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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Strange Noises/Vibrations

Started by blupinto, March 09, 2011, 08:17:58 PM

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dga57

You just can't beat a man at his own game!  I was confident the problem was u-joints from the moment that Jimmy said so.  Not bad for a cross-country diagnosis, my friend!

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

blupinto

Jimmy, you are right and you are right! ;D
One can never have too many Pintos!

71pintoracer

Pretty sure I diagnosed it as a u-joint..... ???
last week a buddy brought me his faithful old '84 Ranger that I put a Pinto engine in years ago, had the same concerns as yours.....sure enough, front & rear joints shot. He got new ones from Advance and I pulled the driveshaft and replaced both and charged him 40 bucks.
You really need to move to Va Becky!! Close to me!!  :lol:
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

dave1987

Well thats a relief! I do wish I lived closer to other members. It is really a bummer being the only involved pinto owner in the boise area.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

blupinto

LOL! Dwayne, you are right! The reason I took Ruby to the shop in the first place was I just couldn't figure out the problem. The noises I was hearing sounded like they were coming from the tranny, NOT the driveshaft. I hadn't gotten 90 degrees of movement when I followed Dave's directions, so while I suspected the U-joints were worn out, I didn't think that was the issue here. No, I only spent $184 and some change for parts and labor. Yeah that's expensive too, but I have peace of mind. Replacing U-joints isn't like removing a radiator or a gas tank. Those things are cut-and-dry. I have two big trips coming up... one in Buena Park (an hour away) and a MAJOR one to a certain all-Fords show in a little Pennsylvania town.

Green Meanie's clutch is needing to be replaced, so that's the $400 thing that was mentioned. Again, because I don't know what I'm doing (and there's no one here ((meaning at my house)) to help), I would rather have a professional take care of it.

Dave, if you were here I know between the two of us we could've knocked it out, as it seems you have a knack for fixing these cars. I would really learn something too... so I could do it on my own and maybe help someone else if they needed it.

Thank you all again for your help and support. Ruby simply was playing Hard To Get (the problem sorted out). She needed a Car Whisperer. ;D
One can never have too many Pintos!

dga57

Hmmm... I didn't read it that way at all, but then, what do I know? :-\   I think she is estimating $400 to repair her green wagon at the same shop after she returns home from Carlisle this summer.  Becky, PLEASE tell me I'm right about this! 

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

dave1987

I'm happy you got her fixed! Just not happy about the price you paid! :(

$400 for two u-joints? At a rough estimate of $20-25 a piece (shops even get discounts from their suppliers), and then labor...... :hypno: :hypno: :hypno:

You probably have fees for the u-joints, diagnosis, and labor on your invoice, I'm curious about how long it took for them to change them as well as the cost of their labor. Sounds spendy....
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

289Wagon

 
   Please tell me that I'm not reading your post correctly.

   They didn't charge you $400.00 to replace two u-joints !!!
Still living the dream...In a points & condenser world.

blupinto

Got the good JuJu, Dwayne! Thank you! ;D

Well, it turns out I had TWO bad U-joints... and that was all that was wrong with her. She shifts and runs like a champ again, sans the vibrations and noises!  The guy who runs the shop said the noise could (and ultimately did) transfer to the transmission itself. He also said the driveshaft was about ready to fall out! The shop took care of it and I'll be sending Green Meanie over there as soon as I snag an extra $400 (HA HA!). Obviously it'll be after Carlisle... unless the Car Fairy visits before then.lol
One can never have too many Pintos!

dga57

Quote from: blupinto on March 17, 2011, 07:13:56 PM
Ok I surrender! Ruby's going to the transmission shop tomorrow.

I appreciate all the input you all have given me. My misfortune is I don't seem to know what I'm seeing or clooking for in terms of looseness (the U-joints) or where the transmission mount is. They'll tell me sometime tomorrow, and who knows... maybe I'll even be able to afford to get it fixed too. They're a reputable place, and they'll even give me a public employee discount.  ;D  I'll let you all know what the diagnosis is sometime tomorrow.

Sending good Ju-Ju your way, Becky!!!

Dwayne :smile:
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

blupinto

Ok I surrender! Ruby's going to the transmission shop tomorrow.

