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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

fuel pump issues and advice requested

Started by Cookieboy, August 21, 2006, 07:19:04 PM

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pintoguy76

Ahhh yes the slop in the shaft is very bad.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

Cookieboystoys

mine is for the 2.0 but it's the slop in the shaft I'm refering to and yes it's a bad thing when you have a lot of slop in the shafts. I would guess the rattle you are refering to is the weights for the mechanical advance in the distributor, small weights that engage and work in conjunction with the vacuum advance. The ford mechanic I spoke to said it could very well explain why engine backfires at higher RPM's because with as much slop as my distributor has it throws off the point gap. He showed me how with the shaft wobbling in the distributor it will open and close the points way beyond spec.

BTW he thinks I have carb issues too but agrees with me that fixing this first and then moving on to the carb is a good idea. My choke will not stay closed causing hard starts and he agreed that on the couple occasions I had serious issues w/the carb it sounded like the float got stuck. My goal is to Eliminate one thing at a time and move on to the next.... I just hope I can git-r-done before the snow starts  :(
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

pintoguy76

Those 2.3 distributors do rattle if you shake it. My old one did it and both the brand new ones ive had. I dont remember what does it but it doesnt mean anything bad.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

Cookieboystoys

I think I may still have some carb issues but... know I'm having issues w/distributor. Couldn't find a distributor at any of the parts stores without a week wait and high cost so I found one on Ebay. Finally got arround to installing it (was out of town 4 weekends in a row) and turned out to be the wrong one so I returned it for credit.

I'm still waiting for a special order from Napa, should be here today or tomorrow. While trying to swap for the new one i got off ebay I noticed the distributor I pulled sounds like a childs rattle if you shake it.... oooo it's bad has a lot of slop in it. I also have the PerTronics Ignitor Kit to convert the points to electronic to avoid any issues with points, dwell, condensor, etc...

Once I have this done we'll see how it runs and go from there...
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

allfordmark

Ther is one additional thing that I do not see mentioned here.  On the carburetor the venturies for both the Primary and Secondary cant get loose and cause rough idle.
If you can wiggle the venturi support in the center of the throat with moderate finger pressure then it will not idle correctly.
If it is loose then the top of the carb needs to come off and the bracket needs to be staked (punched) to tighten it properly. 
To correct position the venturi it needs to be tight to the same side of the throat as the bowl.  You should see the original stake marks on the body of the carb. They look like it was hit with a small screw driver.
'66 Mustang
'72 Pinto
'50 F-1 1/2 ton Pick-up

Cookieboystoys

I gave it some time to think about my options... was out of town for the weekend.

With the help of goodolboydws I was able to determine that my Vacume Advance wasn't working correctly. Seems the distributor has so much rust inside it's unable to move properly. I have seen the rust and it is bad, I got it to start moving but it is still sticking. I was able to determine that I should have plenty of vacuum and don't have any leaks that I can detect. I was also able to determine that the fuel pump is working. The motor sounds great but I have a missing and back fire issue and seems the vacuum advance would be the most likely culprit. Currently I can't time the engine correctly because of the vacuum advance.

So.... I ordered a rebuilt distributor, the Petronix Ignitor I kit to replace the points system and a new coil. I want to ensure that I have no further problems that will be associated with the spark system and timing or timing advance systems. This is the easiest way for the non-mechanic (ME!!!) to ensure I have no further issues with these 2 systems and I hope the best chance to fix these problems.

now I'm just waiting for parts

I still have a carb that worries me... and I just want to remove these 2 systems from the possible causes list. Since I know there are 3 areas that could be causing the issues I'm having I hope by eliminating 2 of them it allows me concentrate on the final one.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

goodolboydws

I think that you may be getting too much TOTAL ignition advance, and that WOULD tend to show up as a miss at higher engine rpm, and that may be what you are calling backfire. A weak ignition system could also produce a miss at higher rpm, also if your carb is not allowing a proper and consistent fuel flow only at higher rpm for some reason, the engine may be missing due to an overly rich OR lean condition.

Sounds as if it's time to start narrowing down the possibilities.

With a timing light, you can test to see if the spark is firing consistently at higher rpm-just look at the light directly, and watch for anything other than a steady flashing. If you see any irregular flashing, either there is a problem with the timing light itself, it has a poor source of energy (if it's powered from the battery), or there is an electrical timing miss. If it is an electrical ignition miss, it will show up this way.

