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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Pinto missfiring on the highway.

Started by pintoguy76, December 19, 2005, 10:25:37 PM

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dirt track demon

Well, if you dont get all that rust cleaned out of your fuel tank, you aren't going to have to worry about it.  You already stated that you were finding peices of rust in the float bowl.  What do you think that stuff does to your cylinder walls, and piston rings. Let alone your valve seats.   :idea:
Favorite place to race:on the xbox

Fomoco's biggest achievement:
The PINTO!!

Fomoco's biggest mistake:
Not offering a V-8 Pinto!!!!!!!

pintoguy76

I replaced the entire distributor and it ended my problem. Even brought back a little power. I had to try two distributors.....the first one was fine for a day or two...the second one has been in since the day after the first new one quit (i put the first one in on the 18th of january) and so far havnt had anymore problems. However. The gap between the armature and stator on my old distributor is very very close......the gap on the new one is a TON bigger on the old one, and the new one has a larger gap at the top than at the bottom (or maybe its the other way around, i forget now). Either way it doesnt look right. Should i be concerned with this? I mean, afterall it is what tells the coil to fire...i dont want my car to come in on the tow truck AGAIN because of this freggin distributor...
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

I'm not going quite to the show car look on this car but i will make it really nice looking. I tested the fuel pressure today and it was 7 psi at the carburetor. Thats actually a hair on the high side. It needs only 4 to 6 psi.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

STpinto

I don't know about up/down movement. Some may allowable?  :-\ But I know there is a gas tank repair person out there, he's kind of expensive but guarantees his work--he' in Kentucky I believe. It's been a while since I got his info, if I find it I will forward it.  Unless you have major rust-holes you probably need to get it boiled out, ask the guy who does it to stomp most of the dent out if he can.  Some shops can take apart the tanks to do this repair.  Unless you are going for a show car look!
Keep on Keepin on

pintoguy76

I dont think that stuffs ever been replaced on mine. LOL. A new distributor would have all that new in it right? I checked for play on the distributor already, i dont beleive there was any front to back movement of the shaft but it would move up and down probably a 16th or an 8th of an inch. I'm thinking about a new distributor anyways. I think i looked and a new dizzy was like $46? Thats not too bad.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

STpinto

You should just replace those, if you haven't done it in the last couple years. One thing you should do is check distributer play. Take the cap off and push on the shaft, back and forth, see if there is any play. If you get ANY play you rebuild or buy a re-built distributer. Just a tiny amount of movement can give bad fire. There is no allowance for movement at all.
Keep on Keepin on

pintoguy76

I know theres all kinds of rust in the tank, i dump all kinds of rust out of the fuel filters every time i change them.  I also find it in the bottom of the float bowl of the carb too (how it gets thru TWO fuel filters ill never know, but it does) altho its not thick enough in the bottom that it gets up into the small jets in the bottom/side of the float bowl. I really need a new tank, as mine is pushed up in the bottom....i guess somone backed into something and it hit the tank and bent the bottom of it in. Happened before i got the car. Anyways i guess it needs boiled out  because i know theres tons of stuff in the tank. But, it doesnt seem to be restricting flow any, i mean the volume was great...even without the pump....it flowed really well by gravity. When i took the line loose from behind the pump (electic pump, close to the tank) to replace the filter that is attached to the rear of the pump. It flowed fuel like crazy. i had to put a plug in it because it wouldnt stop lol. I did have the tank off before, thinking i had a fuel line blockage only to find out everything was clear. I tried then to remove the sending unit to remove the sock but i had no sucess. I assume no one makes a new pinto fuel tank anymore? LOL. (i sure cant find one). If i have to use a fuel cell can i keep my fuel guage and keep it working? Anyone done this? Anways this is a little off topic since i think this has nothing to do with my problem. But its an idea, kinda spawned off my problem. Somone suggestd the pickup coil in the distributor and the stator/armature could be bad or out of adjustment. Does this sound like it could cause the problem?
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

