fizzle.
1977 Bobcat HB
1977 Bobcat HB
1978 Pinto Cruising Wagon

So many projects, so little time...

popbumper

I love how they dig this stuff back up. As you can see, I posted on it as "first" seen on Yahoo in November of last year. Geeze, so the Pinto helped sink Detroit. I guess selling 2+ million cars AFTER the gas tank incident cars means that there were 2+ million idiots out there that bought one.

Rubbish.

The whole green effort, Prius, Hybrids, etc. is more rubbish than the Pinto ever was. Yes, I do not dismiss the terrible tragedy of the gas tank issue, BUT, like we have all seen, there are other cars that suffered the same fate, and the mismanagement and union practices that have occurred for years have had a far greater impact on the industry.

Ridiculous liberal advertising, again.

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

entropy

Quote from: Starliner on November 28, 2008, 10:21:35 AM
"Pinto up against higher-tech, better-built Toyota Corollas and Honda Civics,"   

This is not true.   In the early 70s Japanese cars had terrible quality and they were not engineered to withstand salt spray.
   Honda's would blow head gaskets.
   Toyota's did not want to start in cold weather.
   Toyota's always had frozen brake adjusters
   We all know how they rust!
They only sold on low price, not quality.

Now the Pinto did have the gas tank issue, however if you take that out of the equation it was a more reliable vehicle than Toyota and Honda in that timeframe.   The Pinto 2000 & 1600 was a solid drivetrain.   

Overtime Toyota & Honda did a good job of continuous improvement to bring them to the quality level that they are at today.   Somehow this perception is carried over to their older cars which is not true. 

I found the phrase "higher tech, better built Japanese cars" to be particularly telling in this article.  Early 70's Japanese cars, with the possible exception of the Datsun Z (which has it's own problems) were utter crap.  Crude engineering, unattractive styling, bodies which rusted so fast you'd think it was a time-lapse film, glacial acceleration, floppy handling...the list goes on.  The author of the article is clearly far more interested in perpetuating the "American cars are bad" myth...and it is a myth...than reporting anything resembling facts.  I will happily put my 2003 Dodge SRT-4 daily driver against anything that author owns for reliabilty and sheer driving enjoyment.  I've got a feeling the guy is a big Prius fan...
1972 Hoonabout
SBF swap
-308 cid
-CNC ported Brodix heads
-Edelbrock Super Victor intake
-QuickFuel 750 double pumper built by Siebert
-Single stage NOS Cheater system
8" rear 4.11 posi
G-Force 5 Speed
10 point rollcage


450-ish rwhp on motor.....something a bit more than that on the spray

77turbopinto

Quote from: 71HANTO on November 28, 2008, 11:42:56 AM
Starliner said: "Now the Pinto did have the gas tank issue, however if you take that out of the equation...."

This is a good post string to clarify the gas tank issue as told to me by someone close to the case. First, the Pinto did not have a death rate higher than most of the small cars of the day that were in the same weight class. Second, I worked at a job for a while with the daughter of one of the lead prosecuting attorneys involved in the case, the MAJOR ISSUE was NOT the tank it's self, but the FILLER NECK. The tank shield was more of a feel good fix than effective. In a rear end accident, two things generally had happen to cause the incineration of the occupants. First, when the car was hit in the rear with a drivers side bias, the crushing action of the accident separated or pulled out the filler neck AT THE TANK. Second, the unibody sheet metal and door frame would distort and become locked together if the impact was hard enough. Just add a spark source and...... :sleep:

In the news at the time, it was much more dramatic to talk about exploding gas tanks than separating filler necks....

71HANTO

x2

The gas tank in my Pinto(s) is made of a non-explosive material: STEEL.  The fact that the gas tank itself was never changed as part of the recall speaks volumes...

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

71HANTO

Starliner said: "Now the Pinto did have the gas tank issue, however if you take that out of the equation...."

This is a good post string to clarify the gas tank issue as told to me by someone close to the case. First, the Pinto did not have a death rate higher than most of the small cars of the day that were in the same weight class. Second, I worked at a job for a while with the daughter of one of the lead prosecuting attorneys involved in the case, the MAJOR ISSUE was NOT the tank it's self, but the FILLER NECK. The tank shield was more of a feel good fix than effective. In a rear end accident, two things generally had happen to cause the incineration of the occupants. First, when the car was hit in the rear with a drivers side bias, the crushing action of the accident separated or pulled out the filler neck AT THE TANK. Second, the unibody sheet metal and door frame would distort and become locked together if the impact was hard enough. Just add a spark source and...... :sleep:

In the news at the time, it was much more dramatic to talk about exploding gas tanks than separating filler necks....

71HANTO
"Life is a series of close ones...'til the last one"...cfpjr

77turbopinto

Datsun had a bad rep. as well, they even ditched the name.


Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

Norman Bagi

Amen Starliner,

They were not quality cars, they were lighter which made them much more dangerous in an accident, and to some extent this still holds true today in terms of longevity.  The japanese imports are lighter (due to lack of a steel industry in Japan) just the simple laws of physics will tell you less weight means less wear and tear over the same distance.  If you weigh 100 pounds (japanese import) and you put an extra 50 pounds on your back (american steel) it will require more horsepower and more wear and tear to go an equal distance.  Does that make the lighter one better?  If you want to just get somewhere, then yes, but some of us like to enjoy the ride.

