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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

knife egding cranks

Started by profit, July 02, 2006, 08:48:42 AM

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profit

going through my records when I weighed my car it had already been put on a diet most of the trim was removed, alloy wheels, and alloy bellhousing. From fractory useing fords specs it would have started life at 2160lb mine weighed 1900lb when it was put on the scales and I reduced it to 1720 by fitting the fiberglass panels plexi glass windows and modifying the doors. The 1400lb figure is what I belive I can get the new car to weigh my mistake. Must be wishfull thinking.

Srt

all that work?  i think you should rethink EVERYTHING
the only substitute for cubic inches is BOOST!!!

turbopinto72

Thanks, I did look on that site and found a 1969 Capri 1300 that was 2017 lbs. I was not successful in finding any in the 1900 lbs range.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

77pintocw

Hey turbopinto72:

Go to the following site:

http://www.carfolio.com/search/results/?terms=capri

Click on the Capri year you are interested in and they give weights in kgs and lbs.

Hope this helps!

77pintocw
1977, Pinto Cruising Wagon, White with Blue Graphics

turbopinto72

I did a little searching around and could not verify the weight of a Capri. I did find some Capri's that weighed in at around 2,300 lbs. Is there a site I can go to, to find this information?
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

profit

ford capri powered by a ford 2ltr S.O.H.C
standard car weighs around 1900lb depending on options

turbopinto72

Quote from: profit on July 13, 2006, 05:13:01 PM
Hi Cheapracer
I am now where near you so unfortunatly you cant see my car but I could e-mail you some pics.
The heaver flywheel and clutch will help launch a heavy car but would also hurt acceleration latter on after the 60ft mark. My car 60fts in 2.1sec and weighs 1400lb I think I can easily reduce that by another 200lb on the new car if it does not have to go round corners. So launching a 1200lb car should not be a problem. If it boggs down off the line I can always pump up the slick to loose some traction on the launch to get the revs up.

Is this a Pinto you are talking about? 1400 lbs???
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

profit

Hi Cheapracer
I am now where near you so unfortunatly you cant see my car but I could e-mail you some pics.
The heaver flywheel and clutch will help launch a heavy car but would also hurt acceleration latter on after the 60ft mark. My car 60fts in 2.1sec and weighs 1400lb I think I can easily reduce that by another 200lb on the new car if it does not have to go round corners. So launching a 1200lb car should not be a problem. If it boggs down off the line I can always pump up the slick to loose some traction on the launch to get the revs up.

CHEAPRACER

Where are you located? I also tried the n/a 2.3 drag car thing and if you're somewhere close to me then I'd like to see this. 2nd, My opinion would be a heavier crank, flywheel & clutch assy be much better on getting a 4 cylinder to launch hard especially with slicks and the stronger 5 speed would be the way to go, I've drove the c-4 auto behind a warmed over 2.0 fiberglass bodied drag roadster and unless you can find someone to build you a converter to stall at some serious rpm then it sucks on launch unless you're running nitrous or a turbo. Yea it was more consistant but what a dog. A five speed (using 4 gears of course) can be very consistent but when I used to street race my SVO (yes we were all stupid at one time or another in our younger years) it was common for me to miss third gear. I blamed it on short arms and Ford had not yet angled that shifter slightly back yet in '84.
Turbo coupe 5 speed (lower 1st gear ratio), a good clutch, 8inch rear, slicks and 6,000 rpm launch on the 2 step will do it just fine. And don't forget a good driveshaft, that's what ended my car's life.
Cheapracer is my personality but you can call me Jim '74 Pinto, stock 2.3 turbo, LA3, T-5, 8" 3:55 posi, Former (hot) cars: '71 383 Cuda, 67 440 Cuda, '73 340 Dart, '72 396 Vega, '72 327 El Camino, '84 SVO, '88 LX 5.0

profit

I hear what your saying. There were about 60 cars in the over 11 second bracket. my reaction time varied from .5194 to .6931 most runs were a .5???
barometric pressure and tempetature differences did not seem to affect the car or me greatly althought the faster a car is the more this will come into play. I have not changed jets with the car running so consistant I did not want to chase a better ET I just wanted to keep doing what I had heen doing all day.but it is something I will try when the new car goes out on methanol as I will be using the time card to tune.
Thanks for the tips goodolboydws
I am getting a crank balanced then I am going to modify it and then take it back to see how much the balance has changed and if it can be corrected if it can I will move on to the next part of the build.

goodolboydws

You done good.

Only .0286 of a second as a breakout at your experience level and your car's present level of performance is really doing well. As is the .4 seconds spread between fastest and slowest times, with runs covering the entire day and the changing track conditions.

