Mini Classifieds

1976 Ford Pinto Wagon - just rebuilt. 302 v8

Date: 11/11/2019 03:38 pm
Need 77 or 78 Cruising Wagon Speedometer Tachometer Assembly
Date: 06/24/2020 06:12 am
Electrical
Date: 03/29/2017 11:37 am
NOS Sedan decklid

Date: 10/23/2019 11:51 am
Early V8 swap headers, damaged, fixable?
Date: 10/25/2019 03:30 pm
Ford Speedometer Hall-Effect sensor with 6 foot speedometer cable

Date: 12/30/2022 01:30 pm
2.0 Mickey Thompson SUPER RARE cam cover and belt guard
Date: 08/27/2018 11:11 am
Offenhauser 6114 dp
Date: 09/12/2017 10:26 pm
1976 Pinto runabout

Date: 03/28/2017 08:14 pm

Why the Ford Pinto didn’t suck

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suckThe Ford Pinto was born a low-rent, stumpy thing in Dearborn 40 years ago and grew to become one of the most infamous cars in history. The thing is that it didn't actually suck. Really.

Even after four decades, what's the first thing that comes to mind when most people think of the Ford Pinto? Ka-BLAM! The truth is the Pinto was more than that — and this is the story of how the exploding Pinto became a pre-apocalyptic narrative, how the myth was exposed, and why you should race one.

The Pinto was CEO Lee Iacocca's baby, a homegrown answer to the threat of compact-sized economy cars from Japan and Germany, the sales of which had grown significantly throughout the 1960s. Iacocca demanded the Pinto cost under $2,000, and weigh under 2,000 pounds. It was an all-hands-on-deck project, and Ford got it done in 25 months from concept to production.

Building its own small car meant Ford's buyers wouldn't have to hew to the Japanese government's size-tamping regulations; Ford would have the freedom to choose its own exterior dimensions and engine sizes based on market needs (as did Chevy with the Vega and AMC with the Gremlin). And people cold dug it.

When it was unveiled in late 1970 (ominously on September 11), US buyers noted the Pinto's pleasant shape — bringing to mind a certain tailless amphibian — and interior layout hinting at a hipster's sunken living room. Some call it one of the ugliest cars ever made, but like fans of Mischa Barton, Pinto lovers care not what others think. With its strong Kent OHV four (a distant cousin of the Lotus TwinCam), the Pinto could at least keep up with its peers, despite its drum brakes and as long as one looked past its Russian-roulette build quality.

But what of the elephant in the Pinto's room? Yes, the whole blowing-up-on-rear-end-impact thing. It all started a little more than a year after the Pinto's arrival.

 

Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Company

On May 28, 1972, Mrs. Lilly Gray and 13-year-old passenger Richard Grimshaw, set out from Anaheim, California toward Barstow in Gray's six-month-old Ford Pinto. Gray had been having trouble with the car since new, returning it to the dealer several times for stalling. After stopping in San Bernardino for gasoline, Gray got back on I-15 and accelerated to around 65 mph. Approaching traffic congestion, she moved from the left lane to the middle lane, where the car suddenly stalled and came to a stop. A 1962 Ford Galaxie, the driver unable to stop or swerve in time, rear-ended the Pinto. The Pinto's gas tank was driven forward, and punctured on the bolts of the differential housing.

As the rear wheel well sections separated from the floor pan, a full tank of fuel sprayed straight into the passenger compartment, which was engulfed in flames. Gray later died from congestive heart failure, a direct result of being nearly incinerated, while Grimshaw was burned severely and left permanently disfigured. Grimshaw and the Gray family sued Ford Motor Company (among others), and after a six-month jury trial, verdicts were returned against Ford Motor Company. Ford did not contest amount of compensatory damages awarded to Grimshaw and the Gray family, and a jury awarded the plaintiffs $125 million, which the judge in the case subsequently reduced to the low seven figures. Other crashes and other lawsuits followed.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Mother Jones and Pinto Madness

In 1977, Mark Dowie, business manager of Mother Jones magazine published an article on the Pinto's "exploding gas tanks." It's the same article in which we first heard the chilling phrase, "How much does Ford think your life is worth?" Dowie had spent days sorting through filing cabinets at the Department of Transportation, examining paperwork Ford had produced as part of a lobbying effort to defeat a federal rear-end collision standard. That's where Dowie uncovered an innocuous-looking memo entitled "Fatalities Associated with Crash-Induced Fuel Leakage and Fires."

