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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

T5 install expert help wanted

Started by rkk, December 02, 2007, 02:06:34 PM

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77turbopinto

Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

Pintony

Quote from: Pangra74 on December 08, 2007, 07:56:21 PM
Go to www.joe-escobar.com/pinto.html Scroll to the bottom. Instead of cutting the crossmember, I just made a new bracket above the original cable hole in the bellcrank bell. has been working fine.

Joe
Hey Joe I give you a 1-UP for the link!!!
I knew someone had done a simple fix for the cable problem.
I just could not remember who it was.\ From Pintony

Pangra74

Go to www.joe-escobar.com/pinto.html Scroll to the bottom. Instead of cutting the crossmember, I just made a new bracket above the original cable hole in the bellcrank bell. has been working fine.

Joe
1974 Orange Runabout
1974 soon to be Cruisin' Wagon

rkk

I agree with Bill.  I posted that chart mainly for gear ratio info.  If you used a GM trans I think you would have all kind of issues.  Although it could probably be done with enough time.  My big fear is where the shift linkage would pop out ,could be in some place that would not work.  The T5 from a ford is a pretty save bet.  But I am just speculating , don't have enough info to be sure. ???

Ray
1976 TURBO PINTO
1969 AMC AMX not a pinto, but I like it, fast for not being a FORD (It's different just like a PINTO)

77turbopinto

Quote from: pintoguy76 on December 08, 2007, 02:11:33 PM
...The only difference would be the bellhousing right? And that unbolts so you could change it easily. The input shaft could be different too, i dont know. That can be changed too tho...

No, much more CAN be different. Yes, it just unbolts. Yes, it most likely is different. Yes, it could be changed, but that might not be the only thing different. I have never changed one, but I have heard that it is not that easy.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

pintoguy76

Yes i agree the same gearing may not work as well for both engines. Thats why i was saying my point of view may be distorted due to the fact that i have an NA 2.3 (with a burnt valve and crap for a carburetor) and the 3.00 gears. I actually like the 3.00's better than i do the 3.55's in my wagon, but it may do well with a turbo. Do you think the 6.75 would stand up to the 2.3T long enough for me to see what i need to change, if anything? I know it will need an 8" but i hate to put an 8" w/ 3.55 gears in it only to find out i hate it and really only want 3.25s or something. Looking online it appears my 76 MPG Pony actually weighs as much as my 74 wagon. The weight went up on these cars every year so once 76 came around even the mpg pony (the cheapest and highest economy version) was heavier than the wagons of previous years. This information courtesy of wikipedia.org under ford pinto. So with this said theroetically whatever works in the 76 should work i the 74. since theyre about the same weight wise.  The SVO trans is rare and will be hard to find just as you said however, the same trans with the same gearing was used in many many more GM applications (look at the link RKK posted, any transmission with the "S" code is the trans i am eyeballing). Maybe i could use one of those? The only difference would be the bellhousing right? And that unbolts so you could change it easily. The input shaft could be different too, i dont know. That can be changed too tho. Another option would be seeing if i could find the gears needed to make the trans that ratio, maybe there are gear sets made so you can change the gearing to your needs. The final option is to take what i can get and make it work. Its not like i'm trying to win some big race that i must win to keep my sponsorship or something. But would still be nice to have a perfect setup.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

77turbopinto

Like I said, what works well with the N/A engine might not be right for a turbo engine. Just something to look at while you are building the car. For me, I put the 8" rear in my car before I got the gears I wanted. Also, I ran my C3 for a while. I knew I where I was going so when the car was not 'right' I just kept swapping parts as I went.

As I have posted, my Pinto has the 86 T/C tranny and 3.40 gears. I also mentioned that IMHO a 2.3T with a T/C T-5 SHOULD work well with a rear from 3.00 to 3.55 depending on tire size. That was NOT to say that others WON'T work. IF (and when) I ever need to pull the tranny back out, I will replace it with my 87 T/C T-5. That change will drop my RPM's by 100 at 65MPH, but first gear will not be effected too much.