If the ignition a works up to the spark plug wires without showing a miss, and the plugs themselves appear to be clean and properly gapped on inspection, the next step in your situation as you described it, would be to try to determine which distributor advance system may be part of the remaining problem.

Part about how distributor advance works that you need to know now, is that when  the throttle is opened QUICKLY, the vacuum to the distributor should drop to almost zero, with ONLY the centrifucal advance still working. Then, as the engine picks up speed, and needs less and less throttle to maintain the cars' speed, the vacuum to the distributor will gradually climb back up, once again increasing the vacuum advance. During gradual acceleration, both advance systems will normally continue to work smoothly to gradually advance the timing.   

It sounds as if you may possibly have a situation where the centrifugal advance weights are also sticking in their movement, or possibly one of the springs for one of the weights is broken or bent, either condition could allow the centrifugal part of the advance to be happening incorrectly.

You really should try to get hold of a tach for the distributor testing that follows, at least. It's really difficult to tell what is happening WHEN (rpm-wise) and to corrolate that to typical driving conditions without one.  I wouldn't be too comfortable driving an older stick shift car without a tach these days, maybe I'm just getting old, but I like to know when the drive tire)s) is/are just starting to slip, so that I can adjust for it, especially in rainy or Winter road conditions. 
Don't you have a friend whose testing tachometer (or better yet their dwell/tach) you can at least borrow temporarily?

Anyway,
To distinguish between the 2 types of advance, (centrifugal and vacuum) and to see how much advance is coming from each, so that you have  a way to determine how things stand with each, you need a little more accuracy than your standard timing marks are liable to provide, so before you start, clean off the timing marks and the area next to them, and using a piece of masking tape and a pen, add decently spaced marks to extend the range out to about 40-50 degrees BTDC.

Now disconnect and plug the vacuum advance line(s) and then start and run the engine gradually up to what you think (or know) is several thousand rpms. Compare that figure to the initial figure at low idle, (also with the line disconnected and plugged), and that will give you a fairly good idea idea of what the total centrifugal advance is now. If you had the tach, attached while doing this, you would also know at what RPM the centrifugal advance reaches it's maximum, which is actually fairly important in this situation. While doing this watch to see that any advance is happening gradually and smoothly, not suddenly and changing a lot within only a few hundred rpms (I told you that having a tach was important).
Just as importantly, the mechanical advance should gradually back down as you slowly drop the engine rpm back to idle. It may not even begin to advance until 1500 or more rpm, but as long as it doesn't wait to START advancing until a VERY high rpm, (say 3000rpm)  that is less important than how it behaves once it starts. If it DOES wait until a high rpm to start and takes it's sweet time to BEGIN to drop, and then drops a LOT within a few hundred rpm, THAT would indicate that something in the mechanical advance is dragging. On the other hand, if it advances to it's maximum reading by a relatively low rpm, (say it begins to advance immediately and reaches a total of 15 degrees advance before 2500 rpm, that would indicate a likely bent,or broken mech. advance spring.

Now reattach the vacuum line(s), and gradually run the engine up to at least the same rpm where the centrifugal advance reached it's maximum, and see if the TOTAL advance stops there, or if it continues to increase as you gradually increase the engine rpm past that point.  No matter at what engine rpm it happens, record the TOTAL amount of advance that you see.  You should also be watching to se that the TOTAL advance moves steadily and gradually, not suddenly and a lot at a time, which would indicate that something in one or both advance mechanisms is dragging. (If it is now moving NOT smmothly and steadily, while it WAS  with only the mechanical advance, the problem is atill in the vacuum part.)

Now subtract the figure in degrees that you recorded using ONLY the centrifugal advance from that you recorded using BOTH centrifugal and vacuum advance. This will be the total VACUUM advance.

Remember that each figure begins with subtracting the BEGINNING idle advance reading. The readings you get will likely be something such as: under 15 degrees vacuum advance and 10-20 degrees mechanical advance.

I'm looking in my factory manual for the 1971 Pinto, and they list the following readings for the 2 BOSCH distributors in the 2000 cc engine as follows.  If you have one of these distributors, I would expect the readings to be similar. In any case this should give you ann illustration of how to figure it out, and the rough parameters of engine speed and vacuum used. (A vacuum gauge would tell you how strong a vacuum you are actually getting.)

