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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

The Electric Pinto

Started by electrabishi, October 14, 2006, 02:03:46 AM

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turbopinto72

Keep up the good work Mike ...........  ;D  ;D
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

electrabishi

Got National Coverage on this one  ;D

I told the guy to hold on. But with all the noise the electric car makes he probably didn't hear me, or wasn't listening.

http://stream1.opb.org/media/news/2009/08/0805CF_EVdragsters.mp3.m3u

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112006313

electrabishi

Maybe to keep the info consolidated in this thread I'll cross post this info here...

Don't yet know where to get hard copies but the Electric Crazyhorse Pinto is featured as the cover story in the June 2009 issue of Design News.  Online article is here:
http://www.designnews.com/article/277418-Drag_Racing_Goes_Electric.php
(note PCCA sticker prominently displayed on the last photo in the article :-) )

You can hit the author's blog here:
http://www.designnews.com/blog/Captain_Hybrid/15300-Even_For_Electric_Drag_Racers_It_s_All_About_The_Battery.php

Also a news clip we got caught in over the Memorial Day weekend racing at the track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0jyZLB6T7o

Mike


electrabishi

Well we've had the votes now for the whole month.  Just had to wait for October 1st to roll around, and now we're "Featured Car of the Month" on the front page of http://www.dragtimes.com.

Thanks all who popped us some votes.

We also posted an 1/8th mile NEDRA record in the PS/A3 class of 7.933 @ 85.23 mph
http://www.nedra.com/record_holders.html

We were going for the 12.151 second record in the 1/4 mile as our goal for the year, but the seasons over here and we came up shy at 12.47 seconds at 104.47 mph.

More to come for next year. Thanks for watching ;-)

Mike

electrabishi

Thanks Brad,
I'll display the sticker proudly.  Just wanted to give folks a season wrap up story that would make any Pinto owner proud.  This is cross posted from my NEDRA list:

________________________________________
From: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NEDRA@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 12:43 AM
To: NEDRA@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [NEDRA] Crazyhorse Pinto Just 32 Votes from #1 on Dragtimes.com

Hey John and all,
Thanks for being the one to put us over the top.  Just gotta hold the lead for a bit longer.  And what a pleasure it was to visit with John on his way through Anchorage.  He had those guys on the slope so hopped up on electrics some of them showed us at the track the next day with their family after being in purgatory on the North Slope of Alaska for several weeks ;-)

Just wanted to give a quick update from our weekend adventures and share a little story.  Since racing is over we packed up the RV and trailered the Pinto to Seward Alaska where the 6th Annual Eddy's Auto Show was happening.  Eddy saw the Electrabishi on the news a couple years ago and has been trying to get me down to his show since then.  2 years ago I didn't have a trailer.  Last year the Pinto was not quite done.  This year was a success.  Trailer, tow rig, fast electric dragster and we made it to the show.  There were probably near 100 cars there of all types.  It was a lose show with "anything that would run allowed".  You can see slide shows of past events, and at some point the pics form this show, at : http://www.eddysauto.com/indexa.html

The Corvette club was there and has been a staple participant of Eddy's show from the start.  So I'm hanging out watching the 20 or so Corvettes line up in their reserved corner of the RV lot.  Not long after a couple guys come trotting over from their crowd.  They're looking at the Pinto and the Channel 2 news clip happened to be playing on the Video loop on my laptop.  Well at the exact moment the guy looked over at the laptop they're playing my blurb about going to the "track in Palmer...racing the Mustangs and Corvettes" and immediately the guy looked over at me and yelled "You're the one!!!"  He kinda looked mad at first, then he said "you're the guy who spanked us at the track this summer"  I knew who it was then, although I had never met him.  Early on, maybe the 2nd day at the track I ripped a white Corvette that was only turning low to mid 13's.  The track announcer went wild, not about how cool or fast the electric Pinto was, but that this Corvette with a 383 Stroker had just lost to a Pinto.  Steve (the track announcer) kept on him the whole evening.  Everytime he staged up at the line he would say "and here's the white Corvette that lost to that Pinto...."  I thought it he was laying it on pretty hard but it was fun to listen to.  Anyway, the guy said he wasn't all that surprised he was beat by an electric because he figured it would put out a lot of torque.  He was more hurt that it was a Pinto, which was my reason #2 for picking the Pinto in the first place.  So I asked if he or his buddies wanted to borrow my shoe polish and put their ¼ mile times up on their windshield.  He said nope, can't do it..... I already sold it!  He couldn't stand all the work he had put into the car and to be beat by an electric Pinto....so he sold it for a more stock machine. 

