Mini Classifieds

1977 Pinto for parts

Date: 10/10/2018 06:25 pm
pinto wagon parts
Date: 12/19/2019 01:43 pm
Want seals for Pinto wagon "flip out" windows
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door sills
Date: 03/14/2020 03:20 pm
Need 76' coupe rear Glass and Front Grille
Date: 07/20/2017 01:23 am
Need Throttle Solenoid for 1978 Pinto Sedan 2300ccm
Date: 05/03/2024 05:37 am
SOME PARTS FOR SALE
Date: 01/11/2017 10:45 am
1979 Pinto Rear Bumper
Date: 03/26/2021 03:26 pm
Need flywheel for 73 2.0 engine.
Date: 10/05/2017 02:26 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

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My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

3rd attempt! Oregon parts?

Started by nlualum82, June 26, 2005, 05:51:44 PM

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econoaddict

Shedd cafe?? lol
My pinto doesnt like to drive right now, well forward anyway. I guess I could hit reverse as its only a few miles.
I live right down the road, I am in halsey.
From shedd go to halsey, left at the 4way stop, cross the tracks, take the second right and go one block.
Pinto in the driveway, one black 89 stang (pinto donor) and a BUNCH of early (61-67) ford econoline vans/pickups. If you miss those look for the purple doors on the house  :o
We should all get together some day and do some  bench racing and what not.
Dean
'75 pinto very soon to have
302, C4, maverick rear

bricker4864

I stopped in at Pick a Part, B&R, and Aardvark in Albany today on my way home from school. No pintos, but there was a nice '77 m2 at aardvark that had been t-boned in the driver's side. Interior still looked ok. 2.3 auto 6 3/4 rear. The guy said it runs fine just has a crushed driver's side. has power brake/steering if anyone is looking for that stuff. I probably won't get to the Corvallis/Eugene yards till next week.

How many pintos do we have on here within driving distance of the Shedd Cafe? It'd be cool to see a few of them there on Thursdays. I haven't been in years, but there used to be a pinto wagon across the street. I wonder if anyone has rescued it?

nlualum82

Amazing how many of us are in proximity! If you come and go south on 99w you probably passed my Bobcat alot. I caught a glimpse of it in a trailer park parking lot that was back out of sight until you were almost past it. I stopped in a couple of times, the second time, despite no indications that it was for sale, I knocked on some doors and owned it an hour later!
    Are you in Halsey? My daughter's boyfriend says a friend of his down there is a real motorhead and he would like to rebuild my 2.3.
   Little doubt our sons know each other - not the biggest school!
   I had a busy 4th weekend and my son has excitement but no focus right now for the project. I need to check out the converter and the timing. A rebuild wouldn't hurt anyway, and would take care of all the old sludge on the block.
Gary

     
   

econoaddict

Hey :)
My son is in PHS and I went to school with "Mr. Ballard" aka scott as I know him. Great guy.
I work in corvallis at the Firestone there, I am the service manager, swing in sometime and bs a bit.
I am getting ready to start a father/son pinto project myself and will have a pile of parts left over.
We are installing 89stang 5.0 with FI, also using the 8.8 rear and have a very sweet c4.
Let me know if I can be of any help.
Dean
'75 pinto very soon to have
302, C4, maverick rear

billnall

Perhaps the timing belt has jumped a notch or 2.
You might pull the cover and check to see if the marks are still lined up.
Ford Parts Man
Bill

bricker4864

Mr Ballard and Mr Dealy would get a kick out of the car I'm sure. I graduated in 04 and created a fuel system as my senior project.
If he is going to use the car as his senior project the needs to figure out specifically what he wants his project to be. I had two friends who completely tore down engines, rebuilt them, and put them back in the cars. Also had a friend who learned to sew and reupholstered his car and put neon and a sound system and the like in it.
The thing about the senior project is it has to be specific enough for the panel to evaluate, there has to be a product (something they can see that you accomplished or completed), and the panel has to feel that the student completed the project not the mentor.
You've got a while to figure it all out, but I'd keep a lookout for someone who could act as a mentor.
As for the buggy engine, personally, I would pass. I'd go for a rebuild.

nlualum82

My son will be a sophomore at Philomath High and wants to see if he can figure out a way to make this his senior project.
    I wouldn't change or rebuild just for performance - not into it anymore, the engine is just bad. If I was extremely lucky, it is just a clogged converter, but the previous owner said he heard a noise and saw a puff of smoke and it has struggled since. That's when he cut back and eventually stopped driving it.
    A little trouble starting but always will, shakes like a wet dog anywhere near idle, revs slow, builds speed slowly, don't know how fast it would go, but my guess is not very!
    The older Californian was real proud of all the details of his engine, quoted a lot of high dollar prices. I asked about streetability, especially starting and idle, he walked around the trailer, bumped the key and it started right up, loud, but not too much, started and idled without touching the gas, had a nice deep sound with a slight cam lope. I'd hate to invade his privacy for nothing, but if there are any serious buyers for a $2500.00 2.3 with all the trimmings and professional builders, I've got his number.
    I'm wondering if I got my lazy butt out there and unhooked the exhaust at the converter, if I might be rewarded by a proper running engine - have my doubts, given the story the ex-owner gave. The tranny seems to shift tight, but need to feel it with a good running motor, brakes are great, as is steering (still want a manual R & P), all the lights seem to work, has new tires! and I drove it home for $200.
    A fresh engine would be a good investment in a long and happy partnership, just a toss-up as to whether I'm cheaper than poor or vice-versa. Neither is a good mix with not being a good mechanic!
Gary

