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Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Yet another 351W swap underway

Started by ptsherman, October 05, 2005, 10:35:13 AM

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Bwayrshires

Paul,

My cable exits through the tunnel then is routed around behind the trans and goes along the drivers side of the tunnel above the trans mount. If you need a pic give me a couple days, I just let the car down off of jackstands tonight. Supposed to go play at the dragstrip Sat, as long as the weather holds out.

Brian

ptsherman

PMF-

What was this in refernece to? Routing of the shifter cable?
Hate to miss out on some good advice!

Thanks
Paul

pmfman

the easiest way ive seen in to cut a hole in the wheel well and put it though there. thats what the kits used to require as well.
KDC

Bwayrshires

Yes i'm using a c-4, the shifter comes with brackets for Ford, Chevy and Chrysler tranny's. I am very pleased with it, you can also get other shift plates if you go to a reverse valve body. I plan on going to a manual valve body in the future so I will go with the reverse pattern. The shifter is really strong, it is higher priced but I think you get more with it.


Brian

ptsherman

Oooo. That is slick looking; more substantial than the Quarter Stick.
Are you using a C4 trans?

Thanks
Paul


Bwayrshires

Paul,

I used a TCI Thunder Stick in my Wagon. It comes with everything you need to install it. The shifter is alot beefier than the Quarter Stick. I compared it to my brother-in-laws Quarter Stick in his Camaro. It also runs the cable away from my headers, which is alot nicer, eliminates heat againist the cable.

Brian

ptsherman

No, no beating, but I did take a file to the large aluminum outer housing near the ends and picked up a little clearance where it was REAL close to the pan. Between that and a little shim under the trans mount, I'm happy with my pan clearance Clarence, my carb mounting surface is damn near level, and the tail shaft is within a degree or two of the rear end. I figure I could shim under the leaf springs to get everything right on.

I'll admit, this is going a lot smoother than I had anticipated. I can even use the stock driveshaft. What I had figured on months of winter work has taken me just a couple of weeks...

I plan on using some cool shifter like a Quarter Stick, so yeah, I figured on lots of bracketry and linkage fabbing...cable seems like a good way to go there.

Thanks
Paul

High_Horse

I would not be beating on the steering tube. Mine is very close.....like 1/8th inch. I as well had the question about engine tilt. But I arbitarily went with the trans mount height figuring I could raise the rear end if need be. As it is it is no problem with the 225/70R 14'S on the back. But keep in mind sherman that you are going to have to make a shifting linkage. And I did find out that my trans tail sits a little to the passenger side and I may be experiencing this u-joint vibration that 71 was speaking about. I built rigid motor mounts to maintain that slim clearence between pan and rack,and, I am wondering what vibrations I am getting from that. Keep at it sherman. ThunderPinto vibrates a little but but it flys.
                                                                                          High_Horse
                                                                     
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

ptsherman

Yeah, I guess that's what that extra 1/2 inch of stroke gets me!

I'll try picking the whole assembly a bit. I don't need much, and I really the the idea of taking a hammer to a new $175 pan. Anyone know how thick the steering tube is? Is there 1/8 clearance to be picked up there somewhere?

Thanks
Paul

71hotrodpinto

Hey there, 
WOW thats tight. Glad it wasn't a waste of money for you. I realized i didn't like the engine sitting up so high so I lowered my steering rack mounts about
1 1/2" . I'm going to see what the tie rod angles look like after I set the ride height of the front end so that i can avoid bumpsteer.
If you need to change the angle of the engine it will be dictated by the pinon angle. If the angle relationship is not the same from the tailshaft to the rearend yoke then you will get u/joint damaging vibrations. To be sure, there is a post somewhere on the forum that touched upon this subject.
Looks like your on your way, Cant wait to see it finished! ( mine TOO!! LOL)


ptsherman

So I went the Milodon route for the 351, and it looks pretty slick.

The pan is flat from the sump back so there's no sump interference issues, but even so the pan just about sits on the steering rack. I'd like to pick the engine up a bit to get even 1/8 of daylight. I'm using a motor plate and will chain the driver's side down so there will be little engine movement.

Here's my question...how much can you tilt an engine up? (and I'm talking a quarter or half an inch or so). Should I put a little shim in the transmission mount as well, so the whole unit gets lifted a bit?

Using the carb mount on the intake as a reference, how far from level is it safe to go?

Thanks-
Paul

ptsherman

My plan was to use Duraspark. I don't think I'll need anything more, so I guess I'll have to see what the Ford Motorsport guys routinely do with the HV pumps. I just don't want to be pulling the distributor regularly to change gears...
I'm also running a hydraulic cam, so no worries there.

Looks like the flipped X-member trick will work to position the trans for and aft, tho I do have to widen the holes in it for the Energy Suspension trans mount. Seems odd, but the holes on the poly mount are about a third of a hole off from the X-member...