So that made my weekend.  And to get home and see we were #1 at the polls on Drag Times;  it just finishes up a good summer season nicely.  Even though we didn't beat any White Zombie records (which wasn't all that realistic anyway), we do have 1/8 mile times that compete favorably to Dennis'  Smoke Screen.   And we'd love to get either him or Michael Kadie, or even the White Zombie, out to a ¼ mile strip some day. 

Anyway, is late even for Alaskans in the summer time so I better let EVeryone go.  Thanks again for sticking with the votes.  Don't cut lose yet.  We have to maintain until the end of the month.  I should get a big green pumpkin stem for the top of the Pinto if we are going to be the October (Halloween) Feature 

Mike
AMPED

turbopinto72

Mike, your sticker number is # 105.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

electrabishi

Thanks Brad,
Are you the Brad that does the PCCA stickers?  I ordered one yesterday.  Any chance I could get the number off of it before you mail it.  I have some paperwork I need to list the number on.

Also Thanks to all who have been pegging the votes each day on Dragtimes.com.  Its been a long trip.
We're just 100 votes from being in the top spot and may need a few extra to hang onto it once achieved.
I know we can do it with your help.  If we can't get 100 votes by Saturday the 6th of September I'm going to pack it up for the season.
(only because the races are over and Saturday is the last car show before the snow falls ;-)

http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html

Thanks again.

Mike

turbopinto72

Mike, great post !!! Keep up the good work  ;D
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

electrabishi

Well after a gorgeous day at the track Saturday we came out with mixed results.  Hank "Ponied" up for the King of the Street Brackets Saturday.  After spending all day getting the batteries warmed up.  Waiting through 4 other divisions of racing, a motorcycle accident, and two blown engines on the track we finally got our one shot to stay for the second race in a 7 car field.  We're still all set to go and waiting to do the qualifying round (had to prove 14.99 or better).  I was thinking we could do that on dead batteries ;-)  And then they tell us the King of the Street field runs 3 parade laps up and down the track for folks to see that they are street cars (license plates, lights, windshield wipers, brakes, you know ... all the required stuff for the street)  That was a surprise, and then they say they go right from the  parade into the staging lanes for the qualifier.   Uh oh, now I gotta prove we CAN do 14.99 on dead batteries.  Well not really dead,  1.5 miles of slooow  35-40mph parading burned about as much juice as a full blown burnout.  So we skipped the burnout for the qualifier and turned in a 13.01 qualifying run.  We were told we'd have 15 mintues to be staged back up.  Well we were back to the staging lanes in about 30 minutes and an hour later the rest of our field decided to join us.  Z28, Mustang 5.0, '65 Chevelle and a couple other blown street rigs.  11 total in all including us.  The top "fastest four" went on to the pro-bracket Heads up tree, the 7 that were left did dial in brackets.  We're up first on the Mustang 5.0 who is dialling 12.55.   Talk about a great match!  Hank was running .03 reactions all day.  But a 0.19 reaction and my ill fated advice to add in the reaction time for the  dial in lost him the race by .0061 seconds. Hank ran a 12.614 @ 102.5 to the Mustang's 12.676 @102.2.  Don't know what I was thinking having to account for the reaction time :-(  We shoulda dialed 12.55 to match the Mustang :-)  Although after we got eliminated I made two T/T runs and got it down to 12.4701 @104.47 which is 8 thou off my PB.  Hank still has the fastest trap speed between us of 104.95.  So thats pretty much how we finished up the season.

