News:

Changes Continue... Scott Hamilton

Main Menu

Mini Classifieds

13x6 minilite style wheels MAKE OFFER——NEED GONE

Date: 08/01/2018 01:17 pm
73 2.0 Timing Crank Gear & Woodruff key WANTED
Date: 09/01/2017 07:52 am
parts needed
Date: 02/20/2017 07:58 am
1980 Ford Pinto Squire Wagon * All original 1 Owner *

Date: 09/15/2019 12:28 pm
New front rotors and everything for '74-'80
Date: 08/02/2019 04:18 pm
1971 Pinto Runabout turn key driver

Date: 07/01/2019 12:23 pm
pinto parts for sale
Date: 07/25/2018 04:51 pm
76 Pinto Wagon
Date: 07/08/2020 05:44 pm
1978 pinto grill
Date: 07/24/2018 02:18 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,574
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 905
  • Online ever: 1,722 (May 04, 2025, 02:19:48 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 562
  • Total: 562
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

Hello

Started by David Lee, January 09, 2018, 02:26:45 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

David Lee

where cost is not a factor. When i started out in stock racing you could buy a car already built that could run .5 to .75 under the index for 7k to 10K. Now a good set of heads costs 7K, a transmission 5k, set of pistons and  ring packages can run 2k. convertor 1K. Gone are the days that using factory pistons or trw pistons.

There are a few classes usually the slower classes that can be built for about 10K or less.

one2.34me

David, what's a liquid money class?

When I ran my car, I'd make a few runs as fast as I could, then write a time on the windshield I was pretty sure I wouldn't outrun. After each run, I'd check which way my runs were heading and whether or not it was getting hotter or colder and adjust my time up or down accordingly. Not very scientific, but it sure was a lot of fun. That project Pinto's out there somewhere.

David Lee

i am still looking for that project pinto.

Wittsend

David, thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions.  Yes, I'm torn between the high cost of racing and being the type that likes to "tinker" where the money is replaced with a persons time and ingenuity.  I guess in our high tech world drag racing of the 60's/70's is something that won't come back. But there was something about the intrepid way it was accomplished.  All the best in your racing venture. Keep us posted as to how it goes.

David Lee

you can dial under the index but not over the index. And yes it comes to reaction time, consistent driving (hitting the shift points always the same) and also driving the top end. Mot drivers keep a .10 in there pocket. Also the et that you put on your windshield can change due to weather and other factors. The NHRA has changed the index not too long ago. And the NHRA does add weight by giving hp to a engine/body style has an unfair advantage.

The problem with the fast as you can, makes it a liquid money class. We saw that in pro stock and that class is almost dead.

Wittsend

So, assuming that all cars might be capable of running under the index it really comes down to reaction time and not breaking out.  Are you allowed to dial in under the index? Or is the index ridged?

  Also does the NHRA ever alter the index or does the index just become a base time and the increment between each class is equal?

Given the cars run off an index are there even class records?  As I mentioned above the class record use to be the "index" and people hated their car becoming obsolete when another dropped it significantly.  I get that reaction time is a factor in winning but I have always had trouble with cars "winning by braking."  I guess no system is ideal but I hate the break out rule. It makes the race more of a reaction contest than a car race.

David Lee

there is not just 16 that makes up the field. I have been to events there has been over 128 cars. 128 is the limit that is allow to go into eliminations. The  place you qualify is set on how far do you qualify under the index for your class. During eliminations, it is just like bracket racing, a 8 second drag pack challenger can be racing a 16 second pinto wagon. If you have to cars in the same class, it goes to a heads up race with no break out. If there is a heavy hitter that maybe in your class, you try to qualify either on the same side as him or in a position that hopefully you will not meet him until the final round. Another tactic is to go go up or down from him. There are not too many w/sa cars so that will not be a problem for this combo

one2.34me

So how does an NHRA event set up the "stock"16 cars to run an event? There must be a hundred of more cars that want to qualify, with their times all over the map. If you join the NHRA and show up in a bone stock 50's car, would you be allowed to qualify and how would that work with so many different cars and times?

Wittsend

Thanks for the detailed post. It seems there are a few areas (provided one had access to numerous parts) to gain an advantage. .080 overbore. Find the lightest piston/rod and then lighten others to match. Find longest rods +.025.