Thanks
Paul

71hotrodpinto

AHHHHH Yeesss. ;)
I worried about that for a while. I run a b303 roller cam. But i have a msd distributor. MSD doesn't offer a steel gear for the 8582 distributor that i have, so i had to ask around. Hawaii racing in simi valley pointed me in the right direction for the correct FORD gear to match my factory style roller. Cant remember the part # but it was the more expensive one by $25!! >:(
I had to drill and pin the new gear on the msd shaft. The ford instructions are very clear on the way to do it but unless you have access to precision measuring instruments and an arbor-press id recommend to have someone do it for you.
  Check the msd website out. i bet they have the solution for you and the 351w. in a whole distributor. Crane also makes a bitchen new distributor that id love to have but its near $300.
Whatever you do stay away from the bronze gear ,even on the standard pump you'll wear that thing out in a few thousand miles or less. i prefer to think of that as a racing only part.
Make sure to use a High quality pump driveshaft , like ARP or Milodon something that wont twist or break. 
This is all assuming your running a roller cam. If your staying with the flat tappet cam  then you'll have to stay with the standard iron gear either way i believe.

Oh yeah i must have ebayed about $1500 to $2000 in stuff over the last 2 years to get where I'm at today ,and I'm still going.
I'll probably have about a $7500 pinto by the time im done. Which isn't out of the question these days .At least I'm not making a race car out of it id probable need another 2500!! at least.
Good luck,Robert

ptsherman

Hm. I'll have to ebay some stuff to pay for one of those pans...looks slick!

I've also got a Melling HV pump, figuring as a goof-around drag toy the engine is going to see a lot more revs than it would in a truck or whatever, more centrifugal force trying to sling oil away from bearings inside.

Which brings me to my next question for Robert; what are you going to run as a gear on your distributor? Is steel the way to go, or is there some space-age adamantium super alloy gear made for when you're spinning an HV pump?

Thanks
Paul

71hotrodpinto

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?Ntt=30925&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&searchinresults=false&N=0&target=egnsearch.asp
Well I dont beilive its a gamble, but it is your money LOL
Yno as a side note ive heard many a time of people NOT using a high volume oil pump because of the horspower loss, tight bearing clearances etc, and then they end up having lower than expected oil pressure anyways
Im using a high volume melling pump with prob 5-30 or similar oil after the engines "broken in"( hopefully not broken)
Where im leading to is that if you do run a high volume then you should have increased sump capacity besides it can help with cooling to a certian point how much i dont know. ( do i sound like a salesman for milodon?? Sorry LOL)
Certianly call them first to get some dimentions first. Or you could call SummitRacing and ask about there return policy.
Good luck
Robert



High_Horse

ptsherman, it looks like your rack is narrower then mine. It might be the pre-76 thing. My first step was to get the engine and trans positioned. As I was using a v6 car I was able to use my stock tranny mount and cradle but did turn the cradle around backwards without drilling any holes. If you have the werewithall to mod the pan then you can always add cylindrical extentions off the sides of the sump end for increased volumetric capacity. I was going to do that to mine but I was hot to trot. Another thing I did was to make ridged mounts so I was confident that where I liked the engine/trans placement was exactly where it would be. I used a 2 by four across the engine compartment with a cable sling under the pan to hold it up so I could zero in on mount position and still have jiggle capabilities. I took an even 2 inches off of my drive shaft. But yours may be a different amount. So my procedure was #1-mod. oil pan and get it on.#2-trans mount/ sling would help. #3- with trans mount in sling the motor and fittup motormounts. #4- driveshaft.
                                                                                                            High_Horse
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

ptsherman

I had planned on doing that pan mod myself to a cheap 351W pan I picked up, tho I DID like the idea of getting increased capacity with the Milodon (and yeah, the gold color is cool too).

Anyway, I've got the engine back as far as I can (pretty much right up against the wiring harness), and I'll have to split the rack/crank clearance when I build the pan.

I'll probably only have to elongate the trans crossmember holes a bit to get that to fit with a stock mount. The driveshaft seems like it's about an inch or so from being a perfect fit; at what point is it necessary to shorten the shaft?

Thanks
Paul


High_Horse

PTSherman, Yes you at the part where you want to tuck that baby in as low as it will go.Which will allow you to go back as far as you can go. I did the trick with a 302/c4. I layed my block on it's back and threw in a couple of connecting rods. And based on that I allowed 1/2 inch clearence. Then I went to the oil pan guy and he made me this. It is a 65 mustang pan carved out. It's configuration is the same as the pan 71hotrod suggests. He is right in as that inside radius is a fooler and the sharp 90 is best. If my guy were to make one of these for you he would want at least 200. So it is not to much of a gamble for you, measure from your pan mount surface to the conecting rod clearence and call them and ask what their pan depth is on the back end. My pan to rack clearence is -1/8th of and inch.
                                                                                                              High_Horse
Started with a Bobcat wagon. Then a Cruising wagon. Now a Chocolate brown 77 wagon. I will enjoy this car for a long time. I'm in. High_Horse