One more thing: SVO's are rare, and to find THAT T-5 might be hard, and if you do, it might bring a very high sticker price.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

pintoguy76

Well on my way home this afternoon i paid close attention to my shift rpm, and performance and all that and it seems to me that in town normal driving, the stock gearing is great. It does bog down a little in 1st but i think thats a carburetor issue. (I still havnt got those all fixed yet. When i rebuilt the carb a few years ago it didnt do that anymore it was amazing. I probably need to kit this one again, its been opened and messed with several times since it was rebuilt.) Anyways, the drop from 1st to 2nd is even ok. BUT if you're driving  like youre in the indy 500, that 1st to 2nd drop is a doozie!! This may be the reason ford used the gearing that they did in the 85-86 SVO. Now, this doesnt mean that even the stock gearing (those other than the 85-86 svo) wouldnt be better with with a bit lower gear because id be lying if i said it wouldnt.  But with that gearing 3.55s seem too low in my wagon which will have similar gearing ratio to both my 76 and the T5s. So with that being said, i'll be on the lookout for a positrac unit for my 8" rear, and a set of 3.25 gears, or the gears closest to that whatever that might be. Also ill just live with whatever 4 cyl T5 i find. If i dont like it ill use it in the wagon and then go with the 85-86 svo trans. I may even try it with the stock 3.00 gears first. Boy, getting optimal performance (while maintaning decent milage too) is alot of work! But i think it'll be worth it in the end. And it gives me something to tinker with :)
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

What i was saying about the pinto trans is that i dislike the drop from 1st to 2nd i really meant with the 2.3 and not nessecarily the 2.3T. A T5 is geared with about the same drop and thats where thats where i got that i thought that drop would zoop for a turbo as well. I should have clarified that. That is with the 3.00 gears and stock tires. It just drops the RPM too much. If it were a bit lower i could get better acceleration and leave the stock rear gears alone for better milage overall. However the same thing applies to the 2.3T.

This would all be trial and error and the best combo will just have to be tried. I do think the rear may need a slightly lower gear but also think that 2nd gear being just a little lower would help some too. If the engine drops out of its power range when you shift it really hurts you. The car i'm in refrence to doesnt really produce much power until something like 3,000 rpm. Thats when it seems to come alive. If i revved it a little higher before i shifted then 2nd is better but its still a big drop. With the stock engine being carbureted and naturally aspirated its responce could be very different that that of the 2.3T, and a jet change or something might help get the performance out of the 2.3 a little lower. Ive noticed before when i screwed with the jets that the RPM at which it starts to perform changes. Id rather go EFI anyways tho. The T5 like i was would help in my case now but may not be as good with a turbo i dont know like i said ill just have to try different combos. Sounds like alot of work, but thats what racers do. Performance doesnt always come without some work and trial and error. It may not even be worth it to worry much about transmission gears, i dont know.

Its really hard to explain my way of thinking on here, i hope i'm doing ok lol. I am not disagreeing with you i see all your points, but trying to explain mine too. My view may be distorted due to my setup. 3.00 gears and a stock carbed 2.3. That and my car is totally configured for milage, being an MPG Pony model. My wagon has 3.55 rear gears and 2nd gear is awesome in it, but you pay for that extra gearing all the time. My best friend drives that car most of the time and wont take it out on the highway because he thinks it sounds like its little hamster is gonna have a heart attack (lol). What hes saying is it sounds like its revving the snot outta that little engine. I dont like it either, by the time i hit 70 im ready to back off of it. After 50-55mph it really isnt too comfortable anymore.

My old 76 mpg (not mpg pony) i think had 3.18 gears and i liked it. Its performance overall seemed great.  But i havnt had that car in 5 years almost so its hard telling not what it was really like. It didnt matter much to me back then. My new 79 has 3.08s but it is automatic so that wont really be a fair comparison.

I guess i will just see how things go, ill use whatever transmission i get ahold of when i put a 2.3t in (will probably go in the 76 first) and see how everything goes from there. I think i'm leaning on 3.25 gears and the 85-86 svo trans tho. In the wagon since its geard so low, it might be  ok having the normal ratios (3.97, 2.3x, 1.39,1.00,0.78). Its gonna have to gear a new rear whenever it gets a 2.3 turbo since it only has a 6.75. So i may make gear changes then on it too. Guess ill just see what happens in the 76 and go from there.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

CHEAPRACER

Quote from: 77turbopinto on December 06, 2007, 04:01:13 PM
If the gearing is too short, you won't be able to spool before you need to shift. Turbo lag is an effect on building boost, not keeping it.

Bill

Ditto, I pull harder in 2nd and 3rd then in 1st due to 1st gear running out too soon. Now factors like full throttle clutch dumping and slicks might change that theory but you get the picture.
Cheapracer is my personality but you can call me Jim '74 Pinto, stock 2.3 turbo, LA3, T-5, 8" 3:55 posi, Former (hot) cars: '71 383 Cuda, 67 440 Cuda, '73 340 Dart, '72 396 Vega, '72 327 El Camino, '84 SVO, '88 LX 5.0

77turbopinto

Quote from: pintoguy76 on December 06, 2007, 07:28:01 PM
...The tire size was different but i forgot what size. Couldnt be too much bigger or they wouldnt fit without work...

