Mini Classifieds

Pinto Fiber Glass Body Parts
Date: 01/06/2019 06:53 pm
4:11 gears for 6.75 Make offer...NEED GONE

Date: 08/01/2018 01:27 pm
LOTS OF 1971-1973 PARTS FOR SALE
Date: 02/03/2018 11:28 am
Pinto hubcap
Date: 01/07/2017 08:40 pm
Anyone scrapping a 1980
Date: 03/13/2020 08:46 pm
Mirror
Date: 04/15/2020 01:42 pm
WANTED Hood Prop Rod
Date: 01/17/2017 02:47 pm
New front rotors and everything for '74-'80
Date: 08/02/2019 04:18 pm
Deluxe Steering Wheel
Date: 10/16/2017 08:13 am

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,573
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 656
  • Online ever: 1,722 (Yesterday at 02:19:48 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 582
  • Total: 582
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

The higher cost of a Pick Your Part 50% off sale

Started by Wittsend, June 18, 2014, 11:02:12 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

amc49

'Sometimes I think it depends on who is ringing you  up.....'

I saw that here as well in a couple places, but they quickly rotated those guys out the door. Here the yards are located in long strings, if one guy does that you walk down 30 feet to find the guy who doesn't. One guy in particular was a Ford yard only and specialized in only late model stuff and scarfed up all the Foci for awhile, until customers quit supporting him to make him leave. The moron actually groused if you damaged any part taking your desired one off, he expected you to buy say main wiring harness if the sensor did not come loose from it. And trying to charge like 60% of new price. Refused to torch off any major body metal at all, he expected you to buy entire unibody. The big Hispanic quotient here will not go for that gouging at all. Of course, once the limited parnerships lacking new revenue streams lock onto this potential they will buy all of them up at once and same thing will be here as well. Lots of exploitation to be done here.

The motorcycle contingent here already went that way, they all adopted factory parts manuals and then went to charging 50% of any part at dealer and half of them promptly folded. The others left are way too high. I used to frequent them all the time but cost pried me loose fast. Went from say $300 motor to as much as $1500 for motorcycle engine (even single cylinder) overnight, you can kiss that idea dead on arrival.

Back in the '80s there was an AMC only yard that figured out he had a segment sewed up and did same thing and parts tripled overnight, not so fast, he forgot how small the segment was and his clientele dried up overnight to fold him. Before he did that he had plenty of business. I was hoping another yard owner would buy it up to go back to the norm but it got bought by someone out of state and all parts shipped elsewhere.

blupinto

The junkyards might also be getting wise to people who get parts "dirt cheap' and turn around and sell them via ebay, craigslist, etc.  to make a profit.

One can never have too many Pintos!

Wittsend

And, next time you go be prepared to pay an extra $2.00 for admission to the Primo Yard.  All the "classic" cars are now being moved there. Hummm..., I wonder if they then charge you tax on the $4.00 (total) admission price???   With things like rear ends I think it is best to buy them "drum to Drum." That way you are less likely to be nickeled and dimed.

  But, yea, I ran into a guy that told me I'd probably pay extra for the rails on my seats. And then, as I was waiting to check out I thought "probably the headrest too." But in this recent trip they did not. The seats were $19.99 each ($2 core each) and $51 out the door (Taxes and other fees).  Sometimes I think it depends on who is ringing you  up (or in some cases wrings you out).

I think in the past the perspective was "We're a junk yard. People come here looking to save money." They were car guys. They got "it." Now I think the perspective is, "We're a corporation, profits are everything."  I overheard someone saying that LKQ Corp. is owned by a bunch of lawyers. That pretty much says it all.  Want to see more. Look at how LKQ Corp. has "record" results.  And me, no raise in 7 years - and my work hours cut. http://www.lkqcorp.com/us/en/news/lkq-corporation-announces-record-results-for-second-quarter-2013.aspx

71HANTO

I've been a semi-regular at the Sun Valley Pick-Your-Parts and the others (including Willington and Anaheim) for more than 20 years. Gone are the days when there were 2 rows of Pintos, 5 or six first gen Mustangs, etc,etc. Just 4 years ago I picked up 2 T-5s for $70 each. The last time I went to Sun Valley on a 1/2 price day I was shocked at the check out window at the prices (I had not been in a couple of years). In the old days, if you bought a rear end, you paid one price. Now you pay for the axles, backing plates, brake cylinders, and BRAKE PADS no matter however trashed. In defense of their "free enterprise system", they are dealing with the socialist republic of California CARB regulations and no doubt have skyrocketing liability insurance rates. Even with the higher prices, there was no shortage of people lining up to get in or at the checkout windows. Welcome to the new business model. I'm just glad I was able to get most of what I needed for my 3 old cars before their prices really went up big time. They still make sense for the little knic-knac parts that don't make it on Evil-bay so I'm glad I still have the option.