D1FZ-A (the "1" is for the year, yours will likely be a different #)
vacuum advance:  2 degrees at 5" mercury (low vacuum pressure)
                            7.5degrees max at 25" mercury (high vacuum)

centrifugal advance: 0-1/2 degree at 700 engine rpm
                                 9.75-11.75 degrees maximum at 5000 engine rpm

(TOTAL MAXIMUM ADVANCE 7.5 + 11.75 = 19.25 degrees PLUS the initial timing reading with vacuum advance disconnected and plugged)

D1FZ-C
vacuum advance: 0 degrees at 5" mercury (low vacuum)
                             8-10  degrees maximum at 25" mercury (high vacuum)

centrifugal advance: 0-1/2 degree at 700 engine rpm
                                 10.5-12.5 degrees at 5000 engine rpm

(TOTAL MAXIMUM ADVANCE 10 + 12.5 = 22.5 degrees, PLUS inityial reading, sans vacuum advance connection)

Cookieboystoys

vacuum advance was stuck... rusty and a little sticky. I used brake cleaner and air hose to clean and dry. After I cleand it and worked it back and forth I tried sucking on the vacuum hose and it moved... was difficult but it moved. Can see quite a bit of rust.

Diaphragm holds pressure - no leaks. I checked vacuum from the carb (while running) and lots-o-zoop and hose is newer and tight. No leaks in vacuum from carb to timing advance and diaphragm.

also... if I remove the vacume hose from the advance while the car is running the motor kills.

something else that might be related... while driving when I reach the highest rpm's in first and second the engine backfires. In second I have to be doing about 42 miles per hour on the speedo. First gear it does it real quick. Not sure if the speedo is accurate but I think it's close. I have bigger tires on than stock. The point is, I know I'm pushing the rpm's higher than I should. Without a tack hard to say but I can tell it's close to the limit of 5500rpm or red line I think I recall these engines do. but even with pushing it shouldn't backfire unless the timing advance wasn't working right.

I did get the idle down real low (still no tach available) and if I go by the lable for timing and rpm on the valve cover I was close to the proper rpm's for checking the timing. It looked real close by the light and marks. Gave it a little gas and higher rpm's and the mark moved way off and stayed there. As I recall the timing advance is supposed to help keep things lined up during exceleration and that still doesn't work. Could be because the plate still may not be moving free enough?

I think we have identified a few problems at this point... timing advance doesn't work right, carb still seems sticky, fuel pump and delivery seem to be working good, and as far as points, dwell, condensor and all that crap... would it be worth it to just convert the ignition and get rid of that stuff.  I was considering the PerTronix Kit - Igniter I and a new coil. Nothing fancy but just to avoid all the hassels of points and such. Looks easy to do and remove a lot of doubt or potential problems.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

goodolboydws

Whoa there.

If there was NO DIFFERENCE in the timing when you had the vacuum advance connected and disconnected, there is something wrong with the vacuum advance.

Try taking the cap off of the distributor and look right at the plate that the points are sitting on. Then try sucking on the vacuum hose that goes to the distributor (if there is only one). Lung pressure should be more than enough, to move it through most or all of its range, unless maybe you have emphysema or bad asthma.  That plate should swing around on it's axis when you apply vacuum to the hose, changing the physical relationship between the points rubbing block with that of the distributors cam lobes.   That's how the vacuum advance is suppose to work.

If it does not move, either there is no vacuum reaching it, (like from a leaky hose), the diaphragm is not able to hold air, or there is something inhibiting the linkage arm or the plate's movement mechanically. Rust comes to mind.  There are pivot points in the plate-moving-assembly and it's connecting linkage, and these can rust bind if not lubed from time to time. 
If the plate doesn't move, but you can feel vacuum pressure in the hose, and you also CAN'T get the plate to move with direct finger pressure applied at the end of the linkage arm,  odds are that the advance mechanism or linkage is rusted in place.
In that case, you should be able to fairly easily separate the vacuum unit from the distributor itself, to figure out where the bind is happening.

Dwell is the actual percentage of that portion of the complete circle formed by the distributor cam during which the points are closed, between one lobe and the next, as the distributor cam turns, while the points are closed, waiting (or dwelling) to open and the condenser is accumulating it's energy. Dwell is expressed as an angle.

