Mini Classifieds

6.6.75 carrier
Date: 02/14/2018 06:47 am
73 Pinto delivery wagon drag car

Date: 02/22/2017 01:58 pm
NEED 77/78 MUSTANG II Left Motor Mount
Date: 04/15/2017 05:14 pm
1980 Pinto Pony for sale

Date: 08/21/2021 03:54 pm
Drip rail chrome
Date: 01/14/2017 09:18 am
1973 Pinto Runabout

Date: 03/25/2019 09:02 pm
1975 Pinto bumpers
Date: 10/24/2019 01:43 pm
need 1978 pinto guage cluster
Date: 03/07/2021 07:35 am
79-80 full glass hatch

Date: 01/04/2017 04:04 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 2,457
  • Online ever: 2,670 (May 09, 2025, 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 545
  • Total: 545
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

1977 Pinto mod questions

Started by derekrichmond15@yahoo.com, June 23, 2013, 07:32:49 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

Oooo New windshield installed rained hard after no leaks sweet!! And the 408w is almost complete crank,cam,pistons & rods,oil pump &pan all in place getting excited!!!
1977 408W stroked pinto

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

Grate thanks all!! And yes you need the correct rubber I had a doner car  I just used its rubber.
1977 408W stroked pinto

TIGGER

Quote from: derekrichmond15@yahoo.com on December 15, 2013, 03:14:16 PM
Ok got another question. So you've heard that I'm doing a hatch swap from the par shill metal to a full glass. Will I need to change the rubber? It looks the same but looks can be deceiving!!

The hatch weatherstripping is different between the all glass hatch and the regular metal hatch.
79 4cyl Wagon
73 Turbo HB
78 Cruising Wagon (sold 8/6/11)

74 PintoWagon

Hmmm, I really like this deal.. 8) 8)

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

oldkayaker

I personally like analog gauges, like above.  Below is one version of digital gauges in a Pinto dash, not sure if they are Dakota brand.  I believe the photo was from a ebay 73 Pinto with a SEFI V8.
Jerry J - Jupiter, Florida

qikpnto

77 V8 Cruzin Wagon Custom

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

I find it hard to believe that no one has the Dakota digital dash in there car. I'm looking 4 someone that can say good bad about the dash please!! Help me in the decision. Keep trying to install old mechanical stuff or go Dige?????????
1977 408W stroked pinto

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

Is there some one out there that can give me a personal review of the Dakota digital dash? Good,bad,ugly, bad butt,crap???
1977 408W stroked pinto

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

I tried to swap out the 80mph speedometer to the older 110mph speedometer and the white plastic that holds all the lights and gauges in place just fell apart like Lagos toys when you play with them lol. My car is now going to get the Dakota Digital dash more $$.
1977 408W stroked pinto

beaner


74 PintoWagon

Yep, the Richmond is a good piece too.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Bigtimmay

Id run a Doug Nash or now a-days Richmond 4+1 trans they make 2 versions street and race. Race is none synchroed and street isn't. Both are tough trannys pretty much only thing gunna be better is Lenco.

They usually have a lower first gear and 1.1 5th gear so highway rear gears can be used and still have tons of performance. They can even be converted to clutchless if yah ever want to go full bore drag car later on.
1978 Mercury Bobcat 2.3t swapped.Always needs more parts!

74 PintoWagon

Well, I doubt you'd ever break this with a small block.
http://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp

Friend of mine put one of these in his car, was overkill but man it sure was a blast to drive.. lol..
http://www.lencoracing.com/ST1200MasterPage.html
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

Yes I don't remember whatever website I seen that 700ft ot tourk thing you guys are grate so what manual transmission you all think I should put behind my 500+hp Windsor 5.8letor 30 over bore & a 408 Stroker crank ??
1977 408W stroked pinto

74 PintoWagon

Don't need a big block to break em, I remember a friend buying a new Camaro, he broke three of them under warranty within 5 months, after the 3rd one they told him not to come back, lol..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

amc49

Looking at post higher up......................no way would I ever say a Muncie aluminum case trans would handle 700 ft.lbs. We routinely exploded them with even fairly stock big block 454s, and race versions (Liberty, Doug Nash) custom set up to take the power. You will start losing them around 650 HP like they are made of toothpicks if you ever get good bite at the tires.