STpinto

I'd like to say that  statement is true, but if you assume that, it might lead you astray. Adequate  fuel at idle may fall way off at high speed. So it is best to know what your pressure is--a fuel pressure regulator might be a way to find out about your  fuel pressure, see how it affect performance. They aren't too expensive and you can use them in other vehicles too. I really don't think that is your problem though. :-\
Here's a quick and dirty way to find out about your fuel tank cleanliness- if you have access to an air compressor,  get a garden hose and a wet red mechanic rag. Put the hose in the gas tank to the bottom of the tank, cram the rag in around it to seal it up the best you can, and then stick the air hose nozzle in next to the rag, tightly as you can get it, and apply some air pressure. If you have a clean towel or white rag of some sort wrapped around the other end of the hose and in a catch bucket, you can get a real good idea about how clean the gas is. When you stop applying the air pressure, the fuel stops. Look and see if you have rust or debris particles floating around. DANGER!!! Take all precautions to keep ignition sources away from the are while you do this! Obviously, if your clean catch rag has debris in it, then do yourself a favor and have your tank boiled out. This method sure beats having to pull the tank if it isn't necessary.
Keep on Keepin on

pintoguy76

I changed to bosch platnum spark plugs today and it made no difference. Does seem to idle smoother tho. Honestly i didnt check the fuel pressure, only the volume, when i checked on the pump. If the volume is fine can the presure still be low and will that cause the problem im having ?
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

Yeah ive seen the little numbers before. i want to say they both said 22 on them but im thinking they were 32 and 36. Not sure.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

STpinto

Hey I should have mentioned you can get the tiny numbers off the jets when you have them out next time,, and find out what size was originally in it. At this rate you might as well get some wingnuts for the carb and other pieces!  You ought to know that carb really well by now. :embarrassed:
Everyone is going to have some suggestions for you, you just have to wade through them all. By that time you should have a new engine, carb, fuel system and electrical. :D
Keep on Keepin on

pintoguy76

The cone shaped fuel was coming out of the venturi (the round thing in the middle of the barrel, atleast thats what i think is the venturi) and a steady stream was coming out of the nozzle for the accelerator pump. The cone shape  and the stream from the pump nozzle are consistand while the speed is held consistant at 3000 rpm or so. It looks right, but im just trying to make sure that i havnt got a high float. I may recheck that tomorrow. The coil i tested right in autozones parking lot after i went in and bought the tester. Drove the car over there so it should have been hot. The carb jets i removed today and checked them for blockage. Everything seemed to be ok. Delco plugs is what i have in this thing and im not impressed so i am going back to the bosch's. Ive never rejetted the carb, even after removal of the EGR. So it should be the same as the factory installed. I also checked for blockage in/around the needle/seat by removing it and making sure it was all clean.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

STpinto

OK, you might find a little success with your adjustments, but remember your float adjustments are really for starting and idle. If you float is too low, it will die when you lift off the gas for a stop sign. The reservoir of fuel that is controlled by the float is for instantaneous response when you gas it, your accelerator pump is right there for that reason. And yes, when the accelerator pump is doing its job, it shoots out a cone shape, easy to atomize spray into the air stream of the intake.
And your coil sounds like it might be ok, but how you find out is let it warm up and see if you still get the blue spark. If it turn yellow, you know the coil is bad, under heat.
Keep messing with the float, and make sure your gaskets are all still good. Also,, one way to check plugs for high speed condition- clean your plugs, then warm up the car,, and take it out about as fast as it will go for several miles, then kill the ignition push your clutch in and let it coast to a stop. When you pull the plugs then, you will have a snapshot of their true high speed condition. Be sure and don't lock up the steering though when you turn off the engine.
Bosch plugs are good in Fords, and also Autolite, but stay away from Delco and Champion, they have a very short life in a Ford for some reason.
You said the car used to run great, so I'm guessing the carb jets are the same ones in it now as when it ran well, so you may have some debris in the jets, or a bent needle.
You have been very good at checking this all out, I know its about licked ;D keep us informed.
Keep on Keepin on