On a 4 cylinder engine, the distributor cam would typically have 4 lobes, and the theoretical maximum dwell would then be just under 90 degrees. At exactly 90 degrees, the points would never open. In reality, dwell for a 4 cylinder car would seldom exceed 45 degrees, as the longer the dwell, the smaller the actual opening distance there is between the points' 2 contacts and wear to the rubbing block would rapidly close that gap to the point that the engine performance would suffer. Also, the faster the engine turns the distributor, the less time there is for the points' rubbing block to drop back down to the metal of the cam between it's lobes.

With an electrical tach/dwell gauge, you are able to electrically determine that actual angle as the distributor is spinning. The alternative method is to measure the gap formed when the points are open, which is inherently slightly less accurate, but perfectly acceptable. Dwell can usually be adjusted down to about 1/2 degree increments with a tach dwell and a steady hand if someone desires it to be that accurate. Using a feeler gauge set with .001" difference between its leaves, maybe down to 1 to 1-1/2 degree increments at best. Point gap specs are traditionally given as whole thousandths of an inch or in partial millimeters, basically catering to the most commonly available feeler gauge sets, while dwell is usually given as a range of several degrees. 

Cookieboystoys

I checked the timing with the vacume advance disconnected and connected... didn't seem to make any difference

I know the idle is to high but have no way to tell what it is... I don't have a tach

Dwell... heard of it but don't know how to check

points were changed and set

I have read the book but yes... I'm "ad libbing" a bit due to the issues listed above

it did run like it was before the request for help and I consider it running good but not great/perfect.



It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

goodolboydws

I forgot. If your timing has to be changed more than a very small amount, it will usually result in changing the engine' idle speed quite a bit, so if that happens, you have to then readjust the idle speed back to the proper setting and go back and recheck and quite possibly readjust the ignition timing slightly (still with the vacuum lines disconnected).

goodolboydws

When you are checking the timing, do you follow the book procedure all the way, or are you ad libbing? 

The reason I'm asking, is that if you check the timing with the vacuum advcance conected on most cars from this era, the basic ignition timing will be considerably off from the recommended setting.  If you do the timing with the vacuum advance disconnected, once you reconnect the vac advance, the timing can advance quite a bit to the proper factory idle setting IF the vacuum advance is working properly.

Also, the proper curb idle SPEED must be used when timing the engine, as that too will affect the timing. As will mis-set points or points that are changed AFTER setting the timing.

In case you don't have a referece that tells you the procedure, in short form it goes something like this:

Warm up the engine; make sure the choke is fully open; check the points for proper dwell setting (use a dwell /tach or an absolutely clean, grease free feeler gauge; disconnect the vacuum line(s) that are attached to the vacuum advance and plug the lines; check to see that the curb idle speed setting is correct (use a tach);
NOW check and set the basic ignition timing.

pintoguy76

I couldnt get mechanical pumps to work very long on my 76 after i got it. Was goin thru a new one every thousand miles. Even tried 3 or 4 different brands. Finally a brand new carter wouldnt work at all, even tho i could feel if i pushed on the pushrod (which took alot of effort) that it was sucking hard. I think installed an electric fuel pump, but i used a relay and used the coil positive wire as the trigger wire for the relay. That way, im not really pulling any power off the coil, its just using that power to turn the relay on, so it draws its power strait from the battery. I dont use any kind of saftey switch on my pump. If i ever ran it out of gas, i dont know that youd ever get it started again unless you dumped gas down the carb and kept it running long enough to keep the oil pressure up so the oil switch would allow the pump to run  enough to fill the lines back up with fuel and the carb, then it could take over. Would be a pain in the butt, So i installed it with no switch. Never had any problems other than routing wires incorrectly a few times and having them ripped off. oops. lol. I wont mess with a mechanical pump anymore. As my mechanical pumps die, theyre all getting replaced with electic ones.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

Cookieboystoys

well.... I came home and checked the timing and do believe I get inacurate readings. If I set according to the light and marks the car will not run and backfires. A fire even started in the carb... So I advanced the timing to close to where I had it before and it started ideling and running like it did before. I readjusted the idle and took it out for a ride... back to the way it was before all this started. Runs with a slight miss but very drivable.

best guess is that soon after the fire in the carb and after tapping on the carb and choke with the rubber handle of a screwdriver it started running better...   :what:

I have no idea but would guess something was stuck in the carb... either dirt/rust/mechanical

I'm gonna let it sit and cool for a couple hours and try again and then see what it does in the morning...