The Car Talk blog describes why the memo proved so damning.

In it, Ford's director of auto safety estimated that equipping the Pinto with [an] $11 part would prevent 180 burn deaths, 180 serious burn injuries and 2,100 burned cars, for a total cost of $137 million. Paying out $200,000 per death, $67,000 per injury and $700 per vehicle would cost only $49.15 million.

The government would, in 1978, demand Ford recall the million or so Pintos on the road to deal with the potential for gas-tank punctures. That "smoking gun" memo would become a symbol for corporate callousness and indifference to human life, haunting Ford (and other automakers) for decades. But despite the memo's cold calculations, was Ford characterized fairly as the Kevorkian of automakers?

Perhaps not. In 1991, A Rutgers Law Journal report [PDF] showed the total number of Pinto fires, out of 2 million cars and 10 years of production, stalled at 27. It was no more than any other vehicle, averaged out, and certainly not the thousand or more suggested by Mother Jones.

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

The big rebuttal, and vindication?

But what of the so-called "smoking gun" memo Dowie had unearthed? Surely Ford, and Lee Iacocca himself, were part of a ruthless establishment who didn't care if its customers lived or died, right? Well, not really. Remember that the memo was a lobbying document whose audience was intended to be the NHTSA. The memo didn't refer to Pintos, or even Ford products, specifically, but American cars in general. It also considered rollovers not rear-end collisions. And that chilling assignment of value to a human life? Indeed, it was federal regulators who often considered that startling concept in their own deliberations. The value figure used in Ford's memo was the same one regulators had themselves set forth.

In fact, measured by occupant fatalities per million cars in use during 1975 and 1976, the Pinto's safety record compared favorably to other subcompacts like the AMC Gremlin, Chevy Vega, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

And what of Mother Jones' Dowie? As the Car Talk blog points out, Dowie now calls the Pinto, "a fabulous vehicle that got great gas mileage," if not for that one flaw: The legendary "$11 part."

Why the Ford Pinto didn't suck

Pinto Racing Doesn't Suck

Back in 1974, Car and Driver magazine created a Pinto for racing, an exercise to prove brains and common sense were more important than an unlimited budget and superstar power. As Patrick Bedard wrote in the March, 1975 issue of Car and Driver, "It's a great car to drive, this Pinto," referring to the racer the magazine prepared for the Goodrich Radial Challenge, an IMSA-sanctioned road racing series for small sedans.

Why'd they pick a Pinto over, say, a BMW 2002 or AMC Gremlin? Current owner of the prepped Pinto, Fox Motorsports says it was a matter of comparing the car's frontal area, weight, piston displacement, handling, wheel width, and horsepower to other cars of the day that would meet the entry criteria. (Racers like Jerry Walsh had by then already been fielding Pintos in IMSA's "Baby Grand" class.)

Bedard, along with Ron Nash and company procured a 30,000-mile 1972 Pinto two-door to transform. In addition to safety, chassis and differential mods, the team traded a 200-pound IMSA weight penalty for the power gain of Ford's 2.3-liter engine, which Bedard said "tipped the scales" in the Pinto's favor. But according to Bedard, it sounds like the real advantage was in the turns, thanks to some add-ons from Mssrs. Koni and Bilstein.

"The Pinto's advantage was cornering ability," Bedard wrote. "I don't think there was another car in the B. F. Goodrich series that was quicker through the turns on a dry track. The steering is light and quick, and the suspension is direct and predictable in a way that street cars never can be. It never darts over bumps, the axle is perfectly controlled and the suspension doesn't bottom."

Need more proof of the Pinto's lack of suck? Check out the SCCA Washington, DC region's spec-Pinto series.