You can get some tall tires on the rear of a Pinto without much work.

Quote from: pintoguy76 on December 06, 2007, 07:28:01 PM
....The main problem i have with the pinto trans is that drop from 1st to 2nd gear. Its too steep! That would zoop for a turbo...

Why do you think that would be a problem with a 2.3T? (I would think durability would be a bigger issue) 

Keep in mind that Ford set up the tranny gearing based on the car's weight, HP (torque), tire size, final drive ratio, and SOMETIMES for MPG.

What works well in a 2.3T might not in a N/A 2.3 and the other way around.

A 2.3T will not be able to build much boost, if any, in 1st gear anyway, so I think you are just better off using a lower gear to get moving. Having THAT gear in the tranny lets you use taller gears in the axle for highway mileage.

IMHO this is what you need to look at more than just the tranny gears themselves: What did Ford use for final drive gears with the SVO and T/C with EACH T-5 tranny in the different years? What are the weights of those cars compaired to a Pinto? What were the rated HP on those cars? What were the tire radiuses on those cars? What are your goals (what are you going to do with the car)?

Also keep in mind that this is all just theory until YOU test-drive the car.

I recommend doing the same formulas for RPM's on your choices for 1st gear in the tranny.


Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

pintoguy76

Yes it was the same guy. The tire size was different but i forgot what size. Couldnt be too much bigger or they wouldnt fit without work.

I think i want an 85-86 SVO T5. It has a 3.50 first gear (compared to a pintos 3.65-ish first gear) and then a 2.14 second gear (compared to the pintos 1.97-ish 2nd gear) and then third is 1.39 (the pinto is about that also i think) and then 1:1 for fourth, same as the pinto. Od is .78 on that trans i think.  A bit steep for a stock pinto motor. The main problem i have with the pinto trans is that drop from 1st to 2nd gear. Its too steep! That would zoop for a turbo. It seems as tho every other t5 has some crappy gear ratios like 4.03 to 2.37 which is an insane drop of 1.66 close to that of a pinto. 3.50 to 2.14 is only 1.37 drop. That will rev it a bit faster and give it some more power. The other two ratios are about right in the pinto i think.  The main thing i hate is the drop from 1st to 2nd that just kills it. A lower rear gear would help but if the drop was smaller between 1st and 2nd it would help even even with the lower gear. I would like to use a 2.3T, 85-86 svo T5, and stock size tires and an 8inch rear with a 3.25ish gear. (a good quality tire, or perhaps a little wider but with the same heighth overall and a bigger wheel (thus smaller sidewall for better handling). Thatd give power and milage. The turbo should still boost pretty well that way (especially with the gearing closer together) but the engine wouldnt rev too high on the highway either since the OD would knock it down some. And if you needed a little extra boost, just stay in 3rd gear longer. Its not a huge drop from 3rd to 4th.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

77turbopinto

Quote from: pintoguy76 on December 06, 2007, 01:26:29 PM
....I was told the 2.3T needs lower gears to keep it revved some, i guess to reduce turbo lag or something i dont know...

If the gearing is too short, you won't be able to spool before you need to shift. Turbo lag is an effect on building boost, not keeping it.

Quote from: pintoguy76 on December 06, 2007, 01:26:29 PM
...One person i talked to about it said he runs 4.11s with a C4 and a 2.3T (and makes 30mpg freeway. that sound right for having no od?) But i refuse to go that low on gearing. 3.55's is barly tolerable to me with no od.

Same person maybe??

Does not sound right to me, but it would also depend on the tire size. My tan car with a T-5 and 3.40's gets 30 on long trips. Connie's Pinto had 3.55's with the stock C3 (1to1 3rd) and N/A engine and got 20 highway. Now with the 2.3T, same tranny and 3.00 gears it gets about 24 MPG on long trips (much shorter tires). (EDITED TO FIX NUMBERS)

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

pintoguy76

I wondered about 3.25's also. I was just thinking about this a day or two ago. The 3.55s in my wagon seem too low to me without the overdrive (might be ok with a T5 tho) and the 3.00's in my 76 i like, but still are a bit high i think. I was thinking something in the 3.2x range would be just right. But thats for a 4spd and a stock 2.3. I plan on using 3.55s with a 2.3 turbo and T5, but I may change my mind and use the 3.25s or 3.40s. I was told the 2.3T needs lower gears to keep it revved some, i guess to reduce turbo lag or something i dont know. One person i talked to about it said he runs 4.11s with a C4 and a 2.3T (and makes 30mpg freeway. that sound right for having no od?) But i refuse to go that low on gearing. 3.55's is barly tolerable to me with no od.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

77turbopinto



Quote from: Wittsend on December 06, 2007, 01:30:14 AM
RKK,
I don't qualify as an expert, but in preparing to do a like swap I've investigated similar considerations. I compared my likelihood of using 215-60-15 tires and a 3:40 rear to the Turbo Coupes 225-60-16 and  3:55 rear. They are VERY close in comparision (65 MPH in O/D).