Some standard guidelines to keep in mind:

Cooler air temp.=more dense air=more oxygen per unit volume.
Warmer air temp.=less dense air=less oxygen per unit volume.

As altitude above sea level increases, air density decreases.
As altitude above sea level decreases, air density increases.

As barometric pressure increases, air density increases.
As barometric pressure decreases, air density decreases.

Pump gas density is less affected by small air temperature changes than is air, but it also follows the same density to temperature pattern...

This is why serious racers/tuners running carbs GENERALLY keep many sets of carburetor jets on hand, to be able to more closely tailor the engines' performance to the existing conditions.

That brings up another point.
Have you yet attempted switching main fuel jets while doing sets of successive runs at the same track, to see just how well you have estimated the engines' fuel and air mix needs for those precise conditions?  Also, many more cars are significantly OVER carbureted than you might expect, and this can make a serious difference in final run times, as well as in fuel mileage/efficiency.

If you're not already doing so, try to keep as detailed a record of all your runs and the existing car and track conditions as you can, (track info such as : air temp./ humidity/ barometric pressure/altitude/wind speed & direction/track surface condition, etc.) so that when either you change something, or the track conditions change, you will have a baseline for different conditions and equipment used, and better know what to watch for in future runs.

Only .0286 of a second as a breakout at your experience level and your car's present level of performance is really doing well. As is the .4 seconds spread between fastest and slowest times.

Are you keeping track of how much your initial reaction time is varying?

For many folks, this is one of the biggest, hardest to control variables in the mix, and just .03 seconds difference SLOWER as an initial reaction time, tire slippage, clutch slippage, or anywhere in the shifting, (or a .03 sec shorter target time) is all that it would have taken to have made a win out of the example that you listed. The best bracket racers are those who may not have the fastest reaction times, but have the most CONSISTANT reaction times.

Controlling and varying that small and precise of an amount of time difference as in your listed run time (.03 sec) is basically impossible to intentionally or consistently achieve in the human-being-involved-part of racing while doing several sets of widely time spaced series of complex sequential motion tasks, such as those that are involved in an initial reaction to the tree for launch, and then shifting multiple times. 


That other guy sounds like a pro with him having a run of only a .0096 second over at 11.20.

profit

I understand replacing the weekest link in the chain I have been circuit racing for about 12 years now and have decided I want to do some drag racing for a change. The body deadener has been removed and the battery is located to the passenger side rear of the car. Glass fenders and doors will be fitted to the new car. Last time at the track I ran 9 passes from 10:00am to about 8:30pm and they were all within .4 of each other reasonably consistant for a manual transmition. Its all about the driving for me I got a lot of respect for being able to change gears consistantly. Made it to the semifinal and broke out with 0.5194 reaction time 14.4714 ET on a 14.50 dail in to the other guys .5643 reaction time 11.2096 ET on a 11.20 dail in. I guess the car started to run a bit better in the night air and with my inexperience I did not think to lift the foot even though I was in front and I broke out . Thats racing it was close and good racing.

goodolboydws

It looks as if you've got most of the first level, body related go faster items covered.

If you haven't done it yet, you could strip off any undercoating and sound proofing, and acid dip the fenders and doors or switch to fiberglass fenders.

You didn't mention it, but relocating the battery to the trunk is commonly done if you still need to lighten the front end more.

2 things that you said struck me as being areas to investigate for possible improvement.

You say that you are crossing the line "in forth right where the peak power occurs.."

It's hard to judge, because a lot of things are happening simultaneously in the 1/4 and your adrenaline is going, but you may well be allowing the engine to reach it's power peak too late for the best run times. This would not be uncommon. With many cars, for best times, due to inertial effects on the car itself,  the engine is actually reaching peak power level in the last gear that you are using, somewhat before crossing the line.

After all, the more time that you spend at the far end of the track AT the engines' power peak rather than still climbing TO it from below it, the better in this case, and most engine cam power peaks have a somewhat sinewave pattern at the top end, that while it will have a true peak,  also has some width to it where the power curve mostly flattens out just before and after the peak.

Next,
Depending upon your engines' power band overall shape and width, you may be able to use a 3 speed transmission (or only 3 of your current transmissions' forward gears), probably picking up some time from shifting 1 less time. Most people cannot shift a manual transmission 3 times in a quarter mile run without losing a significant amount of time in the process, as compared to shifting twice with a 3 speed, (or using only 3 forward gears of your current 4-speed transmission, (with a taller rear end ratio, for example), but your engine has to have a wider power band to cover the greater range of engine speeds for this to work.

Next, for consistency, a true, high stall speed, racing automatic transmission is probably something that you should look into, if not with this car, then the next one. Manual shifting cannot equal such a unit for CONSISTANCY, especially if you end up in bracket racing, it's just too easy to break out with a manual.