crazyhorse

I too had this problem with my '74 when i got it. It turned out that the pickup "sock" in the tank was stopped up with rust. I could motor around all day in town, but as soon as I'd pulled 3-4 miles on the hwy it'd bog & pop. Have you checked the tank? Is it rusty inside? That'd also tell why you were ruining mech. fuel pumps. Rust has a way of building up in the lines & filters.
How to tell when a redneck's time is up: He combines these two sentences... Hey man, hold my beer. Hey y'all watch this!
'74 Runabout, stock 2300,auto  RIP Darlin.
'95 Olds Gutless "POS"
'97 Subaru Legacy wagon "Kat"

pintoguy76

I raised the float a little on the carb and screwed the mixture adjustment screw in the base of the carb out one full turn. It did better i think but still wouldnt come above 60mph in 3rd gear (4500 rpm) then it started acting up, not anywhere near as bad but it still did. I think the float is too high now but im not sure. When looking down the throat of the carb and revving the motor (2500 to 3000 rpm id guess) i can see fuel spraying like a TBI unit.  In a cone shape. Is that normal? I dont see any fuel spilling over the top, into the jets on the top of the carb body, or anything close the the gasket level so i think it is ok. I tested the spark with a tester from autozone tonite. It clamps on the block, and the plug or coil wire plugs into the other end. it allows you to adjust the distance for the spark to gap and tells you how far it needs to be set at for each application. For duaraspark its was like a 30mm or something like that... its got a lil guage in the bottom so you can tell where its at. Anyways i set it where it was supposed to be and from the coil wire it jumped a nice big blue spark about an inch or so long (however long 30mm is). Id say the coil is fine. I also bought 4 new bosch platnum spark plugs. I know alot of people say not to use them but i have AC delcos in now,  and ive had alot of problems with delco plugs latly. The platnums always seem to work fine in 4  cylinders for me, but they zoop in V6's and V8's that ive tried them in. Kinda odd, anyways theyve always worked great in my 2.3s and the 2.5 gm that i had before so im going back to them. I'll keep you all informed. thx again for your help.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

pintoguy76

I left the jets alone, tho somone said i needed to lean it out because the egr is gone. Sounds like I might have hit the jackpot. I'll try the mixture adjustment and then the carb gasket. Thanks!
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

STpinto

Could be. You should be getting a tan -light tan look on your plugs, not white. That is classic "lean". You can burn your pistons if you run like that.Did you change the jets on your carb, or needles? Because if you leave the stock jets and needles in it, it is usually close enough to run. And you never step more than two sizes in any direction when you change them.
Sound like someone tried to maximize economy and got carried away. You may have  the solution.. :)
Keep on Keepin on

pintoguy76

I'll check that. I think i kinda remember what your talking about. Somone also suggested the mixture adjustment could be too lean. Could this be possible? I pulled the spark plugs and they all 4 have a little white ash looking substance on them. But they look good. Does this say anything?
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

dirt track demon

It hit me when you said you rebuilt the carb.  the gasket for the cover that goes over the float bowl.  The gasket kits dont contain the correct gasket for some models of carb. the gasket needs to be trimmed around where the float sits. I had the same problems you are describing it drove me nuts. The gasket wont let the float work right, some days it would work fine some days it wouldn't. Like you said it would run perfect just sitting there, i could dead rev it, fine, i could putt around with it, fine. I could open it up for a little while, fine. then when I would really get on it, it would cough and sputter and everything you described. until i slowed back down, then it would run again.   
  It was that top gasket(runs the whole way around the top of the carb).  When i first rebuilt the carb, it worked great, but as time went on the gasket got stiff and staring keeping the float closed. I trimmed the gasket out to the edges of the float bowl, so that there was no material to hit the float, and have had no troubles since.