71hotrodpinto

Hey again. The milodon pan has a "relief" on the area between the sump and the shallow part of the pan. Its more squared off. Verses the stock pan has a very gentle bend and thats what causes the interference on the rack. Check ebay , never know, may get a good deal.
When i made bolt holes for the motor mounts in the frame rails i reinforced them with some tubing larger than the bolt that you will use. I then drilled a hole of about 3/4 where i wanted them with a Irwin multi step drill. they are about $45. (If your interested ill sell you a new one for 20 if you want it. I picked up a new one that was the wrong size. )
Anyways ,weld the tubing in from both sides and grind it flush on the mounting side.
Yes re-weld the seam for sure . As far as the structure goes there isn't much thats going on for strength as far as the inner fender-wells. They basically hold up the fenders and the wiring loom. LOL
Id reinforce them with some 1/2 square tubing in some areas that seem wiggly now that its cut out.
Don't forget to weld some kind of connector from the front subframe to the rear torque boxes( the pocket where the front leaf bolts)  I used some 3x 1 1/2 rectangular tubing and notched out the floor .( man was that work)

  Good luck ,Robert

ptsherman

Summit's part # on those headers is PTE-H8427. I love how they just dump straight down. Might be handy for uncorking at the track!

What's the general wisdom on those flimsy frame rails? I've taken the lip down pretty god on the passenger side (tho not actually INTO the rail itself).
Do people put big bolts thru the rails to help keep them together? I may just run a bead of weld along the seam at the top and let it go at that.

Earlier Robert mentioned using a Milodon deep sump pan for the 351 to get around the steering/crossmember. has anyone actually done this? It looks like the pan would work, but that's a $225 gamble...

Thanks
Paul

78pinto

looking good! Do you have a picture of those headers outside the car, i'd love to see what they look like!? Do you have a part number for them also, they might work well for a turbo application.
** Jeff (78Pinto) is Missing from us but will always be a part of our community- We miss you Jeff **

71hotrodpinto

Hey,
looks like you might be on to something , good luck!
As far as removing the heater assy, i dont see any issues with that. However if you are trying to set the engine back remember the windshield wiper links under and near the cowl. You might lose those too. But being a summer car it might be an acceptable loss.
Just remember that if you start down that road, to scrape out all the undercoating in the interior near the area of modification. This stuff catches Fire when you are welding on the "firewall" (lol).
Good luck and have fun doing it!
Robert

ptsherman

OK, with everything in it's right place approximately (using crossmember and trans as a locator), and after some Sawzall surgery, the Patriot tight tuck street rod headers *almost* fit. I may dimple the pipes instead of cutting into the frame anymore (which I plan on reinforcing afterwards). I hate dimpling the headers, but I figure I'm still ahead of using manifolds in terms of restriction. I did flip sides with the headers, so they exit in front of the steering & crossmember, pointing more or less down.

ptsherman

That looks excellent, Robert. I *may* have the header issue licked, by means of some tight tuck shorty headers from Patriot, but more on that later.

I'm in New England and since this is going to be a non-winter car, I was thinking of ditching the heater altogether. Something tells me this is going to be a hot ride anyway and I'd gain some room by getting rid ot the heater hoses and blower...any cons to that?

I just ordered a new trans mount from Energy Suspension, so I'll get the engine trans located soon-

Thanks
Paul

71hotrodpinto

Hello there!
When you use the stock c4 V8 mount  on the pinto crossmember you have to drill new mounting holes about an inch foward and that puts the rear of the block within about 3/4 inch of the firewall. The major interferance is with the wiring loom at this point. it basicly makes a 90deg bend, and in my case ,almost rubs the head. in my 71 i thought about cutting out the firewall to make some more clearance and shove it back a couple of inches. But that was going to be a MAJOR headache. Id have had to move the wiring loom, moved the heater box back, plus because im using the mustang II headers id have had to make some Big bumps near trans tunnel interfereing with my feet and the passengers .(They almost hit as it is.)
Talk to 78pinto on this one for the headers.  I beilive that he uses Hooker 351 swap headers in his 78 drag car.
I dont think youd want the mustang II headers for the 351 as there barely adequate for the performance 302. 1/2 primarys and 3 inch collectors. Plus i had to do some major surgery on the headers to get them to fit the way i wanted. ( one mig welder, a half dozen mandrel bends, lots of patience and about 6 to 7 weeks of weekends to weld these things up from not fitting very well ,to fitting real snug but well)
Im not sure but i think that you might want to check out the Milodon deep sump pan for the 351. If its like the 302 you wont need to cut up your stock pan. + get some more oil capacity.
good luck,Robert

 

ptsherman

Just started doing some test fits of a 351W/C4 into a '74 Pinto. The engine itself fits quite nicely, but it's when you put headers on that the fun begins. I've got a few different types of headers to try, and I'll use the setup that requires the LEAST amount of surgery. I already assume the fenderwells are gone, and tho I love the reverse Mustang shorty idea, the notion of notching what little frame there is doesn't appeal to me.
The rear end has already been swapped for a MII 8" (which is literally a bolt in swap), and I'll be using a motor plate for mounting. I plan on doing some surgery to the oil pan to clear the steering rack as well.

What's the general consensus in regard to how far back to get the motor? Since I'm using a C4, do I just use the trans mount s a reference, and locate the trans/engine unit that way?

Thanks
Paul