I appreciate all the input you all have given me. My misfortune is I don't seem to know what I'm seeing or clooking for in terms of looseness (the U-joints) or where the transmission mount is. They'll tell me sometime tomorrow, and who knows... maybe I'll even be able to afford to get it fixed too. They're a reputable place, and they'll even give me a public employee discount.  ;D  I'll let you all know what the diagnosis is sometime tomorrow.
One can never have too many Pintos!

blupinto

Guys... I think the noise is coming from the transmission/engine area... not the driveshaft.

I wouldn't be too surprised if it were the clutch. As for the U-joint... if I can avoid it I want to not take the whole driveshaft out. Jimmy, I'll take you up on the step-by-step procedure. I don't have a clamp but I do have hammers and sockets (if you're talking ratcheting wrench sockets! lol) to do the job!

P.S. Jimmy, I have gotten your PMs and I replied to a coupler of them, but I'm beginning to think I can't reply to them via my mailbox. I can't open any PMs on the Pinto Site, so I've had to read them via my email box and reply through such. I'll try to retrieve them and resend them a different way.
One can never have too many Pintos!

dave1987

Jim is right, it shouldn't cost much if you take it to a drive line shop.

Back when my rear U-joint broke, my ex left the car on the side of the road and I had to ride my bicycle a couple miles to get to it, this was  before I had a license. I had to work under the car on the side of the road, without jacking it up. I didn't know how to change a U-joint at the time either, so I took the drive shaft out and brought it down the road about a half mile to a drive-line shop that replaced it with the one I purchased at O'Reilly's. They only charged me $10.00 to press the old one out and put a new one in, didn't take any longer than five minutes to do it!
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

71pintoracer

Quote from: blupinto on March 13, 2011, 12:13:33 PM
Jimmy, there is definitely movement between the cups going side-by-side. This is how ignorant I am: I thought cars only had one U-joint... and it's on the rear part of the driveshaft. Now begs the question: Is the car safe to drive, or do I need to get it replaced before driving it again? Is it an easy fix?
Becky, I agree w/ Dave, you don't want to chance the driveshaft falling out! Not a hard job if you have done a few thousand (like me!) but there are some tricks of the trade involved. Main thing is to make sure none of the needle bearings fall over into the cup when you put it together. It can be done w/ a hammer and socket (to drive the cups in place) but a vise works much better to press them in. If you get the joint and take the driveshaft to a shop I would think they would only charge a few bucks to do it. I would do it for someone for a twelve pack!! :D I mean really, it takes all of about 5-10 minuets!! If you have to do it yourself let me know and I will guide you through it step-by-step.
BTW, did you get my PM?
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

dave1987

I'm glaed I could help broaden you knowledge! :)

If I were in your case I would change out that u-joint asap. One of my ex girlfriends used to drive my 78 shortly after rebuilding the motor. My dad and I never changed the u-joints and the rear one broke on her while going 35 mph..

I would be weary about a front one even more so,. If it breaks your drive shaft will probably hit the ground and fnegative motion againnts it might flip the car!

=hey ar,t to expensive though. $16 if I remember correctly. I use a socket and hammer to drive out the cups from the shaft and yoke.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

blupinto

Dave, actually that's the best explanation on how the clutch works I've ever read! I am really clueless about the manual transmission and how it operates. I know you aren't supposed to ride or rest your foot on the clutch... but that's about all. The issue I was having was properly adjusting the clutch cable.


On the bright side, if Ruby hadn't been telling me something with her loud vibrations and other noises  I wouldn't have discovered the bolt missing from where the transmission meets the engine.  I'm just hoping this is a cheap and easy fix- I have a couple trips to make in the next 2-3 months!!! ;D
One can never have too many Pintos!

blupinto

Jimmy, there is definitely movement between the cups going side-by-side. This is how ignorant I am: I thought cars only had one U-joint... and it's on the rear part of the driveshaft. Now begs the question: Is the car safe to drive, or do I need to get it replaced before driving it again? Is it an easy fix?
One can never have too many Pintos!