  Hope this helps.
Favorite place to race:on the xbox

Fomoco's biggest achievement:
The PINTO!!

Fomoco's biggest mistake:
Not offering a V-8 Pinto!!!!!!!

STpinto

Keep in mind when trouble shooting this stuff- air, fuel , spark and compression must all be consistently present for good things to happen. If you have done a compression check and are satisfied with that, then go to the next item, and check that--consistensy is key here. Also, as you mentioned, how strong is the spark? How much flow to the carb? How much air gets in? Is the timing of all this correct? Then after you have chased down all these items, you have to go through the sub-items on each. With each new discovery, start it up and see the results. I'll keep thinking!
Keep on Keepin on

pintoguy76

I'll  check that but im pretty sure its tight. Im going to take my plug wires back to the parts store tomorrow and get them warrantied....awful funny it went away after giving it a tuneup last time. However, i did fill the gas tank up totally full tonite (i dont usually) and it is overfull (i "topped it off") and started smelling gas real bad. I went and looked and there is a little bit of a fuel leak back there. May just be because its filled to the brim with fuel, because it usually doesnt leak and its been so long since its been full. Could this have anything to do with my problem? I dont really think so, but if it is in one of the fuel lines back there (not likly tho since it doesnt leak all the time) it could be sucking air alongside the fuel and causing fuel starvation at speed (float bowl going dry). It could still possibly free flow the proper volume that way with no load on it (not pushing against the needle/seat) and then have problems again under load. Just a thought. I need to check it out too i guess. Geeze whats next i wonder. LOL. thanks guys. Ill keep trying stuff.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

STpinto

Hey my brain just squirted another possibility--is your carb tightend down? Check the bolts between the carb base and the carb! I overhauled  a carb once and left those screws about finger tight- ran good for about 2 years and developed a very vexing problem, no power on the highway, hard to start.  I was checking it out and when I removed the air cleaner element I bumped the carb and it shifted about 1/4 inch? Major forehead slap! Took off the carb, tighted the screws and then tightened the carb back down. Now it runs like a champ!
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pintoguy76

Ive been there done that before. Anytime im under the hoodi kinda tinkering around. checking this and checking that. PCV valve is new, as are the vacuum lines. I kinda went on a spree and over the last 3 years, ive replaced just about everthing under the hood, except the motor itself, and the heater hoses (doesnt that just sound like fun? you know you want to replace the hoses for me..... ;D lol) I'll let you know what all i find. Im gonna see about the coil and have the control module tested too. I replaced it a few years ago when i got the car. It wouldnt start and the module was the problem. However i used the cheapest part i could find. Oops.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

STpinto

That is kind of weird, seems like maybe you moved a vacuum line around and plugged a leak accidently when you did the tune up, then later the vac line slipped to its old leaking position. Vac lines are cheap, just replace them all to eliminate them.  Also, how is your pcv valve? They can affect performance too. Make sure your distributer is tightend down also, your timing could be sliding around. There are so many silly things it could be, it's sometimes just a matter of spending a lot of time, just kind of pawing around on the thing til you  see something amiss. I bet when you find this, it will make you want to slap your head! I've done it many times, I just understand myself better now, know I can overlook easy stuff by assuming it to be good.
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pintoguy76