   

bricker4864

I ran my engine the way I got it(plus a few bolt-ons) for 2 light race seasons up to about 6000. When we pulled the head to change cams it looked like it had been rebuilt somewhere in the past. .030 pistons I think. It's still never had anything more than the head pulled off and it regularly went up against a 7400 rev limiter till last summer. It's even been over 8k a few times when dad decided we should "try out the new rear end" (8" 4.62 gears, mini spool, 4" street tires in a Benton county February)Yea, the only place he gets to drive it now is from the pits to the staging lanes!
Anyway besides all my rambling, the point was that if it runs okay, maybe you don't need to rebuild the entire engine for a street car? A lot of improvement can be had with a new exhaust and intake on the 2.3s without going internal. The rear end I would guess it's a 6 3/4". Look at the car from the back. If you can see the bolts holding the differential cover on, then it's a 6 3/4". If it looks round and smooth and the bolts are on the front side it's probably an 8". I don't have a manual with codes handy right now. It seems like there was a decoder on the site somewhere. As for the transmission, I don't do automatics. I don't drive 'em and I don't race 'em. Takes all the fun away!
240 hp is a lot for an n/a. does it have a turbo? sounds like a bit much to be streetable, but maybe? I get myself into enough trouble with the 120 or so hp that I had.
What school are you at that will give credit for this?

nlualum82

Thanks, I appreciate it, Karena. As a newbie to the process, would you explain default to me - good or bad thing?
Ran into a Californian who is spending some time at Sand Lake with his buggy.
    He has a very built 2.3, quite impressive, claims 240 hp and many thousands, sounds like he has the Esslinger crews home phones on speed dial.
   He's yanking it for a supercharged Buick V6 when he gets home and will sell the Ford for $2500!
    He's from around El Chico.
Gary

bricker4864

Last I checked B&R had some engines for sale if you want to go that route. About a year ago the Corvallis yard had a '74 2.3 wagon with a 4 spd. looked like they pulled it out of a field. I grabbed the header and a few other parts off it. I know there were lots of other 2.3 cars in the yard at the time. I haven't been there for a long time, but I'll be going back soon looking for a Chevy truck cab. I'll take a look around. Also they used to default the pintos down to the B&R yard in Eugene. I don't know if they still do, but it might be worth a call or trip if you need other parts.

Karena

nlualum82

Thanks, Tim, I have the C3 . Any thing I should lmow about these? Should I obtain a C4 if it becomes available? Will it bolt right up?
    If the C3 is trouble free I won't worry about it.
What about the rest of the code? Is there a translation table somewhere? I have a rub where the rearend is marked but I think it says 4. What would that mean?
    I don't know if rebuilds come easy enough for me!!! Was there any machining involved?
   Hey, Tigger, Let me know if you come across any good deals on a motor that would get me driving around worry free.
    Thanks,
            Gary

sagesunrise

I checked on the map, Tony, and they said they are working on getting it put back on the site.  I guess it was not compatible in it's format with the new upgrade.  I agree, I am not happy with the upgrade, but hopefully they are working out the bugs for us. :-\
Tiffany Morrison
'71 Pinto Sedan 2.0, '51 Willys CJ3A, '75 Ford F250, '70 Ford Maverick, '68 GMC Value Van (aka the Hippie Van), and a 1947 Flxible Clipper RV conversion Bus, 1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor, 1969 VW Baja Bug

Pintony

Hey Tim,
That is the price of not having to log in every time. "I guess"
I do not like the upgrade.
I'd rather log in every time and have the Member map back!
The up-grade stinks!
From Pintony

TIGGER

I am in Beaverton.  Let me know what you are looking for and I might be able to find it for you.
79 4cyl Wagon
73 Turbo HB
78 Cruising Wagon (sold 8/6/11)

tim1223

   P.s.   I had to try 4 times to post that message!

tim1223

Hello,  To i.d. the tranny you can look at the vehicle certification label.  This is located on the drivers side door jam.  Look on the bottom row forth spot in it should read TRANS.       The codes are as follows=

     5 === 4 speed manual

     E === 4 speed manual

    W === C4 automatic

    V === C3 automatic transmission

    Why dont you try to rebuild this motor yourself?  I have the HAYNES Manual Pinto/Bobcat 1975 thru 1980,  This manual will walk you thru every step.  This would be an easy little engine to learn on.  Hope that  I could help Good Luck Tim


nlualum82

Hi! new here and to the whole experience. My son wanted a project for us, and may even be able to get school credit for it. Has to be cheap!
    I just brought home a '75 Bobcat with 2.3 and auto. - exciting drive, can't get a better car for $200 I bet, but has a bad idle, weak acceleration. I'm no mechanic and need to know how to get a price on a rebuild and what would be fair. I am not committed to the original engine and would take advice on remanufactured engines and their availability, the pros and cons of used engines, etc.
     I haven't been able to tell who may be close to me. We are near Oregon State U. in Corvallis and I could pull my small trailer up and down I-5 a reasonable distance to fetch a deal on parts to heavy to ship practically.
     Perhaps someone could tell me if I have a C3 or how to tell?
I am not much of a mechanic, twisting wrenches and directly replacing external parts is my limit.
     I need to know about interchangeability. What year engines are direct bolt-ins, which would need different flywheels, etc?
     Stock hp is fine with me, but I like eliminating clutter and complexity. I may get a nice valve cover and air cleaner to dress up the engine bay, and though my power steering works perfectly, it feels over-assisted and unneccessary - anyone got a line on a goo manual rack & pinion to eliminate the pump from my engine bay?
    This will be my 3rd try to post - got a server error message the first 2 times and all my typing was gone!
Gary