Mini Classifieds

Great Cruise wagon

Date: 12/17/2016 03:39 pm
Steering Wheel Needed for 1972 Pinto
Date: 08/08/2018 12:26 pm
73 Runabout

Date: 11/20/2017 03:19 pm
74 hood
Date: 07/03/2017 03:46 pm
Anyone scrapping a 1980
Date: 03/13/2020 08:46 pm
Crane Cam
Date: 02/26/2018 07:50 am
1971 2.0 valve cover
Date: 01/25/2019 07:09 pm
Front sway bar frame brackets
Date: 07/13/2017 01:05 am
Anyone scrapping a 1980
Date: 03/13/2020 08:46 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 2,457
  • Online ever: 2,670 (May 09, 2025, 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 520
  • Total: 520
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

V8 Help???

Started by drive80pinto, March 01, 2007, 12:10:09 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

drive80pinto

High_Horse
I Looked at your posts on your project and i am getting a good idea at how im going to to this. Those motor mounts looks pretty sweet and i am looking to do somthing like that. I am going to move to "your projects" to talk about my build project beucase i posted in the wrong place here. I have two questions which you can answer in my post in "your projects" Did the motor clear the hood with no modifications? Do the solid mounts really shake your car up alot?

High_Horse

Drive80Pinto,
      I documented just about every little detail in "Projects". I did mine about two years. It is still there and I would be happy to answer any questions.

                                                                                                                                                                           High_Horse
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

drive80pinto

Sounds good, I would like this car to handle simi well i have a 85 mustang for my straight line fun. How did you guys exacly put in your V8s? and how much time/work is it. I totally rebuild my mustang so i know what im doing and can fabricate the frame if i need to. before i get started i would like to jsut et some ideas on how your guys did it.
thanks

77turbopinto

I agree with 302B, better brakes, or power brakes should be used. My V8 car has stock power with good pads and it does OK.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

Pinto302B

Just one more opinion on the handling. My V8 Pinto is not optimized for straight line running, even with a heavier 351W in it, and I think it handled very well indeed. Heavier front springs, good stiff shocks, sway bar and so on helped, but the biggest change was pulling off the puny front tires and putting some decent sized ones on it. Favorite activity in it, (besides humiliating late model iron and rice) squeezing the power on in a sweeper turn. G forces = good. Putting a much lighter, rev happy engine in it (as time/money permit) and can't wait to see the diff. Only thing I would caution about, as hinted at in a previous post; the car has very a short wheelbase, so if the rear starts coming around, it will do so quickly. With plenty of rubber, only borderline insane applications of power in tight turns will get you into trouble. One thing you should certainly do (IMHO) is increase front brake size. You can find whole kits from the Mustang II front end specialists/hot rod suppliers or even the 11" rotors for Pinto spindles from US Brake through Summit, Jeg's, etcetera. Happy hunting.


'72 was 351W T10 4spd will be 302 Boss TKO RR600 5spd

redmustangman3

Bill is right on with his comments. My 71 V8 Pinto (365 hp) handles OK, but you must be aware that handling problems are lurking. My V8 Pinto is made to go fast in a straight line for short distances, or cruise down freeways at freeway speeds. Applying power on turns and you are asking for trouble. Oh by the way, they also look really COOL at car shows !! Joe
1971- 289 V8; B&M C4; 9" with 4:11 posi. Several suspension upgrades and body modifications.
1974- 2.3L wagon,4-spd,totally stock. Medium lime yellow, avacado interior, 99k miles.
1972- 1984 Mustang SVO turbo; 5-speed tremec; 9" rear w/positraction; fiberglass front & doors; upgraded suspension.

77turbopinto

I drive my V8 Pinto like it is a V8 Pinto. I don't expect it to handle like anything other than what it is, and I don't think is is that 'bad'. Pintos can be made to handle fairly well, but they will never be as good as other cars no-matter what you do.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

drive80pinto

how does your pinto handle with that v8 in it compared to the 4 cyl? is it much worse or not to bad?

77turbopinto

I have no idea on the firewall, never did it.

You can use other (cheaper) aftermarket motor mounts if you custom make the frame mounts.

Again, I don't know where you heard your info. My car has the regular fan, but I did modify it to relocate it back a bit.

IMHO: Do some searching around this site, you should find all the (correct) info you need.

Bill
Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

drive80pinto

Ok thankyou, I was planning on moving the engine back so that some of the weight will be moved back. how much needs to be done to the firewall? What do you do about the motor mounts?do you have to make custom ones? or is there ones you can buy? And also i herd that you can put an electric fan intsead of the normall fan and it might fit. I am away at school now but when i get home im going to look at my pinto and the 302 i have sitting around

thanks for you help

77turbopinto

My standard reply due to the number of people that attempt to rip-off Pinto owners:

The Mustang II and the '74 and later Pinto do share their front suspention components, BUT the cars are NOT THE SAME; the front "sub-frame" is different. The V8 motor mount brakets DO NOT bolt into a Pinto. The track-width of a Pinto is about 1.5" narrower than a Muatang II.

I don't know who told you that you NEED to move the engine back, but you don't if you don't want to. Best way? Buy one that is already built, other than that, move the radiator forward.

Yes, the Pinto will be nose heavy, but other cars are are heavy-er overall; it's a trade off.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

drive80pinto

I have this 1980 pinto that i want to fit a 302 into it. I know that the pintos and the mustang 2s had the same front suspension so i figure a 302 would fit right it but i think that the pinto will be way to heavy in the front. Also i know that i could probaly just use front springs from a mustang 2 with a 302. I herd that i would have to do a lot of work and cut the firewall and move the engine back. whats the best way to going about this?Im new to these pintos so help would be appricated