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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

brake issues

Started by dholvrsn, October 28, 2008, 04:40:18 PM

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dick1172762

I use this same method, plus I rap on the calipers with a plastic hammer to dislodge the air bubbles. Works great. And its a one man job.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Srt

Quote from: 71pintoracer on October 30, 2008, 12:52:18 PM
When I put the V8 in my car I had to change all of the front brake lines and maybe reroute part of the rear or something, anyway, I filled the M/C, opened all of the bleeders and put a hose on them and into an empty plastic bottle and let it gravity bleed for a few hours. Thats all the bleeding I had to do.
After you bleed the system, if you still have to pump the pedal you are picking up air, and the only place that can happen is at the M/C.


my sentiments exactly....been there, done that
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

dholvrsn

Got one ordered. Also waiting for new rear springs from Jaycee Gypmee.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

r4pinto

If the cable is that gummy it's prolly time to replace it. They are available at the parts stores, atleast to be ordered.. They are also a reasonable price so I say if you are going to remove it just replace it, especially since it is almost or atleast thirty years old.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

dholvrsn

FWIW, I had the rear brakes apart yesterday. The emergency brake cable is gummy and sticky and was stuck halfway pulled out. I am teetering on buying a new cable unless there is a good way to lube these. I miss being able to get that spray can of chain and cable lube down at my Grandpa's Allis Chalmers dealership.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

75bobcatv6

Quote from: Starliner on November 02, 2008, 09:20:37 PM
dholvrsn,

Whenever I buy an old car, I find it is better to go through all the brakes.   It eliminates any guess work. 
Not only is it safe, but you don't need to do any more brake work except change the linings at a future date.   
Also it is a good feeling to have a firm pedal with balanced braking.   
==============

*  Change all the wheel cylinders (& calipers if disc brakes).  Buy new wheel cylinders and rebuilt calipers.  They are cheap. 
*  Change every flex line.   One on each front wheel (left & right) and the one in the rear that goes from the frame to the axle.  These old flex lines can get weak and expand when pressurized.  Hence, a spongy pedal.
*  Adjust the new brakes so that the shoes create some drag on the brake drums. 
*  Install a new master cylinder as follows.   
Buy some short brake lines (and adapters if necessary to fit the master cylinder)  Cut the brakes lines about 2 inches long and pound the end closed.   Screw them into the master cylinder.  Now mount the master cylinder in a vise.  Do not over-squeeze in the vise.   Fill the master cylinder with brake fluid.  Take a large philips screw driver and push on the master cylinder plunger.  Push VERY SLOW and do not "bottom" it out.   Then slowly release.   You should see some air bubbles.   Wait 5 seconds and repeat.  Do this many times until you do not see any more air bubbles.  Next, crack the front brake line slightly loose.   Repeat the pushing method with the brake line slightly loose.   It should start to leak and squirt around the threads.  Repeat until you do not get any air.  (you can hear it)   Tighten the brake line.   Now do the same to the other brake line.
Tighten both brake lines.  Next push on the philips screw driver while slowly loosening one of the brake lines.  As it leaks out retighten the brake line before it bottoms out.   Pump once to refill.    Repeat with the other brake line.   Now pump the philips screw driver one more time and wait 10 seconds.   Now push the philips screwdriver, you should have a FIRM master cylinder in the vise. 
Now install the master cylinder into the car with the short brake lines still in place.  Check the brake pedal, it should be FIRM.  That tells you the master cylinder is good.    Next, remove the short blocked-off brakes lines and install the vehicle brake lines.   
*  Bleed the brakes - sounds like you are doing this correctly.   Make sure you do not run out of fluid.
*  If the brakes feel good, drive a short distance making many easy stops.   This is to seat the brake shoes a little.  Return to your start point and let the brakes cool.  Remember I said to have the brakes slightly dragging when you adjusted them, well they should now be free.   
===========


+1 for you dang nice Info. *copied/pasted*

71pintoracer

You may have hit on something when you said "check the rear brakes."
I recently worked on a bus with a mushy pedal, another shop installed two new M/C's and you still had to pump the brakes. What I found was the rear adjusters were frozen and the brakes were way out of adjustment. What happens is the first stroke of the pedal is not enough to push the wheel cylinders out enough to engage the rear brakes and the pedal goes to the floor. Bleeding helps a little (for a while) but does not fix it. I guess this problem came on slowly and they didn't pay much attention to it untill the pedal went down far enough to turn on the red brake light.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

r4pinto

BTW, I just thought of something.. Is the fluid light amber to clear coming out of the bleeder screws at each wheel or is it medium to dark brown? That can be an indication of old fluid.

Brake fluid is hydroscopic (retains a certain amount of moisture).. Where you have moisture present you can have air present as well.