Now I alluded to a couple quick mods we working on.  One was the battery strap situation.  With the slotted straps we were losing significant contact area on the battery posts.  I added some Stabilant22A contact enhancer to all the terminal connections in hopes to drop the contact resistances a little.  Data  from the Zilla indicated we were only hitting 75% duty cycle in the parallel mode shortly before the end of a run. As luck would have it John Wayland made a quick stop in Anchorage after a trip to the North Slope.  We chatted over dinner and he gave us a tip to add some inductance to the motor loop in parallel mode.  So $120 for a 30 ft length of 2/0 THHN wrapped around a 4" pipe and mounted under the hood, and there was our "Wayland Flux Inductor".  We were told at the track that it was supposed to be a "Flux Capacitor"  but I told them I didn't want to wind up in 1886.  I'll get pics up soon enough.  Suffice to say neither mods helped a whole lot.  And it was an extra variable that made playing in the brackets hard (not that delaying a start and mis calculating the dial in didn't hurt us bad enough).  Preliminary look at the data though shows we did hit 85% duty cycle on the parallel mode, so there was some  improvement. So this will be something to look at over the winter.  We were running pretty hot on the batteries too, and on the last T/T run I got a pretty good wiff of that sulpher smell like a bettery had vented.  Good thing that we 1.) Have spare batteries and 2.) was the end of the season and have time to baby the pack back together.

All in all it was a good season.  No records set (except I have 1/8 mile times that compete favorably to Smoke Screen ;-) <Note to FordPinto.com readers: Smoke Screen is an S-10 that holds the 1/8 mile record in the PS/A3 NEDRA class we currently run the 1/4 mile in>  We have one more car show to attend in Seward this coming weekend and that will likely be the last outdoor appearance for a little while for the Crazyhorse.

I see we are just about to the top at Dragtimes.com so vote early and vote often.  We should be there in October :-D
http://www.dragtime s.com/Ford- Pinto-Timeslip- 15453.html

Mike

turbopinto72

Good luck !!! We all wish you well and we are looking forward to your videos.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

electrabishi

Hey all,

Its coming down to the end of our season.  We haven't had time to revamp our battery straps like we wanted to but I deployed a secret weapon on them and will report if we see any improvement.  You may have caught that we knocked a tenth off our time the last time at the track.  We're now down to 12.478 @ 104.1 mph.  Each time is getting a little better and we haven't even been doing any mods.  So being as this will be our last drag race for the season Hank is going to pony up (so to speak) for the King of the Street Series at the track on Saturday.  Yes Jim, he has the spurs ready and will be deploying them on the ponies this time.  I kinda think they've been loping so far  :cheesy_n:  So what we'll be racing are pure street cars with times of 14.99 or better to run.  We'll no doubt be getting a few delayed starts.  Since we can't switch drivers during the competition Hank will drive and I'll pit and take video.  I've been itching to get some good video of us tromping some street cars.  It seems most of the days we could make it to the track were Top Fuel and Top Dragster days  :(  But no worries.  All street cars on Saturday  :lol:  And video will follow.  Maybe even a better ET.   I'll be driving her around tomorrow for show and tell and may even run into some prominent folks  ;)  The governor's husband is interested and may make it to the track to watch as well.  So stay tuned we'll see how it goes.

Mike

Oh yeah, keep up the votes for us on http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html

We're currently #5 and knocking on the #4 door for Featured Car of the Month
http://www.dragtimes.com/

homewrecker

hello my name is sam howard  "homewrecker"  i owned a 70's model pinto bb/fc alcohol funny car   it had a 480 cu inch 5/8 stroker motor 392 hemi
had a1071 blower with enderlie birdcatcher injjectors i would run it the coco cola
calvacade of stars   in a 16 car show i would qualify between #9 & 16 
race with M/T  dale pulde many times, larry  goulds ford funny car  bill daily lone ranger f/c,   would add some small amount of nitro to get in the field  30 / 40 %
used to work for omar the tentmaker carruthers aa/fc  joplin ,mo  jungle jim liberman
chi town hustler aa/fc  terry ivey aa/fc joplin mo[ jim chickenhawk mcmurry  high planes drifter aa/fc  i would alway make a little money  lost all My pics of the car if i can find any i will post them

i have been trying to find my old car for years  would love to try to buy it back   want to give it to the grand kids


sam howard  homewrecker
howardsam@ hotmail.com
joplin mo]

electrabishi

....p.s. vote for us on Dragtimes each day until we make to the top :-)
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html