71pintoracer

Just because of the clunk and vibration, I'm still going with a front u-joint. Becky, you won't get 90* of movement (unless it is ready to fall out!) You need to take a large screwdriver or pry bar and try to move it up & down and see if there is any movement, between the cups or side to side. Then rotate it 90* and check it again. Get the screwdriver between the joint and put some pressure on it in different areas.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

dave1987

Now this makes me think back to when I was considering buying a 72 runabout with a 4spd stick shift.

A friend was looking at the car with me and mentioned something about flywheel bolts. He said the Pintos were great cars and very reliable mechanically except for one issue, the flywheel bolts. He said they would back themselves out of the crankshaft if you didn't drown them with high strength thread locker (loctite). I never thought anything of that statement because I've never EVER had issues with flywheel bolts backing out!


While I personally find it unlikely, I'm wondering if it is possible that your flywheel may be loose.....You WERE having issues with the clutch, correct?


Here is another theory. I'm not saying you didn't anything wrong and I don't want to step on anyone's toes either, therefore this is only a THEORY!

Perhaps when you adjusted the clutch cable you adjusted it to tight....If this were the case, for example, it would be like pressing down on the clutch pedal half way through engaging/releasing the clutch, depending on how "over tight" the cable was adjusted.

Now, if this is the case, think of it as clutch slip.

When you shift into gear with the clutch in, you are setting up the transmission to run in, say, third gear. Now when you let the clutch pedal back out, you are allowing the flywheel and the clutch friction surface (which is very similar to a brake pad lining) to contact. Brake pad linings, when engaged with your brake rotor surface (your flywheel is the same as the contact surface of a brake rotor), slow the car down. That is because the friction of the brake lining against the metal of the rotor is extreme, eventually you come to a complete stop. Your clutch and flywheel contact are the same. When you push the clutch pedal in, it is like taking your foot off the brake pedal, but when you let the clutch pedal out, it's like slamming on the brakes. Both surfaces are making SO MUCH contact, that they move in unison. Thus the engine turns the transmission via the clutch friction surface!

Now, returning to the clutch slip idea. If the cable is adjusted to tightly, your clutch cannot engage completely and never makes complete contact with the flywheel. You may not notice vibrations at all speeds because the RPM of the motor vs. the load on the transmission, depending on the ratio of the gear you are in.

This cannot be directly compared to the brake comparison, though, because your wheel RPM is significantly lower than your engine RPM. Think about two spinning surfaces....One is spinning at 1900 revolutions per minute while the other is only spinning at 300 revolutions per minute. If your clutch cannot engage with the flywheel completely, those two will never mate properly and can "flutter" or "vibrate" for a lack of better terminology.



Maybe I'm just over thinking this situation, or maybe I am just blowing smoke. If so, SOMEONE PLEASE CORRECT ME!

If it's to technical, let me know, I will try to reword it.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

blupinto

This is a stick-shift car, so I don't know if that makes a difference. I thought I had it all figured out when I found that mounting bolt. I made sure all the bolts were good and tight after replacing the one that went AWOL. I'll try to look at the motor mounts tomorrow... although from the top they look ok.
One can never have too many Pintos!

tinkerman73

This may be a odd question to throw at the monkey wrench, but, do these have a small wieght on the plate? Got thinking of my old grandfathers dodge van. He blew a motor in it and ended up selling the thing cheap. It was a auto. The new buyer bought it to put a new motor in it and sell it. However, he replaced it with the wrong size motor. Long story short, it vibrated like heck! He sold it, but did not make squat on it! The new guy took it home, dropped the tranny and ground the wieght off of the plate, put it all together and viola, drove beautiful! Anyways, the point being, if there was supposed to be a balancer wieght and it came loose, could it do this? Again, probably just adding to the mess of maybe it could bes and probably isnt's as I am sure its something simple. Just someone has to hit the nail on the head. LOL. Next.....
Jody Michielsen

blupinto

Thank you 2.3stangii. No mud anywhere near the tires/wheels. I checked the tires but so far they look good. If it threw a weight, would it make that noise like you're driving on that ribbed strip on highways to keep drivers from faling asleep? THis whole thing is very strange. I did check the exhaust- it's firmly in place (my '73 wagon is another story) but tell me more about the flywheel...please.
One can never have too many Pintos!