The valve seat replacement seems a bit interesting in that how deep of a seat can you inset that might alter bowl characteristics. No, your not porting the bowl, you are just using a deep seat with better characteristics. I'm musing about this, but it does seem a potential "issue" for the NHRA when the seats are replaceable.


I wonder what duration people run on their cams and at what point valve clearance becomes an issue?


It seems the Stock racer pays a premium for machine work that ever so marginally adds to performance.  And they need access to multiple parts to maximize any tolerance advantage.  That's fine. For me though I'd rather be able to moderately port heads and the like. It seems like a "owner putting time in" kind of thing. But I guess there will always be someone paying a guy with a flow bench who will do a better job.


Anyone remember Junkyard Wars?  I wish they would have a (sort of) car version of that show. Give two teams identical cars and let them modify all the stock parts (and stock parts only) to see who can get the most out of them.  I'm thinking where they use say..., the metal from the air cleaner to make a windage tray kind of challenge. Or you make a jig to grind the base circle to alter lift and duration (using pointers and protractors to get it all right).  I'd be looking for creativity.  Have a 2 out of 3 drag race and then an endurance race.


All the best in the search this will be a post many here I'm sure will follow.

David Lee

here is the answers to your questions taken from the 2016 rulebook

Carb or injection (2bbl to 4 bbl, increase TB size)

CARBURETOR
Must be correct year, make, and model specified for car's engine;
fuel or air bleed passages may be resized. Drilling idle holes in
primary throttle blades permitted. Other modifications prohibited.
Sandblasting, grinding, flash removal, dry film coating, or any
other modification to carburetors prohibited. Replacement
carburetors permitted provided they are same model, type,
throttle bore, and venturi size. Computer carburetors use latest
model non-computer carb for engine application.

FUEL INJECTION
Fuel injection must retain OEM throttle body(s), plenum, and
manifold. If OEM throttle body(s) was equipped with electronic
throttle control (i.e., drive by wire), the throttle body(s) may be
adapted to mechanical throttle linkage if an aftermarket OEMtype
electronic-fuel-injection system is used. Larger fuel injectors
permitted, provided no modification or redrilling of manifolds is
performed. Electronic fuel injection must be closed, OEM-type
system; i.e., may monitor only engine functions. Monitoring of
vehicle performance criteria, wheel speed, driveshaft speed,
vehicle acceleration, etc. by fuel-injection system prohibited. All
aftermarket OEM-type electronic fuel injection must be NHRAaccepted.
A current list of NHRA-accepted electronic-fuelinjection
systems is available on NHRARacer.com. Open-loop
systems permitted on production vehicles as equipped with OEM
electronic fuel injection.

Intake

INTAKE MANIFOLD
Must retain the unaltered stock manifold, consistent with year
and engine horsepower claimed. Grinding, sandblasting, or any
other modification to manifold prohibited. Any film coating inside
manifold prohibited. Runners and plenum must retain OEM
appearance.

Heads

CYLINDER HEADS
Must be correct casting number for year and horsepower claimed,
per NHRA Technical Bulletins or NHRA accepted. Porting,
polishing, welding, epoxying and acid-porting prohibited.
Combustion-chamber modifications prohibited. Cylinder heads are
additionally restricted in that they must retain original-size valves at
original angles +/- 1 degree and must be able to hold original
cylinder-head volume per NHRA Specifications. Runner volumes
may not exceed the current Super Stock cylinder-head volumes as
listed on www.NHRARacer.com. Regardless of the poured volume
measurement, any modifications to intake or exhaust runners
prohibited. Any evidence of modifications from the original castings
will be grounds for disqualifications as determined by NHRA in
NHRA's sole and absolute discretion. Any aftermarket steel valve
permitted, must retain stock head and stem diameters. Only
engines OEM-equipped with sodium-filled valves may use sodiumfilled
replacement valves. Titanium prohibited. Hardened keepers
permitted. Lash caps prohibited. Valve-diameter tolerance: +.005-
inch or -.015-inch from NHRA Specs. The following are prohibited:
spark-plug adapters; any grinding in ports or combustion
chambers; removal of any flashings; sandblasting or any other
modification to cylinder head; any film coating of intake and
exhaust runners; any film coating of combustion chamber. Runners
and combustion chamber must retain OEM appearance. Final
acceptance as determined by NHRA in NHRA's sole and absolute
discretion. External modifications prohibited. Intake side of head
may not be cut into any part of valve cover bolt holes. Valve-cover
bolt holes must remain unaltered and in their original location.
Heat riser passage may be blocked from intake manifold side of
cylinder head. Blocking passage down in valve pocket prohibited.
The following are permitted: polylocks, jam nuts, screw-in largerdiameter
rocker studs or pinned studs, bronze-wall valve guides,
cylinder head studs. Valve spring umbrellas optional. Cylinder
head may have all of the seats replaced. Any valve job
permitted,O-ringing prohibited. Exhaust plates prohibited.

