Mini Classifieds

1978 FORD PINTO PONY FOR SALE 17.000 MILES !!!!!!!!!!!!

Date: 06/25/2021 12:59 am
73 2.0 Timing Crank Gear & Woodruff key WANTED
Date: 09/01/2017 07:52 am
Early Rare Small window hatch
Date: 08/16/2017 08:26 am
1980 PINTO for sale
Date: 06/19/2017 02:51 pm
1979 Pinto 3-door Runabout *PRICE REDUCED*

Date: 08/01/2023 06:53 pm
73 Caliper Retaining Key
Date: 10/28/2021 07:49 am
Oil pan front sump style
Date: 01/10/2017 09:19 am
Needed- Good 71-73 Rear End or parts- close to AL
Date: 09/15/2019 12:38 pm
99' 2.5l lima cylinder head

Date: 01/13/2017 01:56 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,573
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 1,722
  • Online ever: 1,722 (Today at 02:19:48 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 625
  • Total: 625
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Title question

Started by FlyerPinto, November 08, 2007, 09:49:45 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bipper


Calif. has a law where the buyer is liable for back DMV fees for up to 7 years with a near 200% fine each year.

California has to try and balance the state buget somehow. Last I head it was 5 years so this is good to know. Also this is another incentive to keep old cars from being put back on the road. Instead they will be junked or crushed. This is what the California wants to see happen anyway.

Quote from: CHEAPRACER on November 30, 2007, 11:03:16 PM
I also heard they can hold your state income tax return for back fees, but not positive

I don't know for sure about the hold on your tax return (although it wouldn't surprise me) but they can garnish your wages for the back fees. I have a friend here in Orange County that this happened to. And the car wan't even drivable at the time!

Bob   
71 Sedan, stock
72 Pangra
73 Runabout, 2L turbo propane

CHEAPRACER

Quote from: Wittsend on November 30, 2007, 03:59:11 PM
Calif. has a law where the buyer is liable for back DMV fees for up to 7 years with a near 200% fine each year. Hence, you can buy a car that has sat in a driveway for 6 years and 11 months and as far as the DMV is concern you owe them the back fees. Thus, even a $1 car can be liable about $400-$600 dollars in fines before you can register it. All this can be avoided if the owner puts the car on On-Op status for a $15 one time fee.


I also heard they can hold your state income tax return for back fees, but not positive
Cheapracer is my personality but you can call me Jim '74 Pinto, stock 2.3 turbo, LA3, T-5, 8" 3:55 posi, Former (hot) cars: '71 383 Cuda, 67 440 Cuda, '73 340 Dart, '72 396 Vega, '72 327 El Camino, '84 SVO, '88 LX 5.0

Wittsend

Ironically here in California I had..., shall I say..., no problem. I was given a 1961 Corvair station wagon with no plates or pink slip, just a bill of sale.  The story is that the car was driven to Calif. from Michigan where it promptly died and was left to sit for over 20 years. The car was never registered in Calif. It "changed hands" a few times and then I got it.

Thus, when I went to the DMV they treated it as if it had "just" been brought into the state even though it sat here for over 20 years. I paid I think $15, they verified the VIN and the car was placed on "Non-Op" status where it still resides after 12 years.

In another case I was given a Datsun 510 (yes, I run an auto orphange) that was previously registered in Calif. However, since it had been 16 years it was off their books.

The trouble I ran into was the 510 was so modified that there was no dash. The DMV required the VIN tag be on the dash even though it was stamped on the firewall and a riveted plate in the door jam. It took me 2 years to find a dash before I could register the the car! Oh, thankfully the owner had put the dash vin plate on the key ring, otherwise...  .

Calif. has a law where the buyer is liable for back DMV fees for up to 7 years with a near 200% fine each year. Hence, you can buy a car that has sat in a driveway for 6 years and 11 months and as far as the DMV is concern you owe them the back fees. Thus, even a $1 car can be liable about $400-$600 dollars in fines before you can register it. All this can be avoided if the owner puts the car on On-Op status for a $15 one time fee.