If you would ;-)

Mike

electrabishi

I got some u-toob video posted from our runs (amongst the FAST cars) at the track 17Aug08:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mutCzLHwXEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGcyGL_BEQI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzejR7J2IaE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8C3eEOhdZM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oXJWkpbIDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXgi4D-yF3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqQAfGEzNUU

I'm the even numbered runs, Hank is the odd numbered runs.
Don't go by the number on the window, we kept forgetting to change our number between races.  They kept announcing Hank as me and vice versa ;-)

Mike

electrabishi

The AutoblogGreen article was hacked from a story originally printed in the Anchorage Daily News, Valley Sports Edition on August 17th, 2008

http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Crazyhorse_Power_ADN_Article_2008_08_17.pdf

enjoy,
Mike

electrabishi

Well we did it.  We knocked a tenth off our times and haven't done any enhancements to the car yet.  We're down to 12.478 @104.1 mph.
Timeslip on http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html

I'm just now getting all the elctrical data that goes with the dyno plots in a place I can link to.  So here they are
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Crazyhorse_Pinto_DAQ4_06AUG08.pdf
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Crazyhorse_Pinto_HP_Torque_06AUG08.pdf
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Crazyhorse_Pinto_Dyno_Output_06AUG08.pdf

Note that several of the curves represent data that is multiplied by 10x so they show up at levels relative to the scale.  On those labled as x10 then just drop 1 zero from the number on the 'Y' axis.

Also a good story on AutoblogGreen
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/08/18/video-electric-pinto-only-explodes-off-the-starting-line/

I got some more video but I need to go through and edit some clips together so they'll post up on Youtube.

enjoy

Mike

turbopinto72

By the way, once again there have been posts deleted from this thread.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

electrabishi

Thanks for the kind words Doug.  It has been a real fun project to work on.  It seems to be an idea with a future (as well as a long past) who's time has about come.  Just think if Ford had made Pintos electric way back when, there might be more of them still driving around today  ;)

We're going back to the track on Sunday to beat on that 12 and a half second barrier.

Mike

douglasskemp

I personally love your car, and applaud the engineering it took to put it all together.  It IS the grass roots movements that bring about big change.  Wilhelm Maybach and Gottlieb Daimler were just a few in a long succession of inventors from the 1800s that brought about change.  We know that change today as the internal combustion engine.  They built those successes into what may now be one of the most widely recognized automotive names (ever hear of Daimler-Chysler, or Daimler-Benz?)  It is changes like these that keep my eyes on alternative propulsion companies like Tesla ( http://www.teslamotors.com/ ) Utah Biodiesel ( http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/index.php ) and the like.  I even toyed with the idea of getting a Mercedes I-5 or I-6 turbo out of an old land yacht, putting it into my fox Mustang, and running biodiesel, JUST to be weird and different.  First and foremost, we MUST obviate fear of the unknown.  Failure to do so will keep us forever locked in the same rut, possibly indefinitely. As 'hot-rodders', look at how many 'grass roots' successes have become commonplace in automotive vocabulary.  Vic Edelbrock is the first example (and probably the biggest) that comes to mind.  Anyway, Mike, I love it and keep up the great (and no doubt hard) work that you have been doing.  It is one thing to follow the masses, and quite another to forge up the path less traveled.
--Doug
The Pinto I had I gave to my brother. The car was originally my mom's, (78 red Pinto sedan with a 2.3 and a 4spd.) I am originally from Tucson, AZ but moved to Oxnard CA :D
I'm looking for a Pinto wagon with an automatic.