Valves

Cam (deviation from Stock)

CAMSHAFT/LIFTERS
Camshaft must retain stock lift for horsepower claimed per NHRA
Technical Bulletins. Front-wheel-drive vehicles and stock trucks,
maximum lift is limited to .430-inch or OEM, whichever is greater.
Aftermarket OEM-type replacement lifters permitted. Lift checked at
valve retainer, with zero lash. Hydraulic lifter cam will be checked
with pushrod and rocker as run, plus solid lifter, at zero lash. Plunger
height of checking lifter will match extended height (no preload) of
hydraulic lifter. Hydraulic lifter may not be plugged or bottomed.
Aftermarket gear drives/belts prohibited. Aftermarket timing covers
permitted as long as OEM-type timing gears are used. Adjustable
pushrods or adjustable OEM rocker arms (not both) permitted; must
be same or greater weight as stock. Pushrod guide plates permitted.
Cylinder head may be clearanced for larger-diameter pushrods.

A late change to the rulebook while the 2017 season was going on, is
now every car can run a solid lifter cam and solid lifters

Block, crank, rods, pistons

CONNECTING RODS
Stock OEM or NHRA-accepted aftermarket rods permitted. NHRAaccepted
aftermarket rods must meet specifications as found on
the then-current NHRA Stock & Super Stock Replacement Rod
Acceptance List. The combined weight of the piston, pin, rings,
and connecting rod must be equal to or greater than the Minimum
Assembly Weight as found on the then-current Stock Replacement
Piston Acceptance List. Accepted replacements are published on
NHRARacer.com. Grinding and polishing permitted on beams only.
Shot-peening of connecting rods permitted. Length must be stock
+/- .025-inch center to center. The use of rod and crank spacer
bearings prohibited. Cylinder block housing bore size and rod bore
housing size must maintain sizes as designated per NHRA's thencurrent
approved rod listing.

ENGINE
Must be same year and make as car used, aftermarket NHRAaccepted
cylinder blocks permitted. Equipment other than
original factory-installed prohibited. Any special equipment export
kit (superchargers, dealer-installed options, etc.) automatically
disqualifies car. Engine must remain in stock location — height,
setback, etc. Cylinder bores must not exceed .080-inch over
stock. Bores are measured at top of cylinder where ring wear is
not evident. Crossbreeding parts prohibited. Normal balance job
(i.e., one piston/rod assembly untouched) permitted. Otherwise
lightening of component parts prohibited. All carburetors,
manifolds, heads, etc. must be tightened to prevent any air or fuel
leaks. Vacuum lines must be securely connected or blocked off.
Stroke tolerance is +/- .015-inch. Stock OEM or NHRA-accepted
aftermarket crankshaft mandatory. Aftermarket crank must retain
OEM configuration (i.e., billets, knife edging, etc. prohibited).
Lightening of crankshaft other than normal balance job
prohibited. Cylinder blocks may be sleeved. Aftermarket SFI
Spec 18.1 harmonic balancer mandatory in AAA/S through G/S
and AAA/SA through G/SA.

PISTONS
OEM or NHRA-accepted aftermarket replacements permitted
provided such items comply with all requirements set forth in this
section. Aftermarket pistons may be forged or cast and must
retain the as-cast or as-forged head configuration. The
manufacturer or ID number must remain unaltered and fully
visible to determine correct application. Piston may not be
remachined for special rings, deck height adjustment, valve relief
size, depth, location, or to modify dome or dish. Piston must be
of the same overall design with the same dome/dish
configuration as OEM piston with the correct number, location,
depth, and width of ring grooves. Valve relief and head land
modifications to aftermarket or OEM pistons prohibited.
Assembly weight must be equal to or greater than the minimum
assembly weight as found on the then-current Stock
Replacement Piston Acceptance List. Any steel pin of OEM
diameter permitted. Any lightening of pistons beyond that
necessary for normal balancing is strictly prohibited. Gas porting
of pistons prohibited. Piston may be installed with arrow in either
direction. NHRA-accepted aftermarket pistons and weights are
published on NHRARacer.com.