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 139,575
  • Total Topics: 16,267
  • Online today: 2,670
  • Online ever: 2,670 (Today at 01:57:20 AM)
Users Online
  • Users: 0
  • Guests: 169
  • Total: 169
F&I...more

My Somewhat Begrudging Apology To Ford Pinto

ford-pinto.jpg

I never thought I’d offer an apology to the Ford Pinto, but I guess I owe it one.

I had a Pinto in the 1970s. Actually, my wife bought it a few months before we got married. The car became sort of a wedding dowry. So did the remaining 80% of the outstanding auto loan.

During a relatively brief ownership, the Pinto’s repair costs exceeded the original price of the car. It wasn’t a question of if it would fail, but when. And where. Sometimes, it simply wouldn’t start in the driveway. Other times, it would conk out at a busy intersection.

It ranks as the worst car I ever had. That was back when some auto makers made quality something like Job 100, certainly not Job 1.

Despite my bad Pinto experience, I suppose an apology is in order because of a recent blog I wrote. It centered on Toyota’s sudden-acceleration problems. But in discussing those, I invoked the memory of exploding Pintos, perpetuating an inaccuracy.

The widespread allegation was that, due to a design flaw, Pinto fuel tanks could readily blow up in rear-end collisions, setting the car and its occupants afire.

People started calling the Pinto “the barbecue that seats four.” And the lawsuits spread like wild fire.

Responding to my blog, a Ford (“I would very much prefer to keep my name out of print”) manager contacted me to set the record straight.

He says exploding Pintos were a myth that an investigation debunked nearly 20 years ago. He cites Gary Schwartz’ 1991 Rutgers Law Review paper that cut through the wild claims and examined what really happened.

Schwartz methodically determined the actual number of Pinto rear-end explosion deaths was not in the thousands, as commonly thought, but 27.

In 1975-76, the Pinto averaged 310 fatalities a year. But the similar-size Toyota Corolla averaged 313, the VW Beetle 374 and the Datsun 1200/210 came in at 405.

Yes, there were cases such as a Pinto exploding while parked on the shoulder of the road and hit from behind by a speeding pickup truck. But fiery rear-end collisions comprised only 0.6% of all fatalities back then, and the Pinto had a lower death rate in that category than the average compact or subcompact, Schwartz said after crunching the numbers. Nor was there anything about the Pinto’s rear-end design that made it particularly unsafe.

Not content to portray the Pinto as an incendiary device, ABC’s 20/20 decided to really heat things up in a 1978 broadcast containing “startling new developments.” ABC breathlessly reported that, not just Pintos, but fullsize Fords could blow up if hit from behind.

20/20 thereupon aired a video, shot by UCLA researchers, showing a Ford sedan getting rear-ended and bursting into flames. A couple of problems with that video:

One, it was shot 10 years earlier.

Two, the UCLA researchers had openly said in a published report that they intentionally rigged the vehicle with an explosive.

That’s because the test was to determine how a crash fire affected the car’s interior, not to show how easily Fords became fire balls. They said they had to use an accelerant because crash blazes on their own are so rare. They had tried to induce a vehicle fire in a crash without using an igniter, but failed.

ABC failed to mention any of that when correspondent Sylvia Chase reported on “Ford’s secret rear-end crash tests.”

We could forgive ABC for that botched reporting job. After all, it was 32 years ago. But a few weeks ago, ABC, in another one of its rigged auto exposes, showed video of a Toyota apparently accelerating on its own.

Turns out, the “runaway” vehicle had help from an associate professor. He built a gizmo with an on-off switch to provide acceleration on demand. Well, at least ABC didn’t show the Toyota slamming into a wall and bursting into flames.

In my blog, I also mentioned that Ford’s woes got worse in the 1970s with the supposed uncovering of an internal memo by a Ford attorney who allegedly calculated it would cost less to pay off wrongful-death suits than to redesign the Pinto.

It became known as the “Ford Pinto memo,” a smoking gun. But Schwartz looked into that, too. He reported the memo did not pertain to Pintos or any Ford products. Instead, it had to do with American vehicles in general.

It dealt with rollovers, not rear-end crashes. It did not address tort liability at all, let alone advocate it as a cheaper alternative to a redesign. It put a value to human life because federal regulators themselves did so.