Stock Turbo Coupe, 26.6" Tires (225/60-16), 3.55 Stock Rear Ratio = 2331 RPM

Pinto 25.2" Tires (215/60-15) 3.40 Rear Ratio = 2357 RPM

When one factors in that the Pinto is about 1,000 pounds light it was my inclination that 3:25's might give the best of both worlds.
Remember to factor tire size (as well) and not just ratios. It is a combination of the trans gears, the rear gears AND the tire size that determine the overall results. It is worth the time to do the math and compare the "effecive" ratios of any change. If you have a basis (running car) to compare to, then you can have some idea of what your end results will be.
Tom

Also keep in mind that the "tire radius" is measured from the ground to the axis when properly inflated and full load. Using charts is good for estimates, but two tires the same "indicated" size can be very different in overall height and tread width.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

Wittsend

RKK,
I don't qualify as an expert, but in preparing to do a like swap I've investigated similar considerations. I compared my likelihood of using 215-60-15 tires and a 3:40 rear to the Turbo Coupes 225-60-16 and  3:55 rear. They are VERY close in comparision (65 MPH in O/D).

Stock Turbo Coupe, 26.6" Tires (225/60-16), 3.55 Stock Rear Ratio = 2331 RPM

Pinto 25.2" Tires (215/60-15) 3.40 Rear Ratio = 2357 RPM

When one factors in that the Pinto is about 1,000 pounds light it was my inclination that 3:25's might give the best of both worlds.
Remember to factor tire size (as well) and not just ratios. It is a combination of the trans gears, the rear gears AND the tire size that determine the overall results. It is worth the time to do the math and compare the "effecive" ratios of any change. If you have a basis (running car) to compare to, then you can have some idea of what your end results will be.
Tom

77turbopinto

Quote from: pintoguy76 on December 04, 2007, 10:42:23 PM
Im kinda curious to know if a 2.3 has the power to pull the OD in a T5 with 3.00 gears. Does it make much of a milage difference? My wagon with 3.55s should definntly benefit from the OD both milage wise and wear on the engine wise. Also i think really the T5 might actually make our cars perform better in town because the drop from 1st to 2nd gear surly isnt as steep as it is on the pinto 4 speed. If i remember right the drop from 1st to 2nd gear is almost 2 full points!! They did that for the economy of it im sure. My 76 performs great in first gear but the R's drop WAY down in 2nd gear and it becomes a slug until the R's get back in the 2500-3000+ range. I might be satisfield with the performance of this thing with a T5 but i still want fuel injection, and if i am going to mess with that i might as well do the efi turbo swap and have some fun too, right?  ;D :D

Keep in mind that the "tallest" overall gearing Ford put in Pintos was 2.73 (4th gear 1-to-1 and a 2.73 rear). If you run the 86 T/C T-5, the O/D gear is .81 (others are similar), so if you run a rear that is 3.40, in O/D you will be about the same as the 1-to-1 fourth (all Pinto 4spd's have 4th gears that are 1-to-1). A stock Pinto 2.3 might have some issues with gears from 2.73 to 3.40 and an O/D of .81; with gas economy being so critical in the later years of the Pinto, I am sure Ford put the TALLEST gears they knew would work.

When I first put the T-5 in my tan car, I still had the 2.79 gears in the 8" rear. It was OK in O/D, but I have the EFI 2.3T. At the time I only had one 8" rear with 3.40 gears and I was not sure of it's condition, but I figured that 3.00 would work (I had 3 carriers with them) with the power I had if the 3.40's were shot. The 3.40's are fine, and with 215 60-14's on the rear, I think the car is geared perfect for me and how I drive the car; I am not shifting out of 1st gear too quickly and 5th lets me be well under 3K at 65MPH. I do need to install a locker to keep the right rear from spinning right before I shift from 2nd to 3rd.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

rkk

Here is a link with the T5 transmission gear ratios
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Borg-Warner-T5-ID-Tags.htm