I hope this helps you understand today's "stock".

I am still searching for the right year pinto in my area.  And I may go down to a local junk yard to see if i can find a 2.3 short block to start the engine build.

Wittsend

David,  when I was at the NHRA site it seems one has to buy a rule book to know specifically what they are. As it regards the Stock class what can be changed? I'll put a list below, but feel free to add if I missed anything.

Carb or injection (2bbl to 4 bbl, increase TB size)

Intake

Heads

Valves

Cam (deviation from Stock)

Block, crank, rods, pistons

I have two thoughts, one if significant mods are allowed why the term Stock. The second, if significant mods does that rule out certain engines simply because there are no manufactured parts of advantage?

In the past the index was based on the national record. Bummer if someone dropped the record in your class.  But if there are now fixed indexes it seems little more that bracket racing.

David Lee

Quote from: one2.34me on January 14, 2018, 01:25:08 PM
"The only thing that can be electronic in stock eliminator is the ignition, no delay boxes, no trans brakes.
I foot brake every car I have built and run. "

^^^That's drag racing to me, the drivers control everything involved in a run, staging, launching, accelerating, putting on the brakes . The silliest thing I ever saw was two built cars idling down the strip, then about halfway down nailing it to rip across the finish line. 7k for a set of heads. There's just no stopping money from coming in and taking over, from slot cars on up. I am in SoCal, Whittier.

I think you are talking about the super classes,  find not excitement in those classes. Many of them use powerglides and an air shifter and a delay box.

7k for heads now days are on the inexpensive side.  Some so called stock heads can run that much. The nhra now has approved some aftermarket aluminum heads with much bigger ports than and flow potential than the stock heads ever could. From my days going to lions and watching people that was going to compete in stock drive thar car to the track, remove the street tires, drop the mufflers, rejet the carb and race. When i returned to drag racing in the mid 90's, I thought the stock cars in the pits were the super stockers. Most people in stock no longer build their engines and buy 10K plus engines and race. That is not what I plan on doing. if I can't do it myself on the first try, I will just work harder and learn more.

Wittsend

X2 on what one2.34me said.


"The silliest thing I ever saw was two built cars idling down a strip, then about halfway down nailing it to rip across the finish line."


Yep. I hadn't been to a drag race in nearly 30 years. But I had a gap in work and went with a friend to Pomona for a Winternational tune up day. It was the first time I saw that kind of driving and was utterly confounded by the stupidity of it. It reminds me of that Velodrome bike racing where that putter around and then sprint the last turn to the finish.


Also was shocked to see John Force and everything else "Force" there with I believe it was seven tractor trailers! I searched the pits and the absolute least example I saw was a Stock class car on a trailer behind a motorhome. Gone was the flat towing behind the wife's station wagon. Even a lot of Top Fueler's in the 60's/70's use an open trailer and a station wagon or pick up.



one2.34me

"The only thing that can be electronic in stock eliminator is the ignition, no delay boxes, no trans brakes.
I foot brake every car I have built and run. "

^^^That's drag racing to me, the drivers control everything involved in a run, staging, launching, accelerating, putting on the brakes . The silliest thing I ever saw was two built cars idling down the strip, then about halfway down nailing it to rip across the finish line. 7k for a set of heads. There's just no stopping money from coming in and taking over, from slot cars on up. I am in SoCal, Whittier.

David Lee

X2 on what Wittsend said David. I wasn't trying to be wise. I haven't followed Drag racing since Bob Glidden left the NHRA. I'm just curious if there is an NHRA class that actually runs "stock" cars, without all the computerized aids. They shouldn't be legal in any class! Heaven forbid that a launch and run should be determined by the drivers ability. 

In the early 90's I did some drag racing with my '58 Edsel Pacer. Stock 361, teletouch cruise o matic, better air cleaner and headers. I swapped the stock 9" pumpkin with highway gears for a 3.89 pumpkin, and that was it. Maybe pull the front bumper and rear seat if I felt extra energetic.  Old Ed actually earned a runner up at an NDRA event at LACR.