I pulled the spark plugs today. All of them have a little bit of a white powder looking substance on them. Its normal i think. I checked the fuel pump volume...in just the 5 seconds or so that i had it on, i filled up about 1/3rd of a 20 oz coke bottle. The pressure i cant test right now.but if its got the volume surly it has the pressure too? I havnt got to check the coil yet, or the distributor as suggested before. Is there anything in the carburetor that could make it do this? i am not a professional carburetor guy.........i dont know too much about carbs but i rebuilt this carb by myself, and  adjsuted it with a vacuum guage.  I checked the float level andall tht good stuff. Also, i dont know if this tells you anything or not but here goes. I had this problem before, and then on june 3rd i tuned it up. Never tested it or anything to make sure i have fixed the problem. Bravely the next day i took it on a 200 mile trip to kansas city. It ran like a striped butt ape. I would NEVER have guessed this thing to run like this. Pulling 80 mph on a hill and not even on the floorboard, and still gaining speed, and other things that just totally blew my mind. It had a TON more power. However that only lasted a few weeks and then it went away. Does this sound like a problem or is that just the new ness of the tuneup wearing off? If its a problem it might explain the misfiring problem.
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

77turbopinto

Wow, thats.....  I too have a daily driver park ave.

I have a good spare engine I would give you if you were closer. Well, you can have it anyway, just might not be cost effective.

There was a aux. shaft on ebay not long ago, might still be there.

Yes, please keep us posted, and good luck.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

STpinto

Hey I still think it is your coil-see if it has oil residue on it, and it gets real hot--if you get an odor like a flourescent lamp ballast burning out, it is your coil--also, take your distributer cap off and push the shaft around, see if it moves--it it moves, you willscatter spark at rpm--be sure and keep us posted so we can see if we helped!!
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pintoguy76

The fuel pump is mounted back by the fuel tank and yes is it below the fuel tank level. The first time the problem came up was long after the electric pump was installed. I gave it a tune up and that fixed it. Now then 5k miles or so later its doing it again. I think the pump is getting weak or as suggested is unable to pump because of a lack of venting. I dont know. 77Turbo - Yes all the pumps came from the same place (oreilly auto) but it tried 3 different brands. The last one was a carter which is a name brand. I think the lobe on the auxillary shaft that drives the pump is just bad, and that it has enough lift on it to run the pump until it wears out a little, and then thats it. Also, back when i was having problems with the mechanical pumps, i took the lines all off, and the tank and made sure everything was all clear. Also, when i replaced the filter behind the fuel pump here a week or so ago, fuel was gravity flowing out of the line when i removed the line from the fiilter. i had to plug the line because it wouldnt stop (that should verify the pump is in a good spot right there) and so that tells me the lines and strainer are clear, atleast up to there. I Guess i should check on that from there, but i really think the problem is ignition related. Anyone know how much volume i need to properly run a 2.3L? I think its providing plenty (if not too much, as suggested. This pump is supposed to put out 5 to 7 PSI, and i think i only need 4 to 6 PSI) Not sure on the volume. I'd like to go back to a mechanical pump, but im afraid i'd have problems every thousand miles again like before. I do have a spare motor that i am thinking about putting in soon. Maybe the mechanical pump will be fine after that (i hope! tho i do really like the electric pump  for some reason) It's only got to last me until i get the rest of the parts and the motor for my 2.3 Turbo swap. Probably gonna be a while tho unfortunatly, and i need this car until then. My park avenue with  240k on its 3800 V6 just spun a rod bearing, and id rather have my pinto anyways!
1974 Ford Pinto Wagon with 1991 Mustang DIS EFI 2.3 and stock Pinto 4 Speed

1996 Chevy C2500 Suburban with 6.5L Turbo Diesel/4L80E 4x2

1980 Volvo 265 with 1997 S-10 4.3 and a modified 700R4

2010 GMC Sierra SLE 1500 4x2 5.3 6L80E

77turbopinto

Good point ST!!! Some in line pumps don't like to pull the gas up out of the tank.

Bill
Thanks to all U.S. Military members past & present.

STpinto

I didn't read about you having an electric fuel pump my first post-but my son had a similar problem with cheapie electric fuel pump- we replace it with a Holley and never had any other problems, but did you know the electric fuel pumps must be mounted lower than the gas tank? Even  Holley suggests this mounting location. Check your pressure, along with all the other suggestions these guys have made, surely one of these solutions will work-- ;D
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