Bipper

Quote from: electrabishi on August 04, 2008, 02:14:46 AM
I happen to have chosen the Pinto as the donor.   I could have as easily chosen a Triumph, or a Lotus, or a Cobra Kit etc. and the results would be similar. 

Thanks for choosing a Pinto.

Even though I don't understand most of the electrical aspects of your car it is still
interesting to read about your innovations, trials and solutions with the electric Pinto.

Bob
71 Sedan, stock
72 Pangra
73 Runabout, 2L turbo propane

electrabishi

In theory the power band should be flat from zero until the back EMF on the motors reaches the voltage of the batteries.  You can see that happen on the top end as it tapers off around 4000 RPM.  Coincidentally enough 4000 RPM is 100mph, about where we are finishing the 1/4 mile.

It ramps up from zero RPM because he wouldn't let me do a standing start.  I had to roll it up easy to 20 mph before stabbing it.  He didn't want to break his machine.  It would probably have pegged 1500 ft-lb from a standstill.  His machine will only register 1200, so even if my tach sensor worked on the dyno I'd have lost some data above 1200 ft-lb.
Fun stuff.

Mike

turbopinto72

Mike, thanks for the update. Wow, that dyno chart is different. Looks like you make max power at about 1000 rpm ish..... ;D , Wish I could do that...........
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

electrabishi

Got Dyno results posted:
http://www.dragtimes.com/1978-Ford-Pinto-Dyno-Results-Graphs-15453.html

the raw plot from the Dyno is here:
http://www.halestechnical.com/Mike%20Volmans%20Dyno%20Chart.JPG

The machine couldn't read my tach output so I had to correlate the RPM data from my controller with the speed data from the Dyno to be able to calculate the Torque  which is equal to HP x 5252/RPM

Youtube video of a run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt0LSml0JTI

Some notes on Horsepower.  I fully expected to see 450 HP.  But some things conspired to keep it from happening.  Because there were plenty of other folks wanting on the dyno my time was limited so we had to short charge between runs.  We probably got a good 10 minutes on the charger.  We typically run it between 20-30 minutes at the track.  Also after only 3 runs on the dyno the batteries were just barely warming up.  We typically peak out on times when the batteries hit 120*F and that takes usually 4-5 runs.  But 300HP isn't too bad.  And 1260 ft-lbs of torque gets us 60ft times of 11 second cars.  I don't really know what the "peak" torque is because I couldn't do a standing start.  I had to do a slow roll up to 20 mph before stabbing it.  I predict now that from a standing start it might peak up near 1500 ft-lbs, and runs the risk of breaking the dyno.

Anyway, just another data point.

Keep voting for us each day.  We're #10 in the top contenders list for the month of September.
http://www.dragtimes.com/Ford-Pinto-Timeslip-15453.html

Enjoy
Mike

electrabishi

Quote from: turbopinto72 on August 04, 2008, 09:27:14 AM
Mike, Thanks for contribuiting to this site. We enjoy hearing about your car and want to hear about the future of this car. Please keep updating here or in another topic so we can enjoy your progress.  ;D

Thanks much.  Telling about it has been just as much fun as doing the project :lol:
I figure there are some pretty hardened Pinto fans that don't care what you do to a Pinto, as long as its cool.  I see some people panel their cars with disco ball mirrors, and chia pet grass, bottle caps and just about anything that will grow. Things that don't make the faster, more efficient or even pretty.  So hey, how bad could packing the back with batteries and going silently down the road really be ;-)

The crap I get from some folks would be the same crap I'd get if I had a 12 second Gremlin or Pacer.

Thanks again.
Mike

electrabishi

Quote from: bigbellybob on August 04, 2008, 09:29:36 AM
.....
when do you see electric cars becoming affordable?

Conversions will become affordable if enough people buy parts from the folks who have poured their lives into their hobby and built up the controllers, motors and battery management systems.  As of right now all of the (respectably performing) equipment is produced "ma and pa" style.  Get a big company in to mass produce components and conversions will get less expensive.  For that to happen there has to be demand, meaning there has to be enough people willing to pay what it takes now as an early adopter to prove the demand.  Thats what I'm doing.