The memo was meant for regulators’ eyes only. But it was off to the races after Mother Jones magazine got a hold of a copy and reported what wasn’t the case.

The exploding-Pinto myth lives on, largely because more Americans watch 20/20 than read the Rutgers Law Review. One wonders what people will recollect in 2040 about Toyota’s sudden accelerations, which more and more look like driver error and, in some cases, driver shams.

So I guess I owe the Pinto an apology. But it’s half-hearted, because my Pinto gave me much grief, even though, as the Ford manager notes, “it was a cheap car, built long ago and lots of things have changed, almost all for the better.”

Here goes: If I said anything that offended you, Pinto, I’m sorry. And thanks for not blowing up on me.

head bolts

Started by YAYPINTOS, April 10, 2014, 07:30:12 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Pinturbo75

 this one,,,,, 8.23 at 160 with only 21-22 lbs of boost..... test run,, he usually runs 40 lbs of boost or better..... hes shooting for 7s....and he let out at the 1000 foot mark...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e-kxluQL78
75 turbo pinto trunk, megasquirt2, 133lb injectors, bv head, precision 6265 turbo, 3" exhaust,bobs log, 8.8, t5,, subframe connectors, 65 mm tb, frontmount ic, traction bars, 255 lph walbro,
73 turbo pinto panel wagon, ms1, 85 lb inj, fmic, holset hy35, 3" exhaust, msd, bov,

Rob3865

Man that thing is crazy. I bet it puts a lot of V8 cars on the trailer too.

Reeves1

Guy in Calgary has one turning  9.79@137
Made me wonder why I'd go with a million lb B2 engine !

http://www.performance-shop.com/showthread.php?t=28289
6 pages of info

Rob3865

Great thread! Thanks for all the info yall........and I've never seen one, but I know they are out there, but ya got any video of one of them 500 HP 2.3s? I'd love to hear one. That's gotta sound shagnasty. lol

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: Reeves1 on April 11, 2014, 09:23:07 AM
Make sure you get the right grades for the job.

For example, the cheaper 8740 rod bolts were put in my engine from the CA build. Known to fail.
It is now getting the better up-graded bolts (2000 ?).
The old original main cap bolts were used in the CA build.
They are being replaced with studs.
etc....
ALWAYS do.

I use L19 rod bolts.. ;)
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

74 PintoWagon

Quote from: Pinturbo75 on April 11, 2014, 10:26:20 AM
the bad thing about arp studs and the 2.3 is the arp studs don't extend far enough into the block like the factory bolts do and this causes the deck to pull up and distort the mating surface.... this has been documented  and discussed at length on turboford.... several of the guys making 500 hp + have gone back to 12 point factory bolts because they don't have this issue and have a better clamping force than the arp studs..... arp was contacted about this issue but they choose not to do anything about this ....I guess they are ok with the issue as long as people are still buying the product they currently offer.
Thanks for the heads up, good to know..
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Pinturbo75

the bad thing about arp studs and the 2.3 is the arp studs don't extend far enough into the block like the factory bolts do and this causes the deck to pull up and distort the mating surface.... this has been documented  and discussed at length on turboford.... several of the guys making 500 hp + have gone back to 12 point factory bolts because they don't have this issue and have a better clamping force than the arp studs..... arp was contacted about this issue but they choose not to do anything about this ....I guess they are ok with the issue as long as people are still buying the product they currently offer.
75 turbo pinto trunk, megasquirt2, 133lb injectors, bv head, precision 6265 turbo, 3" exhaust,bobs log, 8.8, t5,, subframe connectors, 65 mm tb, frontmount ic, traction bars, 255 lph walbro,
73 turbo pinto panel wagon, ms1, 85 lb inj, fmic, holset hy35, 3" exhaust, msd, bov,

Reeves1

Quote from: 74 PintoWagon on April 11, 2014, 08:13:02 AM
Any time I replace bolts I use ARP.

Make sure you get the right grades for the job.