The only thing that can be electronic in stock eliminator is the ignition, no delay boxes, no trans brakes.
I foot brake every car I have built and run.

I would love for a Jr Stock to return, the expense now is getting way out out of hand. A good set of heads now can run 7K and up. This kind of cost is not going to bring in that much new blood. Todays younger set is not interested in spending tons of money and only rin the the 12's.


When i find a 76-79 pinto I am going to do the heads myself and build everything in my 19x19 garage and driveway. This is going to run in W/SA and the index is 16.65.

Are you in the southern California area?

one2.34me

X2 on what Wittsend said David. I wasn't trying to be wise. I haven't followed Drag racing since Bob Glidden left the NHRA. I'm just curious if there is an NHRA class that actually runs "stock" cars, without all the computerized aids. They shouldn't be legal in any class! Heaven forbid that a launch and run should be determined by the drivers ability. 

In the early 90's I did some drag racing with my '58 Edsel Pacer. Stock 361, teletouch cruise o matic, better air cleaner and headers. I swapped the stock 9" pumpkin with highway gears for a 3.89 pumpkin, and that was it. Maybe pull the front bumper and rear seat if I felt extra energetic.  Old Ed actually earned a runner up at an NDRA event at LACR.

Wittsend

David,
  I hope you took no offence to us longtimers musing about the past. I'm pretty sure (at least from my perspective) our point was how things changed from the root wording of "Stock" class and not a comment on your choosing to participate.  I hope you find the car of choice and are successful with it. I think the idea is great.

A side note; as I was looking for NHRA Stock class information on the internet I can across that Pro Stock cars can now run ANY manufactures engine. So, today's Pro Stock cars are more like yesterday's funny cars with doors - and the engine rules (or lack of following the manufacture) are more like the Modified Production/Gas classes of old. In my opinion the NHRA has gone from bad to worse with Pro Stock. It is all Professional money and nothing Stock (or even specific manufacturer).

I really, Really, REALLY think Pro Stock needs to be today's cars restricted to the original body/floor pan with the exception of making it RWD.  So, sort of  a cage/suspension build like a early 70's P/S cars.  And the engines need to be restricted to either 4 or 6 cylinders that are (or have been) in production for say no more than..., 10 years. Oh, yea and real manual shift (no Lenco and the like) transmissions.   If not now allowed (I don't know) Imports need to be included.  That way other than the RWD aspect the spectator CAN relate to the car in the race, the engine in the race and the driving (shifting) in the race.

David Lee

Quote from: one2.34me on January 11, 2018, 01:38:07 PM
David Lee, Is there even a 'stock" class in the NHRA anymore that is actually stock?  Is there anything anymore like the old NostalgiaDRA?

You theoretically could build a car that could run the index using the stock engine and transmission and only change the rear gears.

But I never claimed that the current or even the past class called stocl just used used stock parts. Personally I would enjoy a class that was just "stock". But getting a sactioning body there days to create this class is as good as winning the big lotto

dick1172762

Stock car racing in NASCAR? ??? Come on now! What part on a Nascar "stock car" is from a real car? ??? Use to be the roof had to be stock but now days who knows. Just saw pictures of the Nascar 2018 "stock cars" and they all looked the same. And Nhra? The "stock" cars would not ever been legal on super stock. I too chased the carrot on a stick for 25 years. Now you need a lawyer to read the rule book. AJ Foyt said it best in his book that the cars would be illegal in a 100 places and when tech found 10 of them they would move on to the next car. SAYLAVEE
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

Wittsend

Also saw a few lower Stock class cars in the mentioned article above. In this case V/Stock cars that were typically early 50's Oldsmobiles. It would be interesting to see how the 70's 4 cylinder cars (such as the Pinto) competed with, maybe supplanted these old cars in the same class.

Wittsend

Quote from: one2.34me on January 11, 2018, 01:38:07 PM
David Lee, Is there even a 'stock" class in the NHRA anymore that is actually stock?  Is there anything anymore like the old NostalgiaDRA?

Or, was there EVER a true stock class? At least one the average guy could be competitive in?  As mentioned above even using factory parts there are variations and to be able to hand pick from a large factory parts bin has to be an advantage the average guy just doesn't have. So did the factory sponsored Stock class cars like the "Rod Shop" *Dave & Judy Boartman Mopars have that advantage..., I'd think so.