This point would be moot if car companies would just start producing them.  GM lost interest in their EV1 program, no doubt due to persuasion from their political buddies in the oil industry.  They claim it will take so long just to come out with their Hybrid Volt but the fact is that they already have designs for way more efficient vehicles.   I wouldn't look to the big 3 to bring about any radical change.  Its going to take a small company that is still big enough to absorb all the cost of R&D into safety and crash testing and still be able to come to market with a product.  Even if they make it they have the big 3 sharks to fight off which is no small feat.

My bet is that the grass roots efforts will show people that it can be done and that more and more people will get fed up with the antics of oil and auto producers (and politicians) and just start doing it themselves.  There will be a point where the alternative will be cheaper.

But just like you, mine's not the fastest, but its fun to drive. Its also fun being in on something new.  If I was going to build up a dragster solely for racing, it may not have been a Pinto.  You're argument that $10K into a Pinto could make it a sub 12 second car,  would likely be the same for a Datsun, Mustang, RX7, or even a Bug etc etc.....

But anyway, back to topic....We're hoping to be up on the Dyno on wednesday  :lol:
However, I am noticing a loss in power when the batteries hit 1000 amps where they should go all the way to 1500A.  I'm hoping after letting it sit for a month we only have a little oxidation built up between some of the terminals.  I'm going to clean them all off tonight and hopefully be at peak performance for the Dyno.

Mike

turbopinto72

Mike, Thanks for contribuiting to this site. We enjoy hearing about your car and want to hear about the future of this car. Please keep updating here or in another topic so we can enjoy your progress.  ;D
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

electrabishi

No offense taken to any of these guys banterings.  If you want apples, to oranges to bananas you can talk trash all day long.  If you want to harsh on the Pinto, as Bill stated, I got an alky rail that'll kick your Pinto's a__.  If you want to harsh on the electrics then my friends 7 second electric bike will also kick your Pinto's a__, or my other friends 10 second electric RX7, or another friends 11 second Datsun 1200. If you got a Pinto thats as fast as those then you have my respect.  But its still a Pitno and the alky rail will stil kill them all. 

The whole point of this excercise is to show folks about some alternatives to transportation.  Granny Grocery Getter don't care if the car will do 12 second 1/4 miles.  She may not even care if it can get to 60 in 12 seconds.  But people in general won't take them serious if the possibility of performance is not there.  This project and the  reason I started this thread was to say "hey it can be done."  I happen to have chosen the Pinto as the donor.   I could have as easily chosen a Triumph, or a Lotus, or a Cobra Kit etc. and the results would be silmilar.  For my own reasons I chose the Pinto.  Its the only reason I joined this board.  I figured there were some pretty knowledgable people on the Pinto front here.  Get a few Pinto questions answered , tell a few electric car facts, before you know it there's little baby electric Pinto's running all over.  Well not really.  My point (which I think I lost by now) is that it doesn't offend me when people close their eyes to the future of things to come.  I'm just happy to be helping bring it on.

Mike 

turbopinto72

Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

77turbopinto

I thought this thread was about an electric powered Pinto, and what is/ was involved.

Any 3rd party comparison to a NON-ELECTRIC powered Pinto would be copairing apples and oranges (pointless). I think that anyone that has the need to post a negative (all puns intended) comment on the performance of said electric powered Pinto should go build THEIR OWN electric powered Pinto and see how they do with it.

I built my Bobcat to auto-X it. No, it's not, nor will it ever be a great car for that no matter what I do to it, or how much money I spend. I probably built it for a similar reason this electric Pinto was built. If anyone does not understand this type of concept, maybe they never will.... (a top-fuel car can do the 1/4 mile MUCH faster than the gas powered Pintos mentioned here, so why even bother with a Pinto at all?)

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

FCANON

he didn't ask for your dads time slip

FrankBoss
www.pintoworks.com   www.tirestopinc.com
www.stophumpingmytown.com
www.FrankBoss.com