It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

Cookieboystoys

Goodolboysdws, all the work listed above was done by me or since I've had the car. Previous owner gave me the car w/just enough gas to start and run it a bit but tank was for the most part empty when I got it. Not sure how long he had been letting it sit w/no gas in the tank. I have been able to run a couple tanks of fresh gas thru with cleaner. The only Item the previous owner told me he had done was the head had been redone for unleaded fuel and sounded to me that was many years ago.

The resaon for the rebulid on the carb was because the choke would not close and was stuck open. Seems to work now but I don't think it's perfect. The rebuild and points change/adjusted did allow me to start driving it and did run much better after it was done. The rebuilder does have an excellent rep and carbs is all he really does but as you said... even the experts do have bad day and he did get interupted many times during the rebuild process.

I also notice yesterday when checking for volume and pressure that there was no fuel in the line, had all drained back to the tank. I know fuel was staying in the line previous to this current problem with it not wanting to idle.

I'm still gonna check a few things when I get home like vacume but in the end I think it's going to be carb related.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

dale the pinto man

I had the same problem. I removed the gas tank, took of the sending unit, replaced the fuel fitter in the unit. had the tank boiled out at a radiator shop twice, it was so coroded, put everythin back together and she ran like a dream. Good luck

goodolboydws

Based on the additional information you posted, (in part):

"The pinto has had basicly the same problem thru this whole process... doesn't like to idle smooth...."  and you also say "... it's 33 years old with 90,000 + miles and sat for the last 4 years...."

When you listed all that was done, was some of it (like the rebuilt carb) done prior to that? Anything engine or fuel related done 4 years ago, (or even a year ago if the car is seldom driven) should still be considered to be in the  "may be a problem" category, even if that part has had virtually no run time in the interim. For example, in re. this situation, a rebuilt carb on a seldom run vehicle can sometimes get varnished up enough from evaporating fuel in months to effect performance. (Plus I'm curious, you didn't mention it, but why did the preio owner sell it?)

I think that I'm basically in fairly close agreement with 77turbopinto about the carb's involvement, but with a slightly different perspective.

I would tend to think that when the carb was "rebuilt", it either did not solve a carb related or an unrelated problem that was ALREADY present, or the "rebuilding" may have started the problem. At any rate, it now seems (IMHO) a better bet that at least PART of the problem is within the carb. and another part of the problem may be several unresolved issues, possibly unrelated ones,  that the prior owner could not figure out.

It's fairly easy to rebuild one of these carbs, if you have the manual dexterity, patience, a decently lit place to work, have the correct specifications and can follow detailed instructions well enough to do it correctly.

Unfortunately, as far as following directions and specifications go many wannabe mechanics seem to think that with carbs, "Any way that I do it is ok, as long as the parts get back together, and close is close enough, I don't need no stinkin' directions!" It ain't so.  PLUS anyone, even really talented pros, can have a bad day, may have installed a part that passed inspection, worked correctly initially, and yet has failed prematurely,  or they may have been interrupted during the teardown/rebuild and missed a critical adjustment, (the truly good and honest good ones will admit to that possibility, while the others won't).

 I've had to fix several owner "rebuilt" as well as  factory "remanufactured" carbs that were only installed by the owners over the years, and without fail when it was an actual carb problem, something was done incorrectly in the "rebuilding" or installation process, either a missing check ball, spring or "o" ring, an incorrectly located fuel or air jet, torn gasket or diaphragm, mis-set float, a leaking inlet valve that was never checked, installing the right carb for the wrong application with the jetting being completely wrong, etc., etc..  

If I were starting from scratch with this car, I would either ignore everything that the prior owner says, or at least take it with a large measure of salt (more than a grain) and rely on what I actually see and find through testing. And be doing some of the basic catch up maintenance work as if it had not been done. Things such as checking very carefully for vacuum lines that may be loosely fitting, are cracked, missing or may have fallen off. And for sticking, (possibly dried out or rusty) linkages that effect the choke opening and the fast idle cam's movement. Also replacing lubricants, coolant, filters, checking for dragging brakes, checking tire condition, checking the steering, lubing u-joints, lubing accelerator and parking brake cables, etc., etc., etc. some of which you've already mentioned as having done.