When I recently bought my Pinto an important attraction was that the car was already registered even though it was proported to have sat for 12 years.
Tom

LBF

I bought an '89 Cadillac from an individual in Illinois this summer, and when I tried to title it in Missouri I was informed that the VIN on the Illinois title was one number off from the one on the car, which had been verified by the shop that performed the MO safety inspection.  I had to take the car to the MO Highway Patrol "inspection station" where they verified the VIN on the car, and checked to see if it was stolen or not.  It was actually pretty painless - just one more form to get filled out - and I had plates on the car because they gave them to me when I applied for the MO title the first time.  Of course, I had a properly signed Illinois title in the first place.

r4pinto

When I bought my 85 Omni GLH Turbo off a buddy of mine it was never retitiled when he bought it from South Carolina. Took 4 months to get everything straightened out so I could take delivery of the car. I live in Reynoldsburg, around the corner from Columbus, so I know what idiots they can be. Come to think of it, that's all the Ohio BMV employs. It's so stupid we still gotta have actual titles for the older cars out here in Ohio, but I guess we gotta be different. lol
Matt Manter
1977 Pinto sedan- Named Harold II after the first Pinto(Harold) owned by my mom. R.I.P mom- 1980 parts provider & money machine for anything that won't fit the 80
1980 Pinto Runabout- work in progress

crazyhorse

When you start crossing state lines with missing car titles...EWWWWWW (where's the sick icon?)
You'd think that it would just be twice as hard to title the beast. NOPE! It's 4x as hard!

I've owned my SVX for 2mo, I STILL don't have the title back. I dunno why. I'll let TN & KY do thier thing till after the holidays before I start going postal. :devil:
How to tell when a redneck's time is up: He combines these two sentences... Hey man, hold my beer. Hey y'all watch this!
'74 Runabout, stock 2300,auto  RIP Darlin.
'95 Olds Gutless "POS"
'97 Subaru Legacy wagon "Kat"

maverick

i bought a '77 comet with no title. i had to get a noterized bill of sale from the guy i got it from then take it to a state police officer thats on duity at the DMV. he then runs the tags and vin to see if its stolen or wanted for a crime or things of that nature. It came back clean so i took that paper work over to the head guy at the DMV that handles titles and it was his job to trace it back to see if the car doesnt rightfully belong to someone else. for example, to make sure im not trying to buy grandma's car off her grandkid without her knowlege. he couldnt find any history and after a month he decided to give me a title (although it says Ford Comet...) :wow:   in the mean time i was still able to get a temp tag and leagaly drive that car.

getting a new title is all handled diffretly state to state so i cant say that it'll be that easy out there.

good luck

FlyerPinto

I'm working on getting a title for a 77 Cruising Wagon I brought home from Illinois this past spring. After discussing the situation with the BMV in Columbus I was directed to the local clerk of courts as the next logical (!) step in the process. I didn't hear anything back from my message for a couple of weeks and was preparing to go down to the courthouse and take advantage of my First Amendment rights when a call came into my office. It was an investigator from the Clerk of Courts and all this guy does is check out issues for the courts, primarily auto related. Eventually we met out at the house and he looked at the Pinto in question and is checking to see if it is stolen or if he can locate the last titled owner. Then he will tell me what to do next to get a title, more than likely involving either what is termed a "friendly lawsuit" where I sue the Clerk of Courts, or going back to the BMV in Columbus. If I can't get a title, I can't sell the car, at least according to him as it is illegal to do so in Ohio. So, if this doesn't work out, I'll be parting out the 77. Anyone encounter this kind of thing before? I know there can be issues with titles, and I tried to get both the county sheriff and the highway patrol to check if the thing was hot, but they wouldn't. He works at the title branch here locally and he can and will do it for free. Go figure. I would say only in Ohio, but somehow I have a feeling that may not be true. I'll post again when I have more info...
1977 Bobcat HB
1977 Bobcat HB
1978 Pinto Cruising Wagon

So many projects, so little time...