71HANTO
"Life is a series of close ones...'til the last one"...cfpjr

dga57

Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

dianne

Vehicles:

- 1972 Plymouth Duster (To be a Pro Street)
- 1973 Ford Pinto wagon (registered ride 195)
- 1976 Mustang II mini-stock
- 1978 Mustang King Cobra II
- 1979 Ford Pinto Runabout
- 1986 Chevy K5 Blazer
- 1997 Suzuki Marauder

FORD: Federal Ownership Respectfully Denied

Wittsend

I search for the California explanation of why the core tax is not refunded. I couldn't find it. But apparently Ohio does the same thing and here is their explanation. I assume California's reasons are similar.

States that do *not* refund sales tax when only the core is returned:
California
Ohio

These states essentially view the core charge/deposit as an anticipated rebate. Ohio's wording specifically refers to the core charge as 'part of the aggregate value' of the merchandise in question. Think of all those mail-in rebate offers that you may or may not follow-through on completing. You pay full price in the store, plus sales tax, and then ask the manufacturer for your rebate check. Have you ever expected the manufacturer to reimburse you also for the sales tax that rebate would have saved you in the store?

A search of the Environmental Fee seems to associate it with the cost (to the yard) of dealing with hazardous waste.  Just for clarification the Environmental Fee is not applied to the core. It is applied the item purchased.

74 PintoWagon

Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

dga57

Quote from: amc49 on June 20, 2014, 01:23:52 AM
Man I'm glad I don't do business there.

That makes at least two of us!!!

Dwayne :o
Pinto Car Club of America - Serving the Ford Pinto enthusiast since 1999.

amc49

I'm sitting here thinking about the non-refund of tax on core and wondering if that is even legal. Here in Texas it dang sure ain't; you must refund tax on any cores returned. State law..............can't collect tax on what turns out to be a non-existent sale. That's collecting money out of thin air.

Just like Walmart here, they started charging tax out of the blue on daily newspapers, I reported them to the state (illegal) and they stopped it pretty quick. They'll do it forever if no one complains.

Thinking more too about the environmental fee, if you bring core back there should be none at all since the net is a zero/zero there. I could see environmental if maybe you didn't bring core back, instead dumping cracked block on side of road.

Man I'm glad I don't do business there.

Clydesdale80

Atleast you guys have yards like that still.  In Iowa we have to pay the guy at the salvage yard to take the part off for us.  Also steel turns to rust in the blink of an eye here so pretty much anything older than 1990 has been scrapped  :'( .  I struggled to find more than a couple yards in the whole state with 80's mustangs (to take a T5 from).

I'm done complaining now, proceed  :D
Bought a 1978 hatchback to be my first car.

Wittsend

Yep, and the core fees aren't cheap. You have 10 days to return the core (to their satisfaction) and as stated can't return on any sales day.

Core Fee (example):
Short block          $35
Long block           $45
Complete engine $65

And as mentioned the State taxes the core and then does NOT return the tax when you return the core. In the case of the "complete engine" the core tax is $5.85. So, if for one reason or another you don't have or can't return the core in time your out $70.85 In addition to the cost of the engine.  Then there is the environmental fee. That is hard to get a handle on how they price that. But, it is roughly 5%. Based on the 'complete engine" price of $229.99 it is around $15.

So, assume you buy a "complete" (which really isn't complete) engine, but have no core (or can't return it in the 10 day window):
Engine $229.99, Tax (@9%) $20.70, Core $65, Core Tax (@9%) $5.85 and environmental fee (estimate) $15 Total is $336.54 That is $106 above the "engine" price. Is it possibly you might wonder why so many people move from California to Texas?  There it is (and we won't even talk housing costs!).

Even a common steel wheel they have a $1.00 core charge ($5 for aluminum wheel).  Here is a link to their full list of regular prices, core charges and warranty (added) price.

http://www.lkqpickyourpart.com/locations/LKQ_Pick_Your_Part_-_Sun_Valley-263/prices/


amc49

Wow, nothing like that here at all, the price is what it is no tax even. And never heard of a junkyard 'core' charge before.

Wittsend

Recently I made two purchases at a Pick Your Part 50% off sale. I ran the receipts through a percentage calculator and came up with these results.   My used, 205-60-13" tire at $6.99 was $8.44 out the door. Taxes and environmental fees (whatever they are) represented 17.8% of the cost. The cost goes even higher when you factor in that Pick Your Part says, "They will throw you out" if they find you removing tires from rims yourself.  So, that fee is $3.44 for them to remove the tire. Thus, all fees beyond the cost of the actual tire represent 41.6% of the total cost.   

I also bought two seats. They were $39.99. There were the taxes and environmental fees - plus a $4.00 core charge (also taxed). The out the door price was $51.00. 21.6 % was the taxes, fees and core charge.  Note that cores are not returnable on the sale days. If the sale runs Friday through Monday (a Holiday) you can't return the core until Tuesday, even if you bought the item on Friday.  Gas round trip from the house to the yard is at least $10 and the time spent is about 2 hours. This pretty much negates ever returning a core. Oh, and the State does not refund the tax charged on the core.