He may be being perfectly honest and straight with you, but may have forgotten something relevant to the driveability issues you have; he may not be telling you the truth, either intentionally ommitting something that happened or telling you things that he says were done, and may not actually have been done; or some combination of the above.

Also after sitting for a significant period of time, some problems ARE more prone to show up. Rust to metal parts that have to slide against one another unlubed, rubber degradation, etc.  

And in this particular case, fuel may be being supplied in sufficient volume and quantity, but that doesn't address possible fuel QUALITY issues.
A fuel QUALITY related problem is reasonably likely if the gas that was in the tank when you bought the car had been in there for more than a few months. This would also jibe with some of the symptoms that you've listed.  

Some common possibilities include:  the fuel tank possibly having acquired a very large amount of water from condensation (this is more than likely if you have a loosely fitting or directly vented fuel cap), fuel tank or fuel line rust, or there being a significant amount of degraded or contaminated fuel remaining in the tank that simply has to work it's way out slowly by being diluted with fresher fuel.

Have you run a few tanks of gas through the car yet, or hasn't it been running well enough to do that? If you have NOT, I'd try to drain some of the old gas out of the tank into a clear glass container while vigorously shaking the vehicle to stir up anything that might be in the tank, such as water, rust and assorted crud, and compare what comes out visually and by smell to some fresh gas in another identical container, before starting to alter any adjustments.  I've had instances where it took 6 or more bottles of gas drier in a half tank of gas to absorb enough accumulated condensation in a fuel tank for an engine miss to mostly go away, and that on a car that was being reqularly driven!! (Mostly short trips, and they kept waiting for the tank to get very low before refilling). It may not be the answer in your case,  but it won't change or hurt anything to check the fuel.

Incidentally, I used to live near Chicago, (and now am about 600 miles south of there, so Winter isn't a big deal here, lucky us, but I sympathize), and up there, both condensation and carburetor icing was an ongoing battle that didn't get any better until gasohol was being widely used. It still happens, just not as serious a problem these days. The ethanol in gasohol serves the same purpose as the METHANOL in gas drier, both will mix with any water ipresent, and in any ratio, thus helping to disperse/dilute it within the rest of the fuel mixture.  With a milder Winter and the temperature crossing the dewpoint nearly every day even during Summer we still get condensation, possibly even more than up North, but with fuel injection on most newer cars, at least the carb icing is a thing of the past. 

Cookieboystoys

Bill, I only bypassed the fuel filter when checking for volume and pressure, fuel has never gone into the carb without going thru the filter first and I had plans of tapping lightly with my rubber mallet if I tried the "hammer" at all. I think it's a fuel problem myself but not sure if it's carb or pump related.

I don't think the choke works right when starting and it is a little sticky and doesn't close all the way... the reason for the hard starts. When I do get the choke to work the engine races to a very high rpm. When the pinto is warm the "Flapper" stays open and seems to work at that point. But I do have a slight miss at a stop and the idle is a little to high IMHO to keep the car running at a stop.

Tonight I hope to have time to recheck volume and pressure on the fuel pump with the car running, but I do not have a gauge to test the pump so I will have to go by what I see vs. actual #'s. I'm also gonna check for any vacume leaks I can find. I have checked the lines and all looked good but will recheck. I will also check the timing with a light if I can keep the pinto running.

Other than these things I don't know what else to check. Gut tells me it's the carb but the person who rebuilt the carb has a fantasic reputation and he doesn't think so. He will come to the house and check again but not for a day or two as he is busy. I should wait to see what he thinks but I'm impaient by nature and I want it fixed now... I don't have time for this crap. To many things need to be done before the snow starts and I'm running out of time.
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

77turbopinto

I have had them with OK pressure and low volume, but never the other way around.

With all your details the pump might be A problem, but I think your carb. might be the problem. You need VERY little gas to make the car idle, so if it can run above that indefinetly you might not have a pump related problem alone. It does not take much to plug a jet or air circit for the idle, and it could be the choke too. The hard starting sounds like a choke problem (choke won't come on). Having the engine intermitently cut out at higher speeds, and under heavy acceleration are the normal signs of a bad pump or vent (or the choke stuck on). The older cars have vent in the gas cap, if that gets plugged, or if you install a locking cap with no vent, you can get similar symptoms to what you have.