That is why they say to flush the brake system once every year, two at the most. That is especially good to do on a car that sits since the varying temperature can cause condensation in the brake system.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

r4pinto

Excellent idea!!!! I should have pointed that out since I myself always do that. Give the guy a cookie.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

Starliner

dholvrsn,

Whenever I buy an old car, I find it is better to go through all the brakes.   It eliminates any guess work. 
Not only is it safe, but you don't need to do any more brake work except change the linings at a future date.   
Also it is a good feeling to have a firm pedal with balanced braking.   
==============

*  Change all the wheel cylinders (& calipers if disc brakes).  Buy new wheel cylinders and rebuilt calipers.  They are cheap. 
*  Change every flex line.   One on each front wheel (left & right) and the one in the rear that goes from the frame to the axle.  These old flex lines can get weak and expand when pressurized.  Hence, a spongy pedal.
*  Adjust the new brakes so that the shoes create some drag on the brake drums. 
*  Install a new master cylinder as follows.   
Buy some short brake lines (and adapters if necessary to fit the master cylinder)  Cut the brakes lines about 2 inches long and pound the end closed.   Screw them into the master cylinder.  Now mount the master cylinder in a vise.  Do not over-squeeze in the vise.   Fill the master cylinder with brake fluid.  Take a large philips screw driver and push on the master cylinder plunger.  Push VERY SLOW and do not "bottom" it out.   Then slowly release.   You should see some air bubbles.   Wait 5 seconds and repeat.  Do this many times until you do not see any more air bubbles.  Next, crack the front brake line slightly loose.   Repeat the pushing method with the brake line slightly loose.   It should start to leak and squirt around the threads.  Repeat until you do not get any air.  (you can hear it)   Tighten the brake line.   Now do the same to the other brake line.
Tighten both brake lines.  Next push on the philips screw driver while slowly loosening one of the brake lines.  As it leaks out retighten the brake line before it bottoms out.   Pump once to refill.    Repeat with the other brake line.   Now pump the philips screw driver one more time and wait 10 seconds.   Now push the philips screwdriver, you should have a FIRM master cylinder in the vise. 
Now install the master cylinder into the car with the short brake lines still in place.  Check the brake pedal, it should be FIRM.  That tells you the master cylinder is good.    Next, remove the short blocked-off brakes lines and install the vehicle brake lines.   
*  Bleed the brakes - sounds like you are doing this correctly.   Make sure you do not run out of fluid.
*  If the brakes feel good, drive a short distance making many easy stops.   This is to seat the brake shoes a little.  Return to your start point and let the brakes cool.  Remember I said to have the brakes slightly dragging when you adjusted them, well they should now be free.   
===========
1973 Pinto 1600 - Sold!  
1979 Pinto 2300 - Sold!
1984 Audi 5000 Avant - 60,000 original miles
1987 Audi 5000 S Quattro - The snowmobile
1973 Volvo 1800 ES wagon -  my project car
1976 Mustang II - Wifey's new toy

r4pinto

It's not that the dual master cylinders are delicate that they easily rupture.. It's pretty much that in order to rebuild the master cylinder it's generally honed out which then causes the seals not to seal from time to time. When that happens the seals naturally leak causing basically the same issue you had before. That's why most people just buy new verses remanufactured parts like that.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

dholvrsn

I've been bleeding them in that order all along.

This almost makes me miss the '70s and '80s when a 30 year old vehicle was from the '40s or '50s and it had a really simple single master cylinder under the floor that you just bled and it worked. Or even slowly finessed the pedal to work the bubbles out without bleeding!

So are these dual master cylinders so delicate and fragile that they rupture a seal and they start leaking air if they aren't properly bench bled before installation?

Anyway, I'm going to check the rear brakes. I could never get the emergency brake to adjust and the one cable has no spring to it and I'm going to see if something is off a peg or a notch to cause this problem. Then I'm going to bleed the original cylinder (which wasn't bench bled in the first place) and try it again to satisfy my curiosity. If that doesn't work, I'm breaking down and buying a new master cylinder. And if that doesn't work, I'm having a professional mechanic come out and look at it.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

dave1987

When you are bleeding your brakes, are you starting from the wheel farthest from the master cylinder? You should start at the wheels farthest from the cylinder and move closer.

On a Pinto, this would be...

Rear Passenger
Rear Driver
Front Passenger
Front Driver

This is what I did for my brakes after I rebuilt them and before I started driving the car, and I haven't had a problem since.
1978 Ford Pinto Sedan - Family owned since new

Remembering Jeff Fitcher with every drive in my 78 Sedan.

I am a Pinto Surgeon. Fixing problems and giving Pintos a chance to live again is more than a hobby, it's a passion!