Having more consistancy from the transmission removes shifting glitches and differing amounts of clutch slippage due to temperature and humidity changes at the track as factors,  and anytime that you can remove a variable factor from the combination that you are running, it helps to pinpoint what mods made AFTERWARDS work.

Once you have a machine basically set up for the intended purpose, if you then make successive changes to a vehicle that is being measured for performance, such as speed or both speed and ET in the 1/4, you should attempt to make only one change at a time whenever possible, and then retest the vehicle, to see if the modification is actually helping (theoretical improvements do not always translate into faster times), and if the change does help, to then determine if it was cost effective for the improvement gained.

By the way, as your engines' power level increases past a certain point over the starting point for the engine on a production car, the typical scenario is that whatever is the weakest link in the power transmission chain will break. Then the next weakest part after the first failed part is replaced. As you continue to break things, eventually all of the first set of parts will have been replaced. Then the entire process repeats itself. This includes u-joints, driveshafts, clutches, transmission mainshafts, rear end pinion/ ring gear sets, axle shafts, etc.

This is because (in most instances), as a means of keeping prices down and profitability up, the auto makers of the Pinto era designed in only a relatively small safety overload factor and a very large per part cost factor, for most power related parts., so the quality of the parts used is not very consistant from one part to a different part in the power train.  The good news is that some Ford rear ends, (like the 9" you may end up with), are among the strongest made in that era, and they are readily available in many gear set ratios. 

Current carmakers do the same thing, but the overall quality bar has been raised considerably in the intervening years, and so has the level of testing, so many of the current production cars have even more closely matched, better optimized power trains.   

So if there are any remaining original parts in your drivetrain, expect them to be among the first failures as you climb the power ladder.



profit

good to get some great feed back and thanks goodolboydws for your input I have optimised a lot of the vehicle in the ways you have mentioned some are out of my budget range but the things I can do my self I have done. My conrod and piston assembly weighs in at 12oz less than the standard components each. I have used a lightened standard flywheel, a light steel flywheel and now I am going to use a low moment of inertia design it weighs just over 7lb. Cam valves and induction have been have well tested and produce good reliable power. An electric fan is used and larger pulleys fitted. the wet sump employs crank scrapper and windage tray and a gate baffle system. the differentail is locked. gearing is acceptable as it cross's the line at 6000rpm in 4th right where peak power occurs. rear tyre size works with the gearing and 10 to 12 psi See's very little wheel spin front runners are inflated tight . The car has plexi glass windows fibreglass hood and trunk lightened front suspension, racing fuel cell has been fitted, inner trim has been removed and numerous other things which has resulted in the car being 400lb lighter. The engine has been moved back 12" and sits 3" lower in the car. Last time out it ran 14.47 at 96mph not fast by any means. So I am building another car lighter and hopefully faster. which means I need to loose some more fat and improve where HP is lost I just want to minimise my losses. the new car I believe I can get down to 1200lb the engine will run on methanol injection. I will fit an electric water pump with more power gear ratio will need to be altered to suit. Aerodynamics and down force is some thing I will be looking into the car is about 3" lower so thats a start. if there is any other area you believe I have over looked just let me know and I will start doing my home work.

77turbopinto

Quote from: profit on July 04, 2006, 09:34:27 AM
turbopinto72 you have the same opinions as other's. I believe you are looking at it from the wrong perspective...

I could not resist.

+14U

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

turbopinto72

Thanks for the input Bill. You are an asset to this board.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

77turbopinto

Quote from: turbopinto72 on July 03, 2006, 06:37:38 PM
Well, I don't think you really need to " knife edge" your crank per-se unless your going to spin the the motor past 8k. If you are going to spin the motor past 8k then you could knife edge the crank but you will need to get it re balanced. The knife edging is done to the outside main barring lobes of the crank ( one at each end and two in the center.) Each lobe has material removed at both "ends" leaving the middle of the lobe alone. Some times this removes the holes where the crank was originally balanced. If you started in the middle of the lobe and left about 2 inches, then drew a line on both sides of the lobe to the end ( or outside) of both sides of the lobe along the "top" of the lobe, you would remove that "triangle" piece of crank lobe. As you travel down from the top of the lobe to the Bering surface it would look like it had about 1 1/2 " of " knife blade" starting at the top , then it would "fatten up as it transitioned into the fillet area of the crank Bering surface ( which is the weakest link on any crank). OR, you could buy an Esslinger ADI crank that is allready light AND knife edged.

I could not agree more.