Test the pump, it might be a good idea to change it anyway if it is 30+ years old.

NEVER bypass a fuel filter to check it. I have re-built carbs for two friends after they did that.

Be very careful setting up a temporary gas tank. I have used a small lawn mower engine tank with an in-line shut off for this and I think it is MUCH safer than any other way or type.

If you hammer your carb. it is at your risk. I used a plastic hammer, but keep in mind the truck would not start (a different issue than yours) and I tested the pump with a gauge.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

Cookieboystoys

Thanks Bill and goodolboydws,

I'm still not sure what to think after reading all this. When we tried the test of the fuel pump I had the coil disconnected so the pinto wouldn't start. With my finger on the end of the hose as my son turned it over (a few times for 3-4 secs) I really couldn't feel any pressure. when I released my finger slowly fuel would squirt/mist out but not very much at all. But I do think it would be 1-2 psi if you wanted to look at it that way.

When we tried it without my finger blocking the hose it did spurt and spit but I kind of felt I was getting volume if not presure. In 3-4 seconds I would guess half a small shot glass of fuel came out. I would guess that if the car was running I would have no problem filling a cup at the very least after 30 seconds.

If the car had been running at the time I could see the rpm's of the motor giving a more consistant flow of fuel from the hose instead of spurting at the lower rpm's when tring to start but not running.

After reading what goodolboydws had to say I think I may be getting the volume but at very low pressure. I guess I would have to retest with the car running for better presure and volume. Based on what goodolboysdws suggest I think it would pass his requirements.

also should be noted... the pinto has a new fuel filter and during testing I tried with and without the filter. Rebuilt carb recently, and he reported the carb was in good shape and he didn't feel it needed to be replaced. I called to confirm that with him today. New plugs and wires, cap, rotor, points (couldn't find a condensor), oil change, thermostat and o-ring, timing belt, starter solenoid... what can I say, it's 33 years old with 90,000 + miles and sat for the last 4 years. Most of these items either needed to be replaced or was just a good idea because of cirsumstances and because I wanted to get intimate with the little pinto. Other than the carb work and installing/setting the points I wanted to do the work myself. I will need to take it in for a few other things like exhaust... just wanted to get it running right myself and to revisit basic pinto maintence 101. I do remember that my previous pinto's needed lots of little tweeks to keep em' running right

The pinto has had basicly the same problem thru this whole process... doesn't like to idle smooth. After all the above mentioned new parts and work I did have it running and idling ok if not good. Was hard to start and would die quickly when cold. 2-3 attempts before it would run and took about 45 seconds of reving up the motor to get it to idle on it's own. About 1.5 minutes I could drive off if I was careful. ran good about 4-5 blocks from home. I could drive it without killing at stop signs but had what I would call a throbbing idle. Would miss as it would idle and the fix seemed to be give it more gas and set the idle high. Ran smooth going down the highway and 30 miles per hour in town was smooth in 4 gear. Had no power in fourth but I could accelerate without it sounding funny or coughing. I did want to check the timing with a light (which I borrowed today but didn't use) but I think the timing is close. I played with that quite a bit and thru trial and error I could tell it was close if not dead on.

If I do end up swapping it out for a replacement fuel pump the price I was given was around $75.00 and would have to be special ordered and wait a few days/week. I agree with Bill and replacing with stock is prefered just easier that way but the electric pump is $35.00 for the pump and available today and cookieboy is impaient and almost willing to buy just to test.

I'm to tired to type anymore... time for bed. I'm gonna think on this again tomorrow and perhaps retest a few things, get out the hammer for the carb... and anything else I might think of...

Brian
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

goodolboydws

Cookieboy,

Most, if not all, mechanical fuel pumps DO "spit" out fuel in spurts, even when they are working perfectly. What you should primarily be measuring is the amount of fuel the pump pushes through the line in a given amount of time, and secondarily, the actual fuel pressure, so if you don't have a fuel pimp pressure gauge, don't sweat it, it probably won't be necessary. As a rough guide, if the fuel flow is more than VERY easy to stop when you put your thumb over the end of the hose, that should be plenty of pressure. 