71pintoracer

When I put the V8 in my car I had to change all of the front brake lines and maybe reroute part of the rear or something, anyway, I filled the M/C, opened all of the bleeders and put a hose on them and into an empty plastic bottle and let it gravity bleed for a few hours. Thats all the bleeding I had to do.
After you bleed the system, if you still have to pump the pedal you are picking up air, and the only place that can happen is at the M/C.
If you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

Mike Modified

It seems to me that, in general, power brakes use a much longer actuating rod than non-power brakes in the same model.

Perhaps someone could check the parts catalogs to see if this is true with the Pinto?

Mike

r4pinto

Tigger couldn't be more right. You have to figure the master cylinder has the most air trapped inside of it when it is put together. All are like that and like Tigger I have never heard of a master cylinder taking 45 minutes to bench bleed. If it is taking you that long there has to be a problem. Besides, what's it gonna hurt to take it back in exchange for a different one? The time you take is worth more than the trouble you are having bleeding the brakes.

As for the way you are bleeding the brakes I bleed mine the same exact way and I have zero problems bleeding the brakes. As long as the tube connected to the bleeder screw is submerged in brake fluid you should not have any problems.  I've done many brake jobs this way and the only one I had an issue with was the Pinto. What solved it? Replacing the master cylinder.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

TIGGER

I think there has got to be something wrong with your master cylinder.  It has to be letting air in somewhere as it should not take 45 min to bleed ???  You may want to exchange it for a different or new unit.  Good luck man, I was in your shoes about 15 years ago...
79 4cyl Wagon
73 Turbo HB
78 Cruising Wagon (sold 8/6/11)

75bobcatv6

Get a pump bleeder from Autozone or something and start at the farthest point from the Master Cyl, and work your way around if you have to i would Overturn a bottle of dot3 into the reservoir and Just start sucking it out till its comes clean and you dont have Bubbles, I had to do that to a VW beetle a few years back and it took a long time to get all the air out of the lines. I wish you luck though. btw i think the part at Autozone is like 15 Dollars and it pays for it self 

popbumper

Oh, man, I wish you the best, this is killing me, too. I have been fighting getting my brake system working also, new hoses, proportioning valve, master cylinder, rear cylinders, hardware, and can't get a solid pedal. I >really< don't want to take it to a garage and spend the bux, because it's not even driveable and I would have to pay for a tow, etc.

I bought a NEW master cylinder Monday, the Cardone rebuilt is lousy, so I am going new. I even bought a clamp and bench bleed kit so I could follow the step by step instructions in the box. I just hope I can get the system working as well. I never thought it would be so ornery.

Chris
Restoring a 1976 MPG wagon - purchased 6/08

dholvrsn

I borrowed a bleeding kit and took master cylinder out, clamped it in the vice, and spent 45 minutes massaging every last air bubble out. And that thing was so full of bubbles that it took 45 minutes. Also adjusted the power booster rod. I put everything back together and bled the wheels yet again and now I'm down to only three or four pumps to get the thing stopped instead of seven or eight. Still not something I'd want to drive around town. I am going try a real manual bleeding kit next time, instead of dangling a hose into a fruit jar, unless I get some better advice.

This is getting so frustrating.  >:(
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
-----
'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

r4pinto

I concur with Tigger. He is right about bad master cylinders. I had a 93 Mercury Topaz that I could not get a solid peda on so I replaced the master cylinder. I went through three from the parts store before I gave up & got one off an 87 Tempo. The car stopped fine afterwards.

Oh, I shoulda mentioned that your symptoms described my Topaz brake issues to the letter. I say exchange it & see what happens if re-bench bleeding does not work.
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

dholvrsn

Will get a bench bleed kit tomorrow morning and try it. Will also check the length of the push rod from the booster.

BTW, since the last time that the brakes have worked, I have swapped in a power booster and proportioner, and replaced the front pads and disks.
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
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'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser

TIGGER

Does your car have power brakes?  What is the condition of the rest of your brake system?  Did you bench bleed the MC before you installed it?  You can bleed the system all you want  but if there is air in the MC you will have a mushy pedal.  You also could have a bad MC?  In the early 90's I went thru 6 mastercylinders in a two month period as all the rebuilds I was getting were junk and leaking.
79 4cyl Wagon
73 Turbo HB
78 Cruising Wagon (sold 8/6/11)

dholvrsn

I got a freshly turbo'ed Pinto that I can't drive more than around the building because the brakes won't stay fixed. I can bleed and bleed and bleed them and they turn back to spongey crap a moment later. I replaced the master cylinder and more of the same crap. Help! This is driving me up the wall!
'80 MPG Pony, '80-'92
'79 porthole wagon, '06-on
'80 trunk model. '17-on
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'98 Dodge Ram 1500
'95 Buick Riviera
'63 Studebaker Champ
'57 Studebaker Silver Hawk
'51 Studebaker Commander Starlight
'47 Studebaker Champion
'41 Studebaker Commander Land Cruiser