2.3stangii

I'd check the wheels and make sure they're not loose, I had a wheel on a chevy cavalier that didn't quite fit over the center so it was bolted on tight but fit at a slight angle causing weird vibrations (every three seconds at 60 mph), also could have thrown a weight or have caked mud inside the rim causing it to be out of balance (That same cavalier was bad for trapping mud). Also check the exhaust and make sure its not rubbing the driveshaft or back tire. Lastly it could possibly be a loose flywheel, my Mustang had one that vibrated a little but it also sounded like a rod knocking at idle so that's probably not your problem.
78 Pinto wagon
74 Mustang II
78 Cobra II

blupinto

Ok here's what I did:

I added gear oil to the  differential housing because my handy Q-tip said the level was more than a quarter inch below the filer hole; I manhandled the driveshaft like Dave suggested (it moved, but nowhere near 90 degrees); I pushed the driveshaft forward and back- not much movement there to indicate a problem; THEN I peered in the area where the transmission is bolted onto the engine... what's this... a bolt!? One of the attaching bolts had loosened itself and fell between the engine and the starter, so I removed the starter to get the bolt, then refastened said bolt and put starter back on. I took her for a test drive... and the issues are still there.  >:(

What I failed to elaborate on is that when the vibration is going on, it's more like a noise than a vibration. When the car's coasting in neutral and I'm going about 25 or less mph the vibration noise stops, but in the 45-55 range it's loud, like it's road noise. The clump noise- now more like a thump or a manly tap- is still present and heard towards the front of the car towards the passenger side.
One can never have too many Pintos!

skunky56

I think Dave is correct, the trans mount. Because it has been acting up for a while the gear oil smell is from the rear trans seal. When the drive shaft is moving it can rip/tear the seal, also putting undue stress on the u-joints. Check the motor mounts at the same time they are more than likely also fatigued.
Good luck
77 Starsky/Hutch 2.3 Turbo A4OD Sunroof
78 Wagon V6 C3

blupinto

Tinkerman, you might be onto something... I have been smelling gear oil (you know that nauseating smell) for a little while now... but haven't noticed any puddles relating to the transmission or differential. I did check the tranny oil level (my finger was able to touch the oil) but not the differential.

Jimmy, when I was under Ruby trying to figure out the clutch cable debacle I got frustration boredom (where you can't quite crack the case so your eyes and imagination drift...) and I remember "playing" with the exhaust pipe. It felt pretty firm.

Thank you guys for your input. I got lots of investigating to do!!!

P.S. It does seem sometimes that putting a load on the engine (like tapping on the accelerator) makes that clump noise- as opposed to the clunk noise I associate with a bad U-joint.
One can never have too many Pintos!

71pintoracer

At first I was going to say u-jount, and it still may be the front joint, but how about the exhaust hitting something? U-joint would give you the clunk but most of the time they vibrate on acelleration, but the front joint can fool ya. PM sent  :)
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

tinkerman73

Some of your sound,vibration reminds me of a rear end that was running too low on gear oil in a old pick up I had. But ..... at large, it almost all sound too simular to what I noted in my van when I first got it and the tranny mount was broken and the rubber boot was missing on it. The most noticable on that was when I would throw it in reverse as it would get extremely worse with the addes stress and "reversed" load on it. That was a BBC350 with auto in it. It would vibrate and rattle when I put a load on the tranny in forward. But, would clunk and really vibrate and grunt and groan when I threw it in reverse and started backing up. So I would check the mounts first. Even the engine mounts. Then double check all fluids you can at that point! If after this it still happens, I wouldnt have any clue!
Jody Michielsen

dave1987

Like from the engine compartment area? It COULD be a broken motor mount, but I would think you would notice that in neutral due, and the vibration would be pretty bad, if so.

The transmission really has very little room in the tunnel to move around. with a broken transmission mount, the transmission will twist clockwise, with the tail shaft pointing towards the rear driver's side tire. With this is mind, the front right of the transmission's bell housing vibrates against the tunnel, as well as the tail shaft/drive-shaft.

Think of the physical location of things and how they tie together in relation to contact of the undercarriage. A bit technical and in depth, I know. :(
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

blupinto

Would it help if I mentioned that the "clump" noise sounded like it was in front of me and to the right? (as if I'm driving).
One can never have too many Pintos!