Make sure that the carburetor is filled or dribble fuel into the engine by hand* if the carb will not fill, and run the engine for about 30 seconds with the fuel line emptying into a suitable container. If you get anything over a cup or 2 of fuel in 30 seconds, when the engine is running at idle speed, that will be way more than your particular engine can possibly use, as the fuel output increases with engine speed. 

If you DON'T get this volume, check the fuel filter first. Fuel filters on older cars may not have been changed in MANY, MANY years, and can easily be partially or even mostly blocked over time, especially if the car sits with a partial tank of fuel and without the fuel being replaced for long periods at a time.  To check for rust in the filter, after you take it out, try shaking it into a clear container so that the fuel comes out backwards of its normal flow. If there is much rust present it will be obvious, usually evidenced by an opaque rusty appearance, and may have a few larger rust flakes too.

The fuel pickup in the tank can be partially blocked as well, but it takes more accumulation of larger stuff to block that one to the point where it won't allow enough fuel to come through. It does happen sometimes though. 

Most production carbureted stock engines that are meant for street usage only will easily run on very low fuel pressures, even down to 1-2 PSI, as long as the fuel flow (or volume per unit of time) is adequate.  Higher speed requirements (such as racing)and unusual running conditions may warrant using a higher pressure fuel pump or pump setting, to INSURE that there is adequate volume coming through the original equipment small diameter supply lines, if they have not been upgraded.

And think about this: most carbureted engines do not have an independent  fuel pressure regulator, relying on the built in setting of most fuel pumps relief valves and their carbs only have a simple needle valve controlled by a gravity float.  When that carb float drops, there is virtually NO back pressure on the fuel pump, the gasoline has an extremely low viscosity, so it basically does not drag in the lines or drag significantly going through the pump, and the pump only has to overcome the minimal height difference that is involved in pulling the fuel from the tank and then pushing it into the carb.

Heck, many/most of the earliest cars made didn't even HAVE a fuel pump, but relied exclusively on gravity to feed the fuel into their carbs. (And Ford stayed with the gravity system longer than many others.)

*To do this, take a plastic soda bottle and use a heated needle to make a very small hole, somewhere near the top, then fill the bottle part way up with water. The hole size only has to be approximately the size of the primary fuel jet, so it should be less than 1/16" for this engine. Test the hole for a consistant, and easily directable stream before using gas, after all you don't want THAT spraying erratically near the engine. By squeezing the bottle you can regulate the flow and, especially if you have help, you should be able to keep the engine running.

77turbopinto

Test the pump with a gauge. The pick up screen or the filter could be clogged too. Pumps do wear out. (I have swapped a few).

Side note: My "yard truck" stopped running but with some spray it would run. I thought the pump was shot; it was not. After I checked and found it had good pressure I figured the float was stuck, so I hit the carb. with a hammer. VROOM.

IMHO: Stay with the stock mech. type if you can get one. Chances are you will never need to change it again.

You can wire in a stock Ford inertia switch, but it, AND the oil press. switch is better. If you are not sure about the wiring bring the car to a licensed repair facility.

If the older Pintos have the same ignition switch as the later ones you will have to run an electric pump from the pos. coil wire. The ignition switch is set up for 2 "run power" positions and that is the only circit that will have power in both key positions (on + start).

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

Cookieboystoys

yesterday the 73 pinto I have quit idleing correctly. I could keep it running but only at high RPM's.

Today I disconnected the fuel line after the pump and put my finger over it while my son turned the car over for a count of 3. No real preasure to speak of. When I removed my finger there was a little presure but not much. Next I put the fuel line in a container and had my son turn the car over again for 3 seconds and fuel just kind of "spit" out of the line in spurts... sounds like a bad fuel pump to me.

So anyhow went looking for parts and again... special order and hard to find, will take a few days.

Cookieboy not happy  :( I hate trying to find parts for this little pinto

I did however get a suggestion... install an electric fuel pump. Looks easy but unsure where to tap into for power. I wonder if the power wire for the coil would work and would it cause problems if I did. Also the kit refers to a oil shut off unit so that if the motor quits the pump will stop pumping and that makes me wonder if I don't install the shut off unit and the pump still pumps without the car running will that be a problem?

any help, tips or suggestions would be welcome.

Thanks Brian
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!