The starter sounds like a pretty good idea.  Just depends how much you want to spend
1976 TURBO PINTO
1969 AMC AMX not a pinto, but I like it, fast for not being a FORD (It's different just like a PINTO)

pintoguy76

lol @ me posting 3 times in a row on the same topic. Anyways i forgot to mention something else that ive been thinking about alot that i always forget to post. In i think 92 ford changed over to a high torque starter (mini starter i think) on the 2.3s. (the price also jumped like 5x lol) I am curious if i could put one of those on (or if itd be required with the T5 flywheel) when i change to a T5. The newer starters seem to be quieter and i imagine they turn the motor over faster and maybe even more efficently (less battery drain). These old stock pinto starters are loud as hell. And each one seems to sound different. Hoping the newer type starter will be quieter. Converting to a T5 trans will make these cars seem like a whole new car. The trans is surly quieter, the gearing better (plus having od) and hopefully a quieter starter. Thats a BIG change.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

Im kinda curious to know if a 2.3 has the power to pull the OD in a T5 with 3.00 gears. Does it make much of a milage difference? My wagon with 3.55s should definntly benefit from the OD both milage wise and wear on the engine wise. Also i think really the T5 might actually make our cars perform better in town because the drop from 1st to 2nd gear surly isnt as steep as it is on the pinto 4 speed. If i remember right the drop from 1st to 2nd gear is almost 2 full points!! They did that for the economy of it im sure. My 76 performs great in first gear but the R's drop WAY down in 2nd gear and it becomes a slug until the R's get back in the 2500-3000+ range. I might be satisfield with the performance of this thing with a T5 but i still want fuel injection, and if i am going to mess with that i might as well do the efi turbo swap and have some fun too, right?  ;D :D
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

The way i understand it, the 4 cylinder T5s have a smaller input shaft than the V8 T5s so likly you need the smaller T/O bearing.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

Pintony

Quote from: rkk on December 04, 2007, 03:09:13 PM


Hey Tony I am going to try the bracket we discussed for the clutch.  If it doesn't work, try something else.  I just hate to pull my engine backout to cut that channel.

COOL!!! Keep us posted if it works out!!!!

rkk

Thanks for your help everyone.  I priced clutches for both through summit and they aren't any more for the 9.  Except I have to buy a flywheel, but even that is cheap, about $60 which is almost the price of getting one resurfaced.  Just have to figure out now what input shaft diameter I have.  You guys probably already know this but T5s came with either 1.063 or 1.125 input shafts which I guess will make a difference on the throw out bearing.

I keep learning :read:

It is like remodeling a room in your house one thing leads to another.

Hey Tony I am going to try the bracket we discussed for the clutch.  If it doesn't work, try something else.  I just hate to pull my engine backout to cut that channel.
1976 TURBO PINTO
1969 AMC AMX not a pinto, but I like it, fast for not being a FORD (It's different just like a PINTO)

turbo toy

I would reccomend using the 9 1/4 inch flywheel and clutch/pressure plate setup from the Turbo Coupe. With a good tune and a little extra boost the small clutch won't take the abuse the engine will put it through. Clutch slippage is probably the biggest problem with these swaps.=====Well, except for traction.

UltimatePinto

As I mentioned in the thread Bill refereed to, the actual cut into the crossmember is not all that difficult, if you decide to go that route.

I think that it, ( the crossmember), stayed the same throughout the production years. In design anyway. It's only about 14 gauge sheet where you have to cut into it. Four inch square tube works great. I took care to drill holes in the bottom of mine to plug weld it to the bottom of the cross member, again using c-clamps to make sure it was pressed against the thick part of the crossmember.

I set up a bare block to my T-5 in the engine compartment to make sure I placed the square tube correctly. I did have to make my clutch cable longer but my application is for a two liter.

Al

77turbopinto

Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

Pintony

Hello RKK,
I used the 8.5 clutch.
Yes the Turbo coupe flywheel is necessary if you use the 9" clutch.
I bought a high $ clutch rom racerwalsh and centerforce.
But guess what?? I'm running an 8.5 Autozone replacement clutch and it works just fine behind my T-2.0.
From Pintony

rkk

Okay one more question.  What flywheel and clutch for the T5.  I have looked for the answer, but can't find.

I can use the 8.5 clutch that was stock on the Pinto or should I use the bigger 9 in clutch and if so do I need a differnt flywheel.
1976 TURBO PINTO
1969 AMC AMX not a pinto, but I like it, fast for not being a FORD (It's different just like a PINTO)

rkk

Thank you, Bill you have been a big help on every question.  It's nice to be able to ask the expert
1976 TURBO PINTO
1969 AMC AMX not a pinto, but I like it, fast for not being a FORD (It's different just like a PINTO)

77turbopinto

Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.