Mini Classifieds

'78 Pinto Windshield Trim
Date: 05/09/2017 10:46 am
Pinto Watch

Date: 06/22/2019 07:12 pm
1978 Squire wagon 6 Cly
Date: 02/16/2020 05:42 pm
SEARCHING HOPELESSLY
Date: 02/02/2017 07:21 am
1978 pinto grill
Date: 07/24/2018 02:18 pm
1979/80 Pinto needs to be saved
Date: 09/10/2018 10:41 pm
Mini Mark IV one of 2 delux lg. sunroof models
Date: 06/18/2018 03:47 pm
1976 (non hatchback) pinto (90% complete project)

Date: 07/10/2016 10:17 am
4 speed pinto transmission

Date: 05/13/2021 05:29 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
  • Total Members: 7,895
  • Latest: tdok
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,584
  • Total Topics: 16,270
  • Online today: 506
  • Online ever: 3,214 (June 20, 2025, 10:48:59 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 392
  • Total: 392
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Cant get 74 Wagon to run.

Started by pintoguy76, August 15, 2006, 12:09:30 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

pintoguy76

See new topic. The engine blows zero compression on cylinder #1, and 115 PSI on 2, 3 and 4. I would think the engine would start and run, just run like crap. It will once in a while start, but wont stay running more than a second or two and thats with my foot to the floor.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

I think there may be an internal engine problem. The engine does not sound the same as it does on my other pinto and they have the same engine. It sounds as tho it does not have any compression. Ive felt  air blow out of the #1 cylinder but when i stick my finger on the hole and crank it i never feel it blow against my hand and it will not pump up on a compression check. However. The compression tester i bought was very cheap ($5) at harbor freight and it could just be a chinese made (c)HEAP. I'm gonna run a compression test with it on my other pinto and it runs so i know it has compression . That will tell me if the guage is bad or if its the engine.  I know the belt is on correctly and it wouldnt pump up even when i aligned the timing marks on the cam and the pointer for the cam, and that should be set for compression stroke on cyl 1 (both valves closed) . So its sounding to me like i have a compression problem, likly in the head. Does anyone else agree? The 2.3 engine is not an interferece engine, so cranking it with a broken or missing timing belt will not bend valves or damage pistons. The only thing i can think of that would caus me problems is if maybe theres some broken valve springs or something.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

goodolboydws

cookieboy said it. 


Points type ignition systems are a world unto themselves and if you have no basic understanding as to how to install  and set the points and why certain things have to be done or avoided, you will have no end of ignition related problems that seem to be unsolvable. 

In a nutshell, modern electronic ignitions are mostly drop it in, bolt it down, if it fits, it works, and they generally either work fine or don't work at all, while points ignitions require very precise setting to work even ADEQUATELY, much less well, and will gradually change performance as the points themselves physically deteriorate over time. That's why they are almost extinct. To perform well, they require careful and (relative to electronic ign.) frequent attention, and few people have the time, tools, knowledge or interest in maintaining them.

Do some serious reading to find out how points type ignition systems work in general, then read up on how YOURS is supposed to be set up. It's not really DIFFICULT to do, but it does require basic knowledge.

joecool85

You could work with the points/condensor as that is probably your issue, OR you could just replace it with an electronic ignition from a newer 2.3, thats what I recommend.  There are a few threads on it if you search.
Life is what you make it.
http://www.thatraymond.com

TIGGER

It is possible that the points are not set properly or the condensor is bad.  I would replace the condensor regardless as they can cause wierd problems when they go bad.  They are cheap, like $3-$5.  unit I always kept a spare condensor in my Mustang.  The point gap or dwell does affect the ignition timing.  You need to make sure the dwell (point gap) is set properly before you adjust the timing with a timing light.  To adjust the points you will need a feeler gauge and a flat screw driver and a remote starter. Take the cap and rotor off the car and bump the engine till the rub block of the points is on one of the corners of the shaft.  Resting the rub block on the corner should open up the points.  With them open, inspect the points for pitting and uneven wear.  If they look too bad, replace them and the condensor before continuing.  If they look ok, take the feeler gauge and check the gap according to the spec.  If there too tight or loose, then using the screw driver, adjust them accordingly.  Once you have the screw tightened, I like to crank the engine over and check them again before reinstalling the cap and rotor.  If they check out accordingly, I install the cap and rotor and start the car and check the dwell with the engine running using a dwell meter.  My 67 Mustang always had a dwell range of 37-42.  It always ran the best being set at 39.  I recommend to eventually swaping to electronic ignition.  I swapped to a pertronix unit in my Mustang 10 years ago and have not had a problem.  At the time, points were about 10 bucks a pop and I would replace them about once a year to keep the car running top notch.  Hopefully your points are causing you the problems.  Remember to set the dwell before you set the timing.  Good luck!
79 4cyl Wagon
73 Turbo HB
78 Cruising Wagon (sold 8/6/11)

Cookieboystoys

learn points... made a world of difference w/my car (73 Runabout)
It's all about the Pintos! Baby!

pintoguy76

I took delivery of my 74 wagon today (2.3L) and spent a few hours trying to make it run. It started for a second and that was it. It tries alot to start but just wont do it. It acts as tho the timing is off. I know the timing belt was off and the previous owner retimed it and said it was in time. I looked and i think the cam was 180 off so i retimed the whole thing (ive done this before, so surly i did it right this time? i mean i made it work without any problems before on another 2.3 pinto) and it seems better but still wont start. It really acts as tho its off time. backfiring thru carb, cranking and stoping....cranking and stopping... depending on how i have the whole thing timed (i keep changing things around thinking maybe ive done something wrong, tho i dont think so. id swear its right, as it is now!) It has a new carburetor on it, and it appears to be getting fuel (as it is backfiring from the carb and the float bowl is full) and ive checked spark, the test light i bought (inserts between plug and wire and has a bulb in it) seems real dim, but then its a points type ignition, they dont have the hottest spark to begin with) but it does have fire. This is all pretty apparent since it does try to start just doesnt succeed. Everything acts as tho its off time but id swear it is not! I lined up the timing pointers below the cam pulley and ON the cam pulley, set #1 piston at TC on compression stroke, adjusted the aux. shaft pulley to where the ignition rotor is set to fire the #1 plug, and then slipped the belt on right there and tightened it down. Never seems to improve no matter how many times i do and re-do that. Now then. It is a points type, being a 74 model. The only year of the 2.3 to ever get points. I know nothing about points. Is it possible the points arent set right or something? It looks as tho theres some new parts there in the distributor, the points parts...(dont know what they are called). The only thing i can think to do now is just keep retiming in, in case maybe im not getting it at TDC on the compression stroke... tho i feel a good burst of air shoot out the spark plug hole. Ive checked and rechecked and rechecked the firing order (1342), making sure i dont have it set to fire backwards (made that mistake before!). I'm just at a loss. Anyone got any ideas?
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E