* Dave Boartman was so competitive with a Coronet wagon and a Charger that in the Summernationals his wife Judy drove the Coronet wagon and him the Charger. They met in the final round with Judy winning. Go to link, read under "Summernationals" https://books.google.com/books?id=50XOnGbw_9gC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=judy+boertman+the+rod+shop&source=bl&ots=NbThKSdmLH&sig=fbcvm2Mi5BV4zKxTvpZs8SfcO_w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj08JGU29DYAhVZHGMKHaERCjwQ6AEIODAD#v=onepage&q=judy%20boertman%20the%20rod%20shop&f=false

one2.34me

Quote from: David Lee on January 10, 2018, 07:36:05 PM
i run stock now just another manufacter.  What can be changed now is about everything. Except for the heads, blocks and crank.

David Lee, Is there even a 'stock" class in the NHRA anymore that is actually stock?  Is there anything anymore like the old NostalgiaDRA?

dick1172762

I've seen several Pinto wagons for sale on the IHRA classified site over the past few years. Worth a look.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

David Lee

i run stock now just another manufacter.  What can be changed now is about everything. Except for the heads, blocks and crank.

Wittsend

Quote from: David Lee on January 09, 2018, 05:00:59 PM
...  What I would love to find is a wagon that is still running and make a pass through the quarter mile and see what bolt ons would do (such as headers, electric water pump etc) before diving into the engine.

It has been nearly 40 years since I followed the NHRA Stock class rules. Here is a link to the 1973 Stock class rules: https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/nhra-junior-stock.201085/page-242
You need to scroll about 40% of the way down the page to the Robert Wilson post # 7244. There you will find four pages of the 1973 NHRA rule book.  It seems pulling the air filter, altering the cam keyway (timing), ignition timing and a windage try in the oil pan is allowed. Nothing but factory exhaust (though it seems they can be "open" as in disconnected from the muffler). Street tires only.
Safety factors such as improved flywheel/scatter shields can be used.

Frankly for a guy who likes to be tinker I'd find the stock rules frustrating.  I remember years ago reading articles where Stock racers would hunt through scores of heads to find two that had 'better" casting alignment. Or hundreds of vales spring to find those that were a few pound stronger.  I'd assume if you didn't have factory/dealer connections you likely had no access to such "tricks."

dick1172762

I can tell this, that the stock 4 speed is junk when you drag race one. I drag raced a 72 Pinto in 1972 and went through many tranies. If I were to do it again I would go with an automatic every time. Engines are bullet proof unless you try to rev it like a small block chevy. Good luck.
Its better to be a has-been, than a never was.

David Lee

The last I heard Stan was living in Florida but have no way to get a hold of him to answer questions. What I would love to find is a wagon that is still running and make a pass through the quarter mile and see what bolt ons would do (such as headers, electric water pump etc) before diving into the engine.

Wittsend

I remember LONG ago that a Pinto was the Stock Eliminator winner at an NHRA event.  My guess is the Winternationals in the mid 70's and I believe running about 16 seconds.  I did a Google search but found nothing other than a guy named Stan Welsh who had a Stock eliminator Pinto wagon. And, I'm not sure it is the same guy (because I'm not even sure it was a wagon) I'm thinking of. But, I did want to note that the Pinto was an NHRA Stock eliminator champ! Anyway, here is a (blurry) picture.


David Lee

Thanks for the info, I am actually in the Redondo Beach area of California. Now at least I can start looking on CL and other sites for a rear.

russosborne

Welcome!
Both the Mustang II and Pinto's had an 8 inch rear as an option depending on engine size.
I think it came with the V6, and in the Mustang II the V8 for sure.
Direct bolt in, although you may have to change driveshafts or at least adjust the length. I think. Hard to remember.
4 lug only, same lug pattern as the smaller 6.75 inch.
The early Mustang ones are close, the leaf spring mounting pad hole needs modified a bit, and the overall width isn't perfect.

You aren't anywhere close to Phoenix, AZ are you? I know someone who has a Mustang II 8 inch that isn't going to use it.

I remember seeing a book on the 4cyl engines, but can't remember the name.

Russ
In Glendale, Arizona

RIP Casey, Mallory, Abby, and Sadie. We miss you.

79 Pinto ESS fully caged fun car. In progress. 8inch 4.10 gears. 351C and a T5 waiting to go in.