I could and did break rock crushers with 375 HP 396 in big Chevelle..............whoever spread the word about Muncie is full of it, back then ('70s) they were considered weak.......................

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

Ok got another question. So you've heard that I'm doing a hatch swap from the par shill metal to a full glass. Will I need to change the rubber? It looks the same but looks can be deceiving!!
1977 408W stroked pinto

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

Yes the break and clutch bolted right in no drilling!! So happy. Looks funny car still a automatic transmission with 3 petals lol. Just got my new aluminum Edelbrock victor Jr. 60cc heads $$$$. And the car has a air dam with minimal modification! It also now has a full glass hatch with all the trimmings for rer defrost,now has a 3 bow steering wheel the rally wheel instead of the 2 bow,and new back seat buckets the seat was 1 piece now2 separate with a piece of carpet over the drive shaft hump looking better. I love it when a car gets factory up grades!!
1977 408W stroked pinto

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

IRS is also out of the pic 2 many problems first installation & then the cast & camber issues with the wait of the car on it sages no saging with 9" better
1977 408W stroked pinto

OhSix9

extra gear count doesn't matter. in a 6 box 5 and 6 are both overdrive, it just means they give it a .83 and a .74 or .63 top gear so you can daily drive some steep rear ratios and still get decent mpg.  Modern motors don't get great gas mileage but modern trannies do  for the amount of hacking and shoe horning if beefy is a concern go t5 magnum or tko600. the extra gears just make your arm sore and at 2200 lbs with a 408 you can still run a .6x final as the big gap between 4 and 5 can be overcome with brute force and ignorance..
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

6 Speed manual not 5 speed yes t5 is good but it only has 5 gers.
1977 408W stroked pinto

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

1977 408W stroked pinto

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

Yes thanks to all picks of traney thanks !! Looking 4 A v6 car speedometer I have $???? & Did the v6 model cars have 5 lug or 4? Because I have Chilton & Hans shop manuals & thay both have 5 lug Rogers pictures in them??
1977 408W stroked pinto

Reeves1

Looks like lots a mods for the 56.

However, a T-5 can be made plenty strong enough : http://www.pro-forceperformance.com/astro_a-5.htm

A T-5 fits into a 72 , so will fit even better into the 74/75 and up cars.

Making mods to #2 car right now. Moved the wire harness up & to the left (2 1/2" hole saw).
Cutting some extra out for the left head - will be able to move an engine back 3/4" to 1" extra. Doing this due to the aluminum 351w I want to get in the future.

OhSix9

maybe this will help

Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

Reeves1

Big trans tunnel mods.
If I remember right, even a 69 - 70 Mustang needs the tunnel hogged out.

OhSix9

If you want to do the big W hurm's right. You're gonna need a hammer a welder and a cut off wheel, the 302 is a big squeeze (hood headers etc) now add another inch.  Plus an extra large shoehorn from the special tools isle. trans tunnel issues aside Having done the 408 thing in a stepside f150 I would say proceed with caution. The slightly smaller 392 and the 5 litre variant 331 vs the 347 are often better budget / daily driven engines. most big cube pistons cheat and have the oil control ring intersect the wrist pin hole which will scrub out the rings in 10 or 15k  hone it and ring it and away you go but still. Or make sure the pistons don't have this "feature" What heads are you gonna do? it takes at least afr 205's to really do it justice I think. what are your plans for the back half of the car? cage, tubs ,slicks, ladders, irs? That is a lot of low rpm torque to hook up on 94 inches of wheelbase. I don't recall if you have mentioned the above before.

OhSix'
Modest beginnings start with the single blow of a horn man..    Now when you get through with this thing every dickhead in the world is gonna wanna own it.   Do you know anything at all about the internal combustion engine?

Virgil to Sid

hurm2006

anything is possible with a welder and a big hammer, i had to cut out some of the front of my trans tunnel and rebuild it in order to use the larger belhousing
'77 Sedan:   fuel injected High Output 5.0, 5 speed, 26 MPG!!! daily driver

derekrichmond15@yahoo.com

Ok I have a 77 runabout that has a few upgrades in the future for 1 its getting a 351w bored 30 over & a 408stroker crank ,lunoty hi lift long duration cam. Well now 4 the first q t56 transmission I herd it will not fit y? I'm willing to force feed it.next the77 is a automatic will the brake & clutch peddles out of a 1980 Bobcat? Bolt in I hope .
1977 408W stroked pinto