IF you get an alum. flywheel you can remove more off the rotating mass. I have driven cars with them and for the street they are not fun. Another thing you can do is POLISH the crank, but again it WILL need to be re-balanced.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

goodolboydws

I have to side with turbopinto on this one profit, unless you have awfully deep pockets.

Lightening the crank considerably this way and then probably having to significantly lighten the pistons and rods to bring the entire reciprocating package back into balance will probably  mean having to replace those parts with stronger and lighter aftermarket or custom parts anyway.  After that, what's next besides more relatively expensive engine work?

There are a lot of cheaper and basic alternatative ways to improve the vehicle other than engine work, to easily gain more acceleration that, by your posts, seems paramount to you. And yet still have a very streetable vehicle. Of course, these can be done in conjunction with the engine work too, to compound gains.

For example, do you already have an electric engine cooling fan? Have you removed all un necessary engine power robbing accessories, such as the a/c? Switched to larger diameter pulleys to reduce the speed and drag of accessories at higher engine speeds? Have a dry sump/remote oiling system to eliminate typical oil drag on the crank yet? Are you using low viscosity, synthetic oil?  Has the car already gone through a lightening process to reduce the total vehicle weight? Less weight will always translate into faster acceleration, as long as the wheel spin from tire slip is controlled. Do you have a limited slip differential? Do you have wide enough soft compound tires to maximize takeoff? Do you use high pressure in the front tires to reduce rolling frictional losses? How about custom tunable shocks front and rear to optimize weight transfer? Has the rear end ratio been optimized for maximum acceleration in the qtr, as that seems to be your yardstick for comparison? Has the front to rear weigh bias been addressed to improve rear wheel traction? Has the cars' areodynamic coefficient been improved over the stock value yet? Has the rear wheel downforce at speed been addressed yet? Etc., etc., etc.


turbopinto72

Quote from: profit on July 04, 2006, 09:34:27 AM
turbopinto72 you have the same opinions as other's. I believe you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Knife edging /Lightening the crank will make the motor more responsive and faster to accelerate I do not want to necessarily gain power but gain acceleration. Most performance vehicles are used in the acceleration mode so I believe there's a gain from 1k right through the rev range. this gain may  be minimal but definitely measurable over the quarter mile.
What do you mean wrong perspective? You asked a question and I tryed to answer it. I gave you 1) my opinion, 2) I did my best to answer your question and 3 ) a way to get what you need with out having to do the work your self. Last, you did not ever say what your intentions for doing this was, so how can you say I am looking at it from the "wrong perspective?" If you are looking for acceleration, I have yet another perspective. Use Aluminum rods and an aluminum flywheel and also a roller cam. There, thats 1 way to " make the motor more responsive". You original post never said you " wanted to gain acceleration". So I tried to answer your question. Now, your last post said " 1/4" mile, may I assume you are building a car for the 1/4 track?
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

profit

turbopinto72 you have the same opinions as other's. I believe you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Knife edging /Lightening the crank will make the motor more responsive and faster to accelerate I do not want to necessarily gain power but gain acceleration. Most performance vehicles are used in the acceleration mode so I believe there's a gain from 1k right through the rev range. this gain may  be minimal but definitely measurable over the quarter mile.

turbopinto72

Well, I don't think you really need to " knife edge" your crank per-se unless your going to spin the the motor past 8k. If you are going to spin the motor past 8k then you could knife edge the crank but you will need to get it re balanced. The knife edging is done to the outside main barring lobes of the crank ( one at each end and two in the center.) Each lobe has material removed at both "ends" leaving the middle of the lobe alone. Some times this removes the holes where the crank was originally balanced. If you started in the middle of the lobe and left about 2 inches, then drew a line on both sides of the lobe to the end ( or outside) of both sides of the lobe along the "top" of the lobe, you would remove that "triangle" piece of crank lobe. As you travel down from the top of the lobe to the Bering surface it would look like it had about 1 1/2 " of " knife blade" starting at the top , then it would "fatten up as it transitioned into the fillet area of the crank Bering surface ( which is the weakest link on any crank). OR, you could buy an Esslinger ADI crank that is allready light AND knife edged.
Brad F
1972, 2.5 Turbo Pinto
1972, Pangra
1973, Pangra
1971, 289 Pinto

profit

thanks Pintony the search engine on this forum brings up nothing
I have found a little info in the net but not much directly relating to pinto motors.

Pintony

Type the info into your browser.

You are sure to find the answer...

From Pintony

profit


Pintony

Hello Profit,
Unless you are a serious racer? the kife edging is totally un-nessessary.
7500+ rpm only.
From Pintony

profit

any one done knife edging to there crankshaft if so would you care to share, pics, instructions, how much metal to remove where to remove it
is it as simple as putting it in a lathe and spinning of the excess materail