Starliner

"Pinto up against higher-tech, better-built Toyota Corollas and Honda Civics,"   

This is not true.   In the early 70s Japanese cars had terrible quality and they were not engineered to withstand salt spray.
   Honda's would blow head gaskets.
   Toyota's did not want to start in cold weather.
   Toyota's always had frozen brake adjusters
   We all know how they rust!
They only sold on low price, not quality.

Now the Pinto did have the gas tank issue, however if you take that out of the equation it was a more reliable vehicle than Toyota and Honda in that timeframe.   The Pinto 2000 & 1600 was a solid drivetrain.   

Overtime Toyota & Honda did a good job of continuous improvement to bring them to the quality level that they are at today.   Somehow this perception is carried over to their older cars which is not true. 
1973 Pinto 1600 - Sold!  
1979 Pinto 2300 - Sold!
1984 Audi 5000 Avant - 60,000 original miles
1987 Audi 5000 S Quattro - The snowmobile
1973 Volvo 1800 ES wagon -  my project car
1976 Mustang II - Wifey's new toy

Srt

it wasn't any vehicle that put them in the hole that they find themselves in.  it was greed.

short term profits with that money spent for maximizing return in the 'current' marketplace instead of looking to the future. 

these companies have 'forecasting' personnel that are every bit as good at what they do as any that you will see in any other government or private sector accounting or actuarial field.

if the money had been spent in RESEARCH the hole that they are now in would be very shallow indeed.

GREED
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

71pintoracer

And how many of those rust-bucket piece of crap hondas and toyotas do you see on the road today??? And if you do see one, who cares? But drive your Pinto and pull into the gas station or 7-11 and watch people flock around it and ask if they can take a picture!!! Happens to me all the time, so this is what I think of Pinto's being on the list..... :showback:
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

dholvrsn

Of course, Studebakers were near perfect. But they were made in South Bend. And look what happened to them anywho....
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

r4pinto

Don't forget about Chevy & the pickup trucks from the 80's that had fire issues. With the gas tank outside the frame rail those were death traps but did they get slammed as much as the Pinto? I don't think so. When it comes down to it, there is no good car to own, as they all have their issues. 1998-2001 Corollas have issues with engines sludging up & needing replaced... Vegas, well they were just junk... Chrysler Corp. K cars... Good cars but made so cheap within a couple years they fell apart..

With that said there is no reason to have a list that slams particular cars, other than to keep drumming up the negativity towards the same cars they always have. When it comes to the Pinto they don't like it, and probably never will so they slam it.

Getting off the soapbox now. :laugh:
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

Norman Bagi

They praised the Toyota Corollas and Honda Civics but did they rear end them with a country squire station wagon going 45 miles an hour, like they did with the Ford Pinto.  I read an article once that told of the comparison for fatality rates among one million cars sold and most of you know the pinto stacked up as well as the vega and better than the gremlin.  However it also told that they compared mid size japanese imports because the sub compacts from japan had such high fatality ratings by comparisson. Now if shows like 60 minutes were so concerned about the American public, why didn't they post how dangerous the toyotas, Hondas and all other Japanese imports were, they just had to destroy the Pinto.  :mad:  :cheesy_n:  :showback:

popbumper

Yes, I >too< drive an Expedition (2002 model). It is paid for. It has hail damage. It gets lousy gas mileage. But did I mention? It's paid for. Thank GOD I don't have a car payment, especially after being laid off - ack!!!

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

phils toys

Gee out of those  10 cars i  or my  family  ownes and  drives about half of them Did anyone look at the pic of the cars and notice where the pinto photo cam from?
2006, 07,08 ,10 Carlisle 3rd stock pinto 4 years same place
2007 PCCA East Regional Best Wagon
2008 CAHS Prom Coolest Ride
2011,2014 pinto stampede

gordie

Yes, they forgot to mention the Corvair, Vega, Monza, Citation, Edsel and lots of others that they talked us into buying.  Of course now that gas went way up the big three suddenly has no cars that the public wants.  There are no American cars that get decent gas mileage and they estimate that it will take about five years to get 40 MPG cars to the market.  GM doesn't think that it can make it to the end of the year without running out of cash.  They will probably get some government money but they had better get some products in the dealerships that the public will buy!

Tercin

The Pinto probably put as many Ford employees kids through college as the Mustang. They sold

something like 3,000,000 didn't they. There are plenty of other cars that contributed more to Detroit's problems(see above) than the Pinto.

Tercin
The only Pinto I have
73 Sports Accent
Rust free California Car

75bobcatv6

don't forget the Expedition, Tahoe, Yukon or any other Large SUV they make.

Reed

1.  Hummer
2.  Escalade
3.  Navigator
4.  Excursion
5.  Suburban
6.  Explorer
Looking for:  Rear and side window louvers for a 71 sedan, 15 inch aluminum slotted mags and tires (Ansen sprint style), and an Offenhauser dual-port intake for a 2000cc motor.

75bobcatv6

By technicalities the Pinto and the Bobcat are "collector Items" to the right people.