For example, the cheaper 8740 rod bolts were put in my engine from the CA build. Known to fail.
It is now getting the better up-graded bolts (2000 ?).
The old original main cap bolts were used in the CA build.
They are being replaced with studs.
etc....

74 PintoWagon

Any time I replace bolts I use ARP.
Art
65 Falcon 2DR 200 IL6 with C4.

Reeves1

Quote from: Rob3865 on April 11, 2014, 01:10:34 AM
If they are old, I get new ones. It's cheap insurance. Whether they're torque to yield or not, they stretch. I especially dislike the head bolts in all of the newer V8s from about 1990 forward. While there is no standard to replace them, they look cheap and feel light. I cannot stand them. I will be using new ARP head bolts on my 302.

Check length.
I read the "kit" for B2s have some the wrong length.

amc49

They ARE lighter, they are smaller in diameter to be able to stretch. The Focus ones are like 3/8 (probably 10 mm.) and look puny.

Early on Ford was advocating reusing TTY up to twice if you measured them for the degree of stretch, 'beyond this point do not reuse' and gave a spec number; then the marketing guys won out by saying 'why are you not selling the parts??? And get rid of the repair variable!'

I reuse normal bolts but pay careful attention to torque pullup, if they feel weak they get tossed. Other than that I have no trouble using 40 year old bolts, depending on how many times they've been used. The block threads will be as weak as the bolts, really more since the block iron not as hard.

Using TTY on everything just makes full engine rebuild that much more disheartening, you gotta spend all that money now for simple bolts. Now they use them on even same/similar metals like main caps to block, and connecting rods, bust a rod loose simply to check bearings and you're looking at new bolts, and since new rod bolts really require remachining the big end to make them right then the whole thing turns into a mess. Obvious someone here is trying to scare you into buying whole new engine or even better, car. The day of the throwaway engine is upon us.

Rob3865

If they are old, I get new ones. It's cheap insurance. Whether they're torque to yield or not, they stretch. I especially dislike the head bolts in all of the newer V8s from about 1990 forward. While there is no standard to replace them, they look cheap and feel light. I cannot stand them. I will be using new ARP head bolts on my 302.

Pinto5.0

German 2.0 & 12 point 2.3 are reusable & are actually preferred over some Chinese parts store replacements. If you need a set search Ebay for original Ford ones. There are plenty on there & they are reasonably priced.

I have TTY in my 95 Neon & had to buy new ones to do my head gasket. They are single use & get tossed anytime they are loosened.
'73 Sedan (I'll get to it)
'76 Wagon driver
'80 hatch(Restoring to be my son's 1st car)~Callisto
'71 half hatch (bucket list Pinto)~Ghost
'72 sedan 5.0/T5~Lemon Squeeze

amc49

Look at your final torque spec, if it ends in an ANGLE (90 degrees, 120 degrees, etc.) rather than ft.lbs., it is a TTY (torque to yield) bolt and intended to only be used one time. They deform permanently to get that angle and why the angle is necessary, the bolt quits increasing in torque since it has begun to pull in half. TTY bolts are commonly used on parts that swell a whole lot more when hot, like aluminum heads or blocks. The prestretching allows the bolt to stretch more in use but they pretty much die doing it. Why you don't re-use them, You're just begging to blow gaskets doing so, they will not pull up again as tight as before.

I flat hate them and having to buy new bolts but a necessary evil, they DO work very well. Unpop the torque on them and you'll see what I mean. They take a solid set and then knocking them loose will pop the wrench in your hands hard enough to sting like hell.

Pinturbo75

if you have 12 point head bolts they are reusable, the 6 point are one time use.
75 turbo pinto trunk, megasquirt2, 133lb injectors, bv head, precision 6265 turbo, 3" exhaust,bobs log, 8.8, t5,, subframe connectors, 65 mm tb, frontmount ic, traction bars, 255 lph walbro,
73 turbo pinto panel wagon, ms1, 85 lb inj, fmic, holset hy35, 3" exhaust, msd, bov,

Pintopowers

No if the heads are cast iron.. Aluminum ones i am not sure of..

SR

YAYPINTOS

is it neccisary to get new head